Preferences on Adjustments?

I'm sure we all have our own personal lists of what changes we'd like to see in PvP, with some overlapping issues and some that don't, but I'm curious what the general opinion is on how often or when adjustments should be made.

How often would you like to see issues in PvP get addressed?
Should there be time given to allow a meta (and meta counters) to establish or should changes be made as soon as something start's becoming an issue?
Are you okay with changes being made mid competitive Season or should all changes be done at Season end (or even Series end)?

I think most people probably agree that actual bugs and glitches, especially if they hurt competitive balance, should be addressed as soon as possible, but I'm thinking more about things that are balance related.

.There are two main pieces for me. Balance philosophy, and schedule.

With Feast, they applied what is generally solid balance philosophy of boosting up weaker jobs, and avoiding nerfing stronger ones when necessary, like they do with PvE. The unfortunate result is IMO because some of the outliers were left unchanged, I feel like HP pools kept getting increased. But like, to a mercy, I think PvP has been more aggressive about nerfing things, which of course feels awful if you enjoyed that job, but it stops things from becoming a balance arms race. A middle-of-the-road job should be a basis for how others are compared. I mentioned MNK in another thread as a good example, which I feel just needs a few improvements, but I definitely think there are some jobs that need to be toned down much more, and some that should be brought up to a greater extent.

Data should be gathered from crystal rank primarily, since it is more likely people will have informed ideas of how to play, particularly after we have had more time with CC. Like with Feast, CC should be prioritized, but the developer can adjust things for RW or FL without compromising the product. For example, LBs having falloff after they hit 5 targets, or % damage reduction in those environments where appropriate. LB charge rates based on mode is another thing. As an example, some of us feel WHM has too many LBs in CC, but even the staunchest doubters can't deny it's coming back way too fast in FL. Playing WHM has been hilarious as a result, but yeah that has to change. Even if I had half as many LBs as I do now I would still be living it up.

In terms of timing... I really think big, obvious outliers should be addressed as soon as possible, even mid season. If we are a month in and something has >60%WR, it should be addressed in the next patch, even a .x1/5/8/etc. patch. That said, it is generally safer to make small improvements to weaker jobs mid-season, than it is to gut a stronger job. Sometimes the latter is required, but more gentle nerfs are encouraged.

It should be a priority system just like any patch cycle.

Cure 2 glitching for example should be an immediate hotfix. They can hop on housing immediately a broken lb generating thing that hurts a game mode should also be a priority. Things like the audio bug, the fact that my sage weapons keep popping up on other classes after pvp matches, etc. Bugs/broken mechanics.

Class balance will take time, but there are some kits that they need to really look into changing/updating/buffing to be up to par with the current "meta." There's no "perfect way" to handle these things as you have to give the community time to get beyond the knee jerk "OP/BUSTED" reply and test counters/other classes/etc. I think we've had enough with how hard everyone's been hitting this pvp mode to know that without premades that balance needs to be adjusted quickly for the health of the mode.

THAT BEING SAID they completely redid pvp so I can't be too angry at them needing some balancing after the fact (despite there being some huge disparities). But this first pass I feel should be quicker than subsequent passes to keep people from rigidly sticking to specific classes and to keep people invested in the mode.

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Originally Posted by Tobias_Azuryon

THAT BEING SAID they completely redid pvp so I can't be too angry at them needing some balancing after the fact (despite there being some huge disparities). But this first pass I feel should be quicker than subsequent passes to keep people from rigidly sticking to specific classes and to keep people invested in the mode.

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Yeah, I was thinking that as well. I've been around fighting games for a long time and that's always the issue. There's always things that emerge, sometimes very quickly, that escape testing simply because thousands of players throwing themselves at The New Thing for thousands of hours are always going to find more stuff than a dedicated testing team can find in their allocated test time (where they're often not even testing the whole time with the finished product). But there's also always the knee jerk reactions just because some jobs, or characters in a fighting game, seem too powerful or not powerful enough when the players don't even necessarily understand the game yet. So I agree that the biggest issues should definitely be normalized quickly but I feel the general balance should be given some time to percolate before the hammer comes out.

It's a tough balance especially considering this mode isn't just attracting the experienced PvPers but also those who have literally never PvPed before at all. I think the mode itself and the ideas involved are really good ones so I would prefer balancing up where possible to preserve as much of that as possible.

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Originally Posted by Esmoire

Like with Feast, CC should be prioritized, but the developer can adjust things for RW or FL without compromising the product.

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Excellent points all around. I'll admit that I actually completely didn't even think about RW and FL. That's a complicating factor for sure given that the modes really do play out very differently. I'd say that preference in balancing at least for now should be given to CC. I don't want RW or FL to be broken and unplayable for those who do play them but I would rather see CC get the focus so that it gets in an even better place. Of course, I say that as someone who only plays FL as a lark and doesn't do RW at all so I am admittedly very biased.

I just think they need to tigthen the response time for Guard and the application of Purify as soon as they can. It feels awful to still be Stunned with a 29s CD on your Purify when you just used it to get out of a stun. Or to get half your health or even most of it eaten by the time Guard bothers to activate.

That and give Standard Elixir an actual animation, even if you just lift the animation for Mega Potion from the Monster Hunter crossover.

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Originally Posted by ReiganCross

Or to get half your health or even most of it eaten by the time Guard bothers to activate.

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Sometimes I'll sit there slamming the button just to have nothing happen until I'm nearly dead and then I just die through the shield anyways lol. It's nonsense.

First things first, until they can get a hotfix out for RDM and WHM, both should be disabled in PVP. Both of them have insane bugs that make them far and away above the other jobs.

For those unaware, RDMs Black Shift melee combo has bugged DoT damage, it's supposed to stack up but each DoT creates a new unique DoT, so instead of ramping, you get 4 sets of full damage DoTs on a single target, this allows them to 100-0 through guard

I'd also go as far as anyone abusing these bugs in ranked should be de-ranked an entire division at the end of the season, sorry kids, Exploiters should never prosper.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

First things first, until they can get a hotfix out for RDM and WHM, both should be disabled in PVP. Both of them have insane bugs that make them far and away above the other jobs.

For those unaware, RDMs Black Shift melee combo has bugged DoT damage, it's supposed to stack up but each DoT creates a new unique DoT, so instead of ramping, you get 4 sets of full damage DoTs on a single target, this allows them to 100-0 through guard

I'd also go as far as anyone abusing these bugs in ranked should be de-ranked an entire division at the end of the season, sorry kids, Exploiters should never prosper.

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It's not an exploit on RDM, that is working as intended... The Idea is "Don't get hit by the RDM melee combo." since they can't lock you into it.

But yeah, this is their intended damage... And it doesn't even do half of your HP even if all the DoTs tick, it's just that they also have VerFlare right after it, and maybe even the LB.

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Originally Posted by ReiganCross

It's not an exploit on RDM, that is working as intended... The Idea is "Don't get hit by the RDM melee combo." since they can't lock you into it.

But yeah, this is their intended damage... And it doesn't even do half of your HP even if all the DoTs tick, it's just that they also have VerFlare right after it, and maybe even the LB.

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It's bugged, their damage isn't supposed to create 4 separate DoTs, it's supposed to refresh the time and damage of the first one (i.e stacking DoT) so yes, definitely an abused bug

Edit: Note how their shield works in white shift, it doesn't create 4 separate shields, it simply increases the first shield, the DoT is supposed to work the exact same but doesn't.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

It's bugged, their damage isn't supposed to create 4 separate DoTs, it's supposed to refresh the time and damage of the first one (i.e stacking DoT) so yes, definitely an abused bug

Edit: Note how their shield works in white shift, it doesn't create 4 separate shields, it simply increases the first shield, the DoT is supposed to work the exact same but doesn't.

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It's 3 unique DoTs and yes, they are all supposed to stack. They are all different icons with different names. And the White Shift version is *also* 3 different barriers that stack their total value when they're all out.

The DoT damages through Guard because DoTs calculate their damage based on mitigation when applied, you have to actually Guard the combo itself rather than the DoTs.

white mage glitch is obvious

several melee classes have far too much sustain and anti-cc built in for the very high damage output they do

red mage is just overtuned in general for how safe and easy it is

and the lowest tier jobs like paladin/dark knight/gunbreaker/bard/black mage/etc probably need something added... not necessarily more damage but something to stand out. Like how warrior is kind of crap damage like all the tanks but the CC enables team mates to wreck which is probably actually a good interaction. Just makes them seem OP since tanks get a reserved spot and compared to the competition it's a lot

I also feel like raising should be on a res wave type of deal. The way it is now with the countdown followed by a long black screen followed by a long raising up animation is a LOT for how fast paced it it. If you have a red mage on your team and get a chance watch how long their light/dark aura is just sitting there after the countdown ends before they actually show up. It's kind of nuts

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Originally Posted by Atmaweapon510

Snip.

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Okay, I just switched to RDM and into black shift, looked at the melee combo, looked at the job effect sheet.

Can you point to me where it says "adds a unique Damage over time for each attack"?

Here's the tooltips:


Enhanced Riposte: Deals unaspected Damage with a potency of 6000
Black Shift effect: Damage over time duration 6s potency 4000
Enhanced Zwerchau: Deals unaspected Damage with a potency of 7000
Black Shift effect: Damage over time durations 6s potency 4000
Enhanced Redoublement: Deals unaspected Damage with a potency of 8000
Black Shift effect: Damage over time duration 6s potency 4000

You see the DoT element is exactly the same for each, this would speak to the DoT as a refreshed element (as it is for other jobs) as opposed to a separate element

As it exists, you get 12,000 potency from 3 DoTs all ticking at the same time while also doing 21,000 potency from the combo itself WITHOUT VerFlare

that's 33,000 potency add verflare it's 45,000 potency.

add in Corps a Corps, you're doing 60,000 potency (Corps a corps' potency + the 20% damage increase to everything else) with a single combo without ever having to do any hard set up, you just click a target, corps a corps in and press one button repeatedly.

Now let's put this in context against a melee DPS, I play NIN so what can NIN do with a combo:

Open with Assassinate: 12,000 potency
Mug: Increases damage by 10% 2000 potency attack
Bunshin into Three Mudra to set up your shadow attack clones and your biggest burst hit
Hyosho Ranryu: 16,000 potency + 8000 from Bunshin : 24,000 attack
Fuma Shuriken: 6000 potency + 4000 from Bunshin (it's halved on Fuma Shuriken)
Forked Raiju to stop them getting away: 4000+8000 from Bunshin
Fuma Shuriken: 6000 potency + 4000 from Bunshin
Fleeting Raiju: 4000+8000 from Bunshin

End of combo.

So let's say you have someone stay completely still for that long time, doesn't guard and let's you do the full combo: 88,800 potency (providing the target never moves, never uses guard and you land everything perfect under mug, which is not going to happen)

Now what's the difference here.

That's a full combo using all your Mudras and cooldowns, if someone sits and doesn't guard through any of that, they absolutely deserve to die, if someone lets you stay on someone for the full combo, they deserve to die, it will take you 8 GCDs to go through the entire combo.

the RDM melee combo is 4 GCDs, do you not think that's a problem? you're 20k less potency than a NIN using every single cooldown and not using any defensives

And you get to ignore Guard as well for the DoTs.

The DoT is bugged, the melee combo is intended to be a Finisher, not 100-0 for just pressing two buttons, I dunno how anyone can think that's fine.

I think fixing the bugs and taking care of the cheaters/hackers should be the first thing.

RDM is overpowered, but you have to be accurate about what's over-tuned rather than giving inaccurate info like "Black Shift is bugged." Say all you want about tooltips, but if tooltips were unfailingly accurate, everybody would be out for PLD's blood given that they'd have 7 second stun chain. The fact of the matter is that they programmed 3 unique DoT IDs and icons for each step of RDM's combo and doing otherwise would be incredibly destructive and unintuitive for RDM's actual gamefeel, regardless of how little or high that damage is.

Again, DoT damage is based on the mitigation of the target when they are applied. This is a battle mechanic that holds through throughout the entirety of the game from PvE to PvP. You guard the actual combo from the RDM to block the DoT damage.

I want communication from FF14 PvP dev team. I want to see clear bugs being hot fixed. It's not even a balanced issue at this point. It's literal neglect.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

It's bugged, their damage isn't supposed to create 4 separate DoTs, it's supposed to refresh the time and damage of the first one (i.e stacking DoT) so yes, definitely an abused bug

Edit: Note how their shield works in white shift, it doesn't create 4 separate shields, it simply increases the first shield, the DoT is supposed to work the exact same but doesn't.

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Yes, note how it works in White Shift... It create stacking shields, you get up to 3 barriers.

It's supposed to be that strong. RDM is strong.

I think the only thing about RDM that feels kind of silly to me presently is how good White Shift Resolution is because silence is almost as good as stun, and unlike with WAR's Primal Rend you can't simply spread out to avoid multiple people getting hit by it, particularly because the layout of the arenas is conducive to lining people up.