Possible fix for more dps actions for Healers.

Just want to let others know I'm a casual healer, haven't healed in Extreme Trials or Raids as a healer.
Now having said that, I think there is a possible alternative to having more dps actions to healers.

Lets use WHM as an example,
Cure 1 upgrades to Cure 2. Freecure trait is deleted, and MP adjustment to Cure 2.
Medica 1 upgrades to Medica 2. Healing potency has increased and also has a regan effect.

With more healing actions replaced and more simplified, there is more room to add in more dps actions.
Basically the healing kit will have to be more simplified and the dps kit will have more depth.
This also makes sure there isn't no button bloat issues later on.
I hope this something the development team considers, but this my opinion on a solution for healers to have a more interesting dps kit. Curious what everyone else's opinions are.

I'd be more than happy with changes like this, or by making skills manage a secobdary resource more (such as addersgall or the faerie guage), or insted of simply dps actions they added buffs or debuffs--as long as there's something interesting to do when no healing is needed.

A more robust dps kit would certainly make going through the story as a healer much less soulcrushing, however.

Agreed, we definitely have too many redundant heal buttons that are not even different in meaningful ways. Some of them would make sense if MP management due to constant healing was an actual thing, but that's clearly not part of the game. Fewer healing buttons would also make actually healing easier for newbies, as there's less choice paralysis.

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Originally Posted by Super_Smiley

Just want to let others know I'm a casual healer, haven't healed in Extreme Trials or Raids as a healer.
Now having said that, I think there is a possible alternative to having more dps actions to healers.

Lets use WHM as an example,
Cure 1 upgrades to Cure 2. Freecure trait is deleted, and MP adjustment to Cure 2.
Medica 1 upgrades to Medica 2. Healing potency has increased and also has a regan effect.

With more healing actions replaced and more simplified, there is more room to add in more dps actions.
Basically the healing kit will have to be more simplified and the dps kit will have more depth.
This also makes sure there isn't no button bloat issues later on.
I hope this something the development team considers, but this my opinion on a solution for healers to have a more interesting dps kit. Curious what everyone else's opinions are.

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That's essentially what healing used to be. You had a handful of healing tools, a handful of offensive tools, and a few self utility and/or group utility tools. Here's a comparison between SCH during ARR and SCH now:

ARR SCH
Healing Actions
- Physick
- Adloquium
- Succor
- Lustrate
- Resurrection
- Leeches (Esuna)
- Embrace (Faerie)
- Whispering Dawn (Eos Only)
- Rouse (Increases faerie's healing)
- Stoneskin (Barrier)

Offensive Actions
- Ruin
- Ruin II (Same potency as Ruin but instant cast and more MP)
- Bio
- Bio II (separate from Bio)
- Miasma (Single target DoT)
- Miasma II (AoE DoT)
- Energy Drain
- Bane (Spreads DoTs to nearby enemies)
- Shadowflare (Create a zone that enemies are slowed and take damage)
- Aero
- Thunder
- Cleric Stance (toggled stance for going into offensive mode, but lost healing potential)

Other Actions
- Aetherflow
- Sacred Soil (Did not have a regen)
- Virus (Lowered enemy Strength and Dexterity)
- Eye for an Eye (Buff on an ally that had a chance to inflict a damage down to enemies that attacked them)
- Protect (30 minute damage reduction on the party)
- Fey Illumination (Eos only)
- Fey Covenant (Damage reduction on the party; Eos only)
- Silent Dusk (Silence 1 enemy; Selene only)
- Fey Light (Skill speed buff on the party; Selene only)
- Fey Glow (Spell speed buff on the party; Selene only)
- Swiftcast

EW SCH
Healing Actions
- Physick
- Esuna
- Resurrection
- Whispering Dawn
- Adloquium
- Succor
- Lustrate
- Sacred Soil (Regen at level 78)
- Indomitability
- Deployment Tactics
- Emergency Tactics
- Excogitation
- Aetherpact
- Fey Blessing
- Summon Seraph/Consoluation/Seraphic Veil
- Embrace

Offensive Actions
- Broil IV
- Ruin II
- Biolysis
- Art of War
- Energy Drain

Other Actions
- Fey Illumination
- Aetherflow
- Dissipation
- Chain Stratagem
- Recitation
- Protraction
- Swiftcast
- Lucid Dreaming
- Surecast
- Rescue

Look at how heavy-loaded toward healing SCH is now, and keep in mind that the tanks and several DPS have gained sustain tools as well. Level 90 dungeons, midcore content, and hardcore content also tend to deal less damage to the party percentage-wise than they do in ARR content.

Cure I and Benefic I should probably be removed.

All tier 1 skills should be removed imo and add more skills like PvP deployment tactics (merging deplo and bane) or eukasia that allow for the jobs to consolidate more effects in less buttons

The new dps actions would need to be something used frequently and gameplay changing not just "standard 2m cd big hit" cause that only works when jobs already have a rotation

Upgrading/Simplifying the healing kit will also be beneficial for newer players. Where going into content not worrying on what to do when Tanks or dps need healing. Especially when their health drops dramatically.

When a Tank/DPS are doing well to avoid mechanics and mitigating, healers can have a more interesting dps kit, so it feels almost rewarding to use their dps actions.
Especially when healers at higher levels have more dps actions and a dps rotation that has a satisfying build up for a very damaging attack.

These are the sort of changes I would like to see using WHM as an example. In this case the lily gauge would enable both healing and damage abilities.

Hard cast healing:
Cure (trait to Cure II)
Medica (no change)
Raise (no change)
Esuna (no change)

oGCD healing:
Afflatus Rapture (oGDC with charges)
Afflatus Solace (oGCD with charges)
Benediction (no change)
Regen (made AoE)
Asylum (Regen + dmg mitigation)

Buffs:
Protect (replace Aquaviel)
Temperance (dmg/healing bonus & mp regen)
Thin Air (mp regen & x duration no mp cost)
Presence of Mind ( no change)

DPS:
Glare 3 (no change)
Dia (no change)
Holy 3 (no change)
Assize (no mp regen, and shorter CD)


Lilly Gauge:
Blue lilies used to cast either Cure 3 (no MP cost) or Afflatus Misery (single target dps with aoe dot)
Pink lily enables Afflatus Purgation (single target dmg with aoe drop off & applies a potent regen to the party)

Removed:
Medica II
Tetragrammaton
Divine Benison
Plenary Indulgence
Lucid Dreaming

In terms of changes to WHM I would love to see fixes to it to make it a proper mirror to it's BLM counterpart. The biggest problem with being a healer is that with the exception of Sage which is designed FAR better and matches the feel of what a healer should be the older healing jobs we're badly gutted with shadowbringers and the changes still to this day have felt detrimental and unrewarding.
I can only speak reasonably well on WHM as I don't play the other's as much but if there were changes I'd like to see for WHM

Give WHM Water at lvl15 (Potency 100 1.54 cast time) and give it an AoE effect similar to Gravity. Have it Upgrade to Water II at lvl45 (120 potency) and Water III (140 potency) at lvl60 before becoming Glare II (160 Potency) at lvl78. This give CNJ/WHM a castable water spell at lower levels, fits thematically with the job and adds the water element that's been missing from players spells.
Return Aero III. Have it function in the same way as Thunder Does on BLM and have it Upgrade to Dia III at lvl78. It made no sense to remove this and making the dot single target is cumbersome and annoying.
Change Holy from a spammable aoe to a High Damage AoE spell (800 potency) with a 30 second cooldown. This also solves the issue of WHM making mobs stunlock immune. Holy 3 adds an extra 200 Potency.
Remove Freecure and replace it with Tetragrammation at lvl32. Have Cure upgrade directly to Cure II. This frees up a button.
Additionally have Medica just strait upgrade to Medica II at lvl50 and increase it's potency to 400. This removes another Button.
Bring back Stoneskin at lvl24 with 10% Damage Reduction. Have this upgrade to Divine Benison at lvl66 adding in the 500 potency shield and add an extra charge then have this upgrade to Aquaveil with yet another charge. This reduces 3 buttons to one.
Change Lilybell to be a strait upgrade for Asylum and have it's duration match asylums. This free's up another button.
Give WHM Break and make it an AoE with a dot effect that weighs down opponents.
Make Afflatus Misery OCD with a 30 second CD (This makes no major change to it it just means it's not on the GCD anymore).
Additionally Give WHM back Eye for an Eye at lvl26 and change it to reflect 5% of damage received. Upgrade this to Reflect at lvl66 with 10% damage reflected.

This would both streamline WHM a bit but at the same time make it a bit more fun as it would keep a player busier and not be just the same old Glare Mage Routine.

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Originally Posted by Super_Smiley

Just want to let others know I'm a casual healer, haven't healed in Extreme Trials or Raids as a healer.
Now having said that, I think there is a possible alternative to having more dps actions to healers.

Lets use WHM as an example,
Cure 1 upgrades to Cure 2. Freecure trait is deleted, and MP adjustment to Cure 2.
Medica 1 upgrades to Medica 2. Healing potency has increased and also has a regan effect.

With more healing actions replaced and more simplified, there is more room to add in more dps actions.
Basically the healing kit will have to be more simplified and the dps kit will have more depth.
This also makes sure there isn't no button bloat issues later on.
I hope this something the development team considers, but this my opinion on a solution for healers to have a more interesting dps kit. Curious what everyone else's opinions are.

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Alternatively, delete Esuna. Let Cure 1 get Esuna as an additional effect. That can work with all healers. Physick, Benefic 1, and Diagnosis. Now, Cure 1 has a niche purpose and total button bloat has been reduced.

For White Mage in particular, Freecure was used for new healers because it was difficult on their MP in leveling gear from level 30 to 34 without Regen as they only had Cure 1 or Cure 2. As such, I propose for White Mage to get Regen at level 30 instead.

White Mage can also get Divine Benison merged with Aquaveil as one skill. It wouldn't even be an issue to bring in PvP Aquaveil to make the skill creative when cleansing a debuff by increasing the barrier potency.

That's 2 buttons freed up.

White mage can also get Fluid Aura back, but readjusted as a skill that applies [Water-bound] to all enemies nearby. All enemies who are [Water-bound] will receive additional damage when hit, up to [x] attacks. This way, White Mage's play in solo instances will feel much better.

If they don't want to get creative with the skill, they can make Fluid Aura a low-level AOE ability that upgrades into Assize at level 56. That way, the White Mage leveling experience feels better and White Mage can still get more skills for attacking the enemy as total number of buttons haven't changed.

I like the dps simplicity of healers. I always have

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Originally Posted by DormantOne

I like the dps simplicity of healers. I always have

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Always, huh? Then it should be fine to go back to the still simple, yet more engaging general level that it had during ARR. Not exactly the same thing, but something on that level would be fine then.

Can I just have Afflatus Purgation in PVE and Aero 3 back

That's literally all they need to do to make me play WHM again, like. That's it. Give me the meme beam and my old AOE.

I also think Healers might be more popular if the healing kit was more simplified and dps kit had more depth, because low level players would be more interested in the job as they level it up more. Also will help new players feel more at ease when things take a drastic turn in duties.

You could cull half the healing kits just by making the remaining cooldowns shorter and adding more stacking resources, yeah. I just leveled AST to 90 a while ago, and it's... why. Who thought it needed another single target mitigation ability? It's already in the kit, I don't want to make space for this on my bars again. And really the rest of the abilities are exactly like that too. How many healing buff skills do I actually need? Or medium party heals for that matter. You just basically use whatever is off cooldown anyway, and I just don't believe finding the button that's not darkened actually adds any real complexity. The only challenge that comes from that is when you start playing a job and haven't memorized what each ability does yet, which is another reason why healers become boring as competency increases.

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Originally Posted by Super_Smiley

I also think Healers might be more popular if the healing kit was more simplified and dps kit had more depth, because low level players would be more interested in the job as they level it up more. Also will help new players feel more at ease when things take a drastic turn in duties.

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What I think would be best is to have cheap, very powerful baseline healing GCDs that are a DPS loss. This makes them undesirable for optimized play, but feel very safe and reliable to use in a bind or when trying to get more comfortable with healing. Beyond that, having weaker healing tools that have restrictions but offer DPS neutrality and are thus optimal to use correctly in combination with more engaging ways of contributing to DPS. This creates a better environment where players can feel rewarded for pushing their performance while having a stable safety net for those that can't.

Or since they are against making our dps rotation exist then flesh out our secondary defining abilities: give lilies more versatility give tocicon more charges add another ability like toxicon change the fairy so it doesn’t dissipate but multiplied give us selene and eos at the same time make selene debuff again instead of heal add back card effects from pvp to pve he’ll give everyone back tp so we can each do our own ultimates again.

Hopefully the development team sees my suggestions and we might get some news about healers in the next live letter! :D

As you listed cross class skills, how about Blizzard 2? It was useful in dungeons even after you got Miasma 2 as you could use it for aoe instead of constantly reapplying your dot. On WHM it was also useful before you got Holy.

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Originally Posted by Zolvolt

Cure I and Benefic I should probably be removed.

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they stay just in case you have to do lower-tier content randomly.

honestly, the reason I use AST primarily is because of the complexity and tandem of switching between offense and healing as well as its other benefits, I hate that it's been simplified as far as it has been, Stormblood felt like a nice compromise so that skill cap was lowered enough that new players weren't scared of it but it still had enough of its original kit that it still felt rewarding in higher-level content if you knew what you were doing back in Stormblood, where solo healing something like Tsukiyomi Ex felt like a big accomplishment.

I don't see there being anything inherently wrong with more difficult to play jobs if the reward for mastering them is substantial and meant to entice players to up their game. Yes, some people will try it and see it's not for them, and that's fine, I don't think just because a job is created to be hard to play but reward you for mastering it that the job is inherently wrong or bad. On the flip side groups then requiring that more difficult job and only allowing someone who is good at utilizing that job into their groups shouldn't be allowed because I know there are some people who will try to calculate fights down to the digit and swear that the challenging content requires the difficult jobs to be used and thus keep other jobs out. Again, everyone plays for their own reasons, jobs that are created to challenge the player while they challenge the content just seem like a natural progression to me again so long as it's rewarding to git gud with said jobs.

Or I could just be on crazy pills. I dont know.

I just saw the initial post.

I didn't though about it, but now that you point it out... How does this make sense :

Why can we use multiple version of "Cure", but no other version of "Stone" ? This doesn't make any sense at all. Imagine one second, you are an incredible white mage, but you made a "Pokemon" level up, you just throw out a spell for an other (That's literraly what we do each time Stone/Glare upgrade).

The initial idea of upgrading Cure 1 to Cure 2, and Medica 1 to Medica 2 kinda makes sense, but doesn't solve the problem with healing button. In fact, Cure 1 and Medica 1 have little to no use, even at higher level and are barely used under normal circonstences. The only thing this will do is liberate 2 button, but that can be of some sort of use (I don't think your idea is bad, it's really far from that).

How about this :

We add another ressource for WHM based on the element of Glare/Lumen : Light

Allow Light to be build up when you cast Glare/Lumen, some other ability may grant Light too.

Change Assize to be only damage at lvl 56, and make it upgrade after "Light" is unlock to be a gauge Spender, allowing Assize to make 400 pontency + variable potency depending on how much light was taken away, depleting the gauge completely and healing people when you actually spend gauge for it, healing will be depend on that. (Assize look like an overflow of light, imo.)

In the same time, allow to use a "Glare IV", which is a stronger GCD cast, spending gauge in order to not overlap if necessary, adding 1 button to DPS. (Still wonder where did the Glare II go...)

We could add more thing of course, but as i'm not a healer main, my suggestion could be way off. But I hope this will give some people idea (or at least a beginning of that)


I completely overlooked about PvP action...

the WHM pvp's LB and the dash could be used in PVE actually, giving a new identity to the job (and way more fun I guess)

They clearly have room to improve on healer DPS gameplay at least somewhat. They could try to make their offensive kits have at least "some" sort of playstyle, rather than just 1 button dpsing. I don't think anybody is asking for much. It's not like healers need to do double their current DPS, but it would be nice to have a little flavour involved.

Sage clearly has more offensive buttons than other healers, proving that they can do it and it doesn't break the game. In fact, the design idea around Sage was brilliant. The idea was that you get REWARDED for playing your class properly. By applying a barrier to your tank, and letting it break to get an addersting stack. This incentivizes you to continue putting on your barrier as soon as it breaks so you can continue to earn offensive ability stacks.

I have basically quit playing Scholar once Sage came out. Even though scholar has some slightly better single target healing potential (because of Recitation+Emergency Tactics). Sage just feels like a much more cleaner Scholar. Their core healing kit is almost identical. But Sage has less button bloat and has more interesting DPS abilities to go along with it.

I only wish Toxikon had slightly higher potency so you actually got rewarded for using your barriers properly even in single target encounters. As it stands, Toxicon has the same potency as Dosis so in single target situations you don't actually "EARN" anything for getting your addersting stacks. The idea is really good, though.

Maybe a controversial opinion but SGE just feels like a boring version of SCH. Yes, a lot of it is jank, but there's at least some semblance of internal priority in the SCH healing kit. With SGE nothing actually matters, if it's off cooldown good enough.

I don't really get that feeling at all with Sage. As someone who played both a lot now. Their core healing abilities are basically 1:1 identical. The only differences they really have are their utility skills, which both fulfill different roles better or worse than each other.
Kardia = Eos Healing
Eukrasian Diagnosis = Adloquium
Eukrasian Prognosis = Succor
Druochole = Lustrate
Ixochole = Indomitability
And so on, every base skill is literally a copy-paste. The two classes are exactly the same in their core healing.
They only really differ when it comes to their niche skills.
Scholar has more niche skills that benefit burst healing or protecting one target, while sage has a bit more leaning towards AoE focused utility like Panhaima or Holos which can mitigate quite a lot of AoE damage.
The classes actually felt almost the same to me, i basically put most of the skills on the same buttons and i was able to play sage 90% from muscle memory that i learned on scholar.
The only big difference i noticed when going BACK to scholar is that:
Eukrasian Diagnosis/Prognosis (Your Barrier skills) on sage are instant cast, but Scholars Adloquium and Succor are not.
Technically, Sage still has to wait on GCD when activating Eukrasia, so the TIME difference is the same. But whats NOT the same is that Sage can use both of these skills WHILE MOVING because they are instant cast. This makes a gigantic difference in making the job feel less clunky considering that these are your most-used skills when healing.

My biggest problem i have always had with Scholar is that once you get to like level 75~ the button bloat becomes overkill. You have a million buttons, a bunch of them are to order your fairy to do some healing /that is the same as another healing skill you already have/. And so it feels redundant. They probably could do better by culling some of Scholars fairy skills and leaving Eos with just two buttons that have a definitive use.
Even though i like Scholar and it was my first main class, after playing sage, it just feels like a big quality of life upgrade to me. I'm still pushing the same buttons as i do on scholar, except a few things are a bit smoother and i dont have quite as many buttons to deal with.
Scholar has Recitation though, and that alone is enough to keep it top tier.

But there's interaction between SCH skills. You want to try hold on to your aetherstacks and rely on everything else first, you want to use all your other fairy abilities before popping union so you aren't constantly interrupting it. You need to know if you really need to go full heal-bot mode and spend everything else before using dissipation (or if it's safe to pop just to get the extra energy drain). I mean that kind of thing.

What does anything matter in SGE kit? And not just universal stuff like appropriate mitigation/shield/regen/raw healing.

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Originally Posted by Super_Smiley

Just want to let others know I'm a casual healer, haven't healed in Extreme Trials or Raids as a healer.
Now having said that, I think there is a possible alternative to having more dps actions to healers.

Lets use WHM as an example,
Cure 1 upgrades to Cure 2. Freecure trait is deleted, and MP adjustment to Cure 2.
Medica 1 upgrades to Medica 2. Healing potency has increased and also has a regan effect.

With more healing actions replaced and more simplified, there is more room to add in more dps actions.
Basically the healing kit will have to be more simplified and the dps kit will have more depth.
This also makes sure there isn't no button bloat issues later on.
I hope this something the development team considers, but this my opinion on a solution for healers to have a more interesting dps kit. Curious what everyone else's opinions are.

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The core root of the DPS problem is some people just don't want to DPS as a Healer for whatever reason. The best method to add Raid DPS to Healer Role is to give them all a DPS Support functions that increase party member damage.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

The core root of the DPS problem is some people just don't want to DPS as a Healer for whatever reason. The best method to add Raid DPS to Healer Role is to give them all a DPS Support functions that increase party member damage.

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And Solo content requires that you DPS to clear so they need to get off their lazy ass and use their full toolkit and stop complaining about having to DPS on a Healer because the game is designed with Healer DPS in mind. Holy's stun is meaningless if you don't use it damn it.