The LB of monks, dragoons and samurai should be nerfed

Monk is extremly strong and its LB charges faster than nearly any class in pvp, its LB also breaks guard and the class itself deals shit tons of dmg without the LB itself already.

Samurai LB should be changed, its LB charges to slow, but oneshots with debuff, feels very shit atm, maybe change it to something dmging instead of a oneshots if you attack the shield.

Dragoon LB is to stealthy

Monk LB is literally the only thing that keeps it being playable in pvp. And you want to nerf it over a gimmick that other melee (not you reaper) do significantly better without LB? Why?

Rarely get killed by Monk LB, Dragoon punishes people who group, and the Samurai is the only one I might consider problematic, because there have been a few times where I got murdered at full HP, with Guard on as a Tank.

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Originally Posted by Enjuden

Monk LB is literally the only thing that keeps it being playable in pvp. And you want to nerf it over a gimmick that other melee (not you reaper) do significantly better without LB? Why?

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I dont think thats true, monk already does insane amounts of dmg and can jump from friends to foes, its LB dmg can also be increased by applying debuff to enemies.
Besides that its a CC and breaks guard while dealing shit tons of dmg while the debuff is applied.

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Originally Posted by Barachim

Rarely get killed by Monk LB, Dragoon punishes people who group, and the Samurai is the only one I might consider problematic, because there have been a few times where I got murdered at full HP, with Guard on as a Tank.

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Well during overtime you have to group

MNK can do high damage but its weakness is that it has to slowly build up to Phantom Rush between engagements as opposed to being able to dump massive amounts of burst on people from the get-go.

As far as single-target LBs go I'd consider NIN's more problematic because sub 50% HP isn't a difficult threshold to catch people under and it still kills through guard.

DRG LB is fine. It doesn't one shot and you can react to it unlike the other instant LB's. The ability to one shot someone over 50% HP definitely needs to go though and WHM LB needs to be completely redesigned.

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Originally Posted by Cesarion

I dont think thats true, monk already does insane amounts of dmg and can jump from friends to foes, its LB dmg can also be increased by applying debuff to enemies.
Besides that its a CC and breaks guard while dealing shit tons of dmg while the debuff is applied.

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You don't think that's true because you don't know what you're talking about. It has to get six gcds before it has that insane damage, with all of the hits doing 5k at most, or 3k at worst, which is okay, but it needs a while compared to say, Dragoon who averages more with Geirskogul and has a 25% Damage Resistance (50% if for some reason they don't use Geirskogul). Sam has that too and you literally can't touch him for 5 seconds when he has LB or else you're dead. Red Mage you simply lose against no matter what and Reaper is just bad. Its gimmick can only be done after 90 seconds of combat, where it's very obvious when the damage is going to come in. By the way, the only insane damage it has is its limit break, or Rush, which is pretty good, but takes far too long to do when Dragoon does more off of A SINGLE BUTTON AT 15 YALMS AND IS A LINE AOE. Yes I'm caps locking because this is well known and comparing it to literally any line aoe, or even circular aoes makes Rush only okay, or even awful.

It has jumps that do no damage and give it a 6k shield, which gets broken by a single ogcd, and you're going to get focused because you're a melee dps with no damage resistance. Its 'insane' damage needs to be actually used after 8 seconds of combat, and can get CC'd out of (or just lul polymorph because having an uncounterable CC on a 25 second cooldown isn't good enough compared to the fastest LB generation in the game and the best and insane tankiness/healing/damage. Oh oops, White Mage is a better melee). If the monk runs away with a dash, they're dead meat regardless due to not getting the shield and still being chased down rather easily. Breaking guard on one target kills stall, which is good for Crystal Conflict, but it is not remotely gamebreaking. Did I mention you can get CC'd out of the monk limit break and the only thing you get out of it is the guard break/stun? Because that's a thing, and you have 3 whole seconds to react so you can cc it if your hotkeys are set properly.

Just admit you want Monk to be unplayable garbage when there are far, FAR better classes than Monk even not counting bugs. The rest is legitimate complaints, but the last thing Monk needs is a nerf.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

DRG LB is fine. It doesn't one shot and you can react to it unlike the other instant LB's. The ability to one shot someone over 50% HP definitely needs to go though and WHM LB needs to be completely redesigned.

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The only reason why DRG is a easy kill, is because 90% of all DRG Players in CC are usually hiding in sone corner and waiting for the next chance to LB, land a few hits and the moment someone casts a gaze on them, they immediately run away or die by chasing a low HP Target into a 1vs4 Situation.

Every.
Single.
Time.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

DRG LB is fine. It doesn't one shot and you can react to it unlike the other instant LB's. The ability to one shot someone over 50% HP definitely needs to go though and WHM LB needs to be completely redesigned.

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...what?

Dragoon LB is imho even worse than the Samurai one (not by far though).

You get 5 seconds of de facto immunity and then a nuke from orbit that is going to deal up to 37,5k damage if you use Geirskogul beforehand. As to which there is no reason not to because you're just going to ignore the vulnerability while mid air and you can follow up with more chonky AoE afterwards. And this is just reliably self-buffed, This isn't even counting potential buffs from party members!
Compare MCH with the highest single target attack in PvP - the LB for 36k damage. Dragoon can easily self-buff to deal higher AoE damage than another class *specifically* designed to murder someone with the LB can inflict on even just a single target. Let that sink in.

Sam's LB is a lot more conditional on its murderous potential although the ability to potentially oneshot an entire party is a bit much, I am not going to disagree there.

WHM LB is fine. It just charges too damn fast.

I read it and imediately thought of PvE LB and stratching my head.

You definitely should not have lead off with your bizarre Monk take. Usually you should just throw that sort of stuff in at the end and see if it hits with the momentum of your other 2 more popular points (DRG and SAM nerfs).
Because I can think of about a half dozen other LBs that need addressing before MNKs. "oh no MNK removed my shield with LB"... yeah, WAR does that in AOE. And "shit tons of dmg" is not exactly how I would describe the job, especially in comparison to any other melee DPS except (MAYBE!!) Reaper?

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Originally Posted by Subtext

...what?

Dragoon LB is imho even worse than the Samurai one (not by far though).

You get 5 seconds of de facto immunity and then a nuke from orbit that is going to deal up to 37,5k damage if you use Geirskogul beforehand. As to which there is no reason not to because you're just going to ignore the vulnerability while mid air and you can follow up with more chonky AoE afterwards. And this is just reliably self-buffed, This isn't even counting potential buffs from party members!
Compare MCH with the highest single target attack in PvP - the LB for 36k damage. Dragoon can easily self-buff to deal higher AoE damage than another class *specifically* designed to murder someone with the LB can inflict on even just a single target. Let that sink in.

Sam's LB is a lot more conditional on its murderous potential although the ability to potentially oneshot an entire party is a bit much, I am not going to disagree there.

WHM LB is fine. It just charges too damn fast.

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Except it's overrated and anyone who plays Dragoon knows it is
1. It's very obvious to not group up if the dragoon disappears suddenly and doesn't come back, if a person just disappears all of a sudden and the enemy team has a dragoon you just simply move away from the spot they disappeared from and they can't move their reticle fast enough to catch you
2. It's entirely possible to get stunned/killed after the jump, I can't tell you how many times I've gotten stunned, rooted, charmed, and feared 2 or 3 seconds after popping it
3. Sage LB completely shuts it down, you'll do 0 damage to people in the circle, same with Machinist LB, it'll kill you mid jump
4. Guard lasts 5 seconds, the LB auto-uses itself after 5 seconds

The ONLY time the LB really works on people is if they're just not paying attention and just button mashing, if you have a semblance of awareness you'll see it coming and react accordingly, it's not some small debuff like Samurai has and considering that human eyes are meant to track motion, something suddenly disappearing is very obvious

That being said, I wouldn't be opposed to them giving each individual LB a sound cue when the enemy team uses it because it's really dumb how the enemy team uses an LB but there's nothing to indicate it's being cast, you just get hit with whatever they were aiming at you with no indicator other than after the fact

Monk LB doesn't even work correctly. Atleast buff it to where it does what its supposed to do before you talk about nerfs

Dragoon's LB is the easiest one to spot and avoid. I mean... Plus Dragoon's not in the same league as WAR/WHM/RDM/SAM/NIN.

It's strong, it's viable, but it's not overwhelming.

People who see the damage output at the end of the match and believe Dragoon is in the OP league forget two things:

1) Dragoon lacks the strongest tool in this game, the one thing everyone complains about: crowd control. I can't think of any other melee that doesn't have at least one form of cc. That means it is much more difficult for a Dragoon to focus down and kill another player than it is for SAM/NIN/MNK/RDM/RPR. You have no tools to prevent them from healing, using guard, and running around. When I am playing scholar, with full health and mana, and a Dragoon jumps me, I think "okay buddy, keep hitting me forever while I heal myself and cast AOE dots on your buddies. When a RDM or a NIN jump me, I'm like "fuck fuck fuck". The lack of cc means Dragoons' damage does not translate into KO's as well as that of other melee DPS'. It also minds you can't find kills for your team by ccing an opponent at the right time.

2) A good chunk of Dragoons' damage is AOE. Since it is AOE, it is not focused, it's dispersed. And what's the problem with that? Well, 100k of focused, single-target damage is simply better than 100k of AOE damage since it is more likely to lead to KOs. Suppose there are four enemy players, and you attack them with, say, a Ninja, and you deal 140k damage distributed among them in the following manner: 85k/30k/15k/10k. Now you attack them with a Dragoon instead, and deal the same 140k damage with the following profile: 55k/30k/30k/25k. The first profile has a considerably larger chance of killing an opponent, as it dealt 85k to one of them over the course of the skirmish. So when you see the damage table at the end of the match and a Dragoon has 850k damage while a Ninja has 700k damage, it is very likely the Ninja's damage helped the team get more kills than the Dragoon's.

So, because Dragoon does not have any type of cc and a good chunk of its damage is AOE, it is less useful for the team than the Stats at the end of the match would suggest.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

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That being said, I wouldn't be opposed to them giving each individual LB a sound cue when the enemy team uses it because it's really dumb how the enemy team uses an LB but there's nothing to indicate it's being cast, you just get hit with whatever they were aiming at you with no indicator other than after the fact

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As a Dragoon main I agree with everything you said in your comment. But this part about the wound cue... I'm not sure. It seems to me that adding a sound cue to LBs will affect Dragoon a lot since it's a delayed cast while doing next to nothing to other LBs.

The take on monk LB is so strange. Like, of all the mechanics that bypass or break guard, it feels like the most fair and not needing of any adjustment. Monk in general feels in a good spot where it just needs a few tweaks and improvements and otherwise I wouldn't change anything about it.

It's a good LB. It should continue to charge fast and be THE thing that monk brings to the table.

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Originally Posted by gioroggia

As a Dragoon main I agree with everything you said in your comment. But this part about the wound cue... I'm not sure. It seems to me that adding a sound cue to LBs will affect Dragoon a lot since it's a delayed cast while doing next to nothing to other LBs.

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Well it would apply to other LBs like Samurai or Machinist or Warrior, and I would rather them just increase the LB cast time across the board to add to it as well (Dragoon is fine since the jump gives time to react and move away due to the minimum delay, just needs a sound cue)

The only LB's with burst damage that give any warning are Machinist's snipe and Dragoon's jump, and because of bad netcode you could react with guard but it would still hit for full damage anyways because of the delay on the snipe

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Originally Posted by ffisdead

Monk LB doesn't even work correctly. Atleast buff it to where it does what its supposed to do before you talk about nerfs

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You mean the tooltip that says it should deal an extra 12k to unguarded opponents? Yea I've noticed that as well.

I just want them to add a very loud dragon roar across the whole map when a dragoon uses the LB. It's way too stealthy and even if 2 people battle you barely notice the indicator where the dragoon will land.
Let alone notice he jumped at all sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Cesarion

Monk is extremly strong and its LB charges faster than nearly any class in pvp, its LB also breaks guard and the class itself deals shit tons of dmg without the LB itself already.

Samurai LB should be changed, its LB charges to slow, but oneshots with debuff, feels very shit atm, maybe change it to something dmging instead of a oneshots if you attack the shield.

Dragoon LB is to stealthy

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Well thats what LBs are, game changing abilities to turn the tide.

But since you mention these three classes, I just to understand your perspective. Which of the current set of LBs we have now you think is fair ?

I dont really care if they are fair, since I think its good to have some cool abilities that either does much dmg or assits in some other way.
What I care about is that LB's have some sort of counterplay without the counterplay being to obvious or too hard to execute.

For example: I have no problem with samurai LB oneshotting people, since the counterplay here is "look out for his shield", however the shield debuff should not be triggered through aoe attacks or dots and in return they could make it charge up faster, since its the slowest atm. or they could change the ability to something else, which I also would be fine with since most of the time it doesnt trigger properly because of the netcode.

And I know the monk mains say: noooo our LB isnt that strong its pretty shit!!! But thats their bias in my opinion, since I also main monk/samurai/drg/machinist/bard in PVP and I also mained them back then in feast PVP

man so you have 5 mains? cool, but your feast experience has no bearing here. MNK LB is actually bugged in that it doesn't do the extra damage to unguarded opponents. it is without a doubt one of the weakest damage LBs and only balanced by its high charge time and tactical guard removal

Monk LB only does 12k if you are guarding and removes guard. If they aren't guarding, then it does (or should do) only 24k to one target, with an additional 8k if they use Enlightenment prior as a gcd, which is more investment than most LBs that do heavy damage, especially to a single target or a group.

Not to mention in comparison to both DRG and SAM, MNK lacks any hyper-specialisation in it's kit, thus it's the jack of all trades, master of none.

Why in all that is holy did you group MNK alongside SAM and DRG in terms of being 'OP' due to it's LB? Using Meteodrive on a non-pressured point'd, guarding target is generally a waste and can be healed off with one charge of self-heal, thus it's highly lacklustre, if anything you should have put warriors instead of monks in your thread's title.