One of the most annoying aspects of the Samurai change discourse has been "kenki management doesn't exist". Well, as someone who played Samurai at least since the end of Stormblood, once upon a time it did.
Stormblood-era Samurai had multiple tools that requires Kenki management. Hagakure used to be every 40-45 seconds (can't remember specifically... it's been so long) and you had to be able to convert a full 3 sens to 60 kenki, meaning you needed to make space for that kenki before conversion, and that 60 kenki for shinten spam was worth more than a kaiten Midare. Gurren, our 2 minute ogcd, used to cost 50 kenki and we had to have the resources available to spend that since we didn't have Ikitoshen to give us the kenki. We had to keep 20 kenki on hand for iaijutsus. Only after all that, and we didn't need to use a Seigan, did we dump kenki on Shinten. Also keep in mind that during this era keeping up our personal buffs was less lenient. Shorter timers, and using Meikyo didn't give you the buffs from getting the sense. There were lots of little mistakes that could have been made here, but Kenki management in this era was at its most complex, probably the most complex tertiary resource a job has ever had in this game (except maybe heavensward/stormblood Astro cards, I'd love to have those back too).
Shadowbringers-era saw the loss of Hagakure's role as a shinten battery, and we got Tsubame-gaeshi, the rather contentious skill that turned Samurai from a very free flowing class into the 1 minute rotation job. Kenki management is admittedly easier now. Ikitoshen gives us a free 50 kenki every minute. Every minute we make space for it for either 2 free shintens, or to use our new Senei 50-spender (because they couldn't just buff Gurren?). After the haphazard initial implementation of Shoha, Samurai eventually gets its groove going in Shadowbringers. Make sure you have space for ikitoshen, keep 20 kenki for Kaiten, keep Senei in sync with Ikitoshen so it can provide the Kenki to spend it. Also our self-buffs got more lenient.
Initial-Endwalker-era Samurai was made even easier. Ikitoshen is now every 2 minutes, so that's less thinking about room for Kenki. Senei and Gurren now only spend 25 kenki, so now when we get that 50 kenki from Ikitoshen we have enough to use Senei and Kaiten the Namikiri. I... was very iffy on these changes. Didn't understand why this was the direction to go. We lost Seigan, but I guess getting free Kenkiis cool. Okay, interesting change. The buff timers have gotten longer AND Meikyo lets you reapply the buffs when you get the Moon and Flower sens. That's a lot easier, would have settled for an Anatman like effect on our meditate ability. Kenki management is now easier than ever...
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04-21-2022, 02:40 AMSiriusBreezeA kenki retrospect: Another cry to please revert Samurai 6.1 changes
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04-21-2022, 02:40 AMSiriusBreeze
And then 6.1 happened, and the last bit of thought that went into Kenki management has disappeared. Because Ikitoshen gives us enough Kenki for Senei anyway, we don't have to track Kenki. We don't really have to track much really. The self-buffs are so easy to maintain now you have to try to get rid of them. We still have our dot, thats good. We have Tsubame-gaeishi... I'm not that big a fan of Tsubame-gaeshi. Wirth 6.1, we lost Kenki, we lost our mechanic, we lost so much of what we loved about Samurai, and I have this glamour chest full of katanas I don't know what to do with...
And I never asked for that. I never wanted that. I have never seen a Samurai complain about Kenki or Kaiten. I have seen much criticism for Tsubame-Gaeshi, why wasn't that touched up in some way!? Samurai was being touted out the gate as this high-skill ceiling class for try-hards, the perfect compliment for the other expansion job Red Mage which has garnered a reputation for being easy-mode. That's great! Awesome! We should have jobs for every flavor of difficulty! Need an easy job? Red Mage and White Mage will see you through! Want to spice things up a little? Dip your toes into the Monk with its unique combo structure or the Ninja and memorize your mudras! Are you a try-hard optimizations addict? Samurai was your friend... for a time...
I hate seeing the "kenki-management doesn't exist" argument, because once upon a time it did, and it mattered. Over time, slowly, that was stripped away from Samurai. The sentiment has been nearly unanimous: no, please no, revert it now, please. Multiple people all over the world have made their first posts on the forums about how much they dislike the job's changes. And in the process so many amazing suggestions have been made to fix up problems that we Samurai players do perceive.
Consolidate Shinten/Kyuten with Senei/Gurren! Ikitoshen can transform the abilities. Combine a bunch of buttons that all basically fill the same role. Considering that they all cost the same amount of Kenki, what's the issue?
Consolidate Shinten/Kyuten with the Shoha abilities. My favorite idea ever! Shinten upgrades to Shoha when we have enough sword meditation stacks. Give us a new mechanic in trying to minimize the number of Shintens we do and maximize out Shohas. It would combine a bunch of buttons that currently take no brain-power to use into something that takes at least a little skill.
Please, take these ideas, run with them, do something with them. These are the problems we Samurais see, not Kaiten, not Kenki. -
04-21-2022, 02:41 AMSiriusBreeze
Writing this, I pine for Stormblood era Samurai. Stormblood Samurai had the most dynamic gauge (not cards! gauge) to optimize. I would have loved to see the Samurai that brought that forward... and without Tsubame-Gaeshi.
I make this post knowing full well that the dev team probably have their hands full. The housing situation is in disarray, the new crystal conflict has been a resounding success (and the people who made it deserve such an applause! This is amazing, thank you!) and balance changes are probably being worked on (or the White Mage supremacy will take over), 6.2 is probably already being worked on, other jobs are being looked at (pray for your job), and I wouldn't be surprised if there is someone trying to figure out what to do with Samurai in the meantime. I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't happening either...
I've felt a little adrift in the game, trying to find another job to click with. Was hoping I could join the edgelord gang as a Reaper, but I still find myself longing for my katana. Maybe tanking as a Gunbreaker will give me that new rush. Maybe I'll heal as a Sage and join the healer forum in protesting for a more involved dps toolkit. Maybe I need the fast GCDs as a Monk. I'm still searching for something that feels missing after I lost Samurai. But until we know the future of Samurai, I will post in protest! -
04-21-2022, 06:07 AMCelestiCer
I've added your thread to the " Compiled SAM threads against 6.1 changes / Kaiten removal ".
A very accurate description and your last line hit as well. The word " adrift " is befitting, trying to find something else that fills that void that was Samurai enjoyment... and it is just not the same no matter what else I try. Indeed no one asked for the changes, and Kenki management as easy as people make it out to be? It was fun, satisfying, rewarding, gave Flare, Flavor, and at least more depth compared the heck they turned it into in the current 6.1. I agree with your post, gave it a like. Lets hope our voices get heard. -
04-21-2022, 06:46 AMShurrikhanI actually feel like a single-charge Tsubame-Gaeshi was great. It gave us a whole lot more reason to manage our rhythm.Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusBreeze
For my part, I'd just like to see us revert the 6.1 changes and then, and instead...
Offer Slight QoL:- Make it impossible to double-press Kaiten (for those players with high packet-loss who can end up thereby double-queuing it),
- Build the AoE component of Shoha 2 into Shoha, in the style of Guren's wide linear AoE. I.e., Shoha just gets additional AoE damage. Shoha 2 trimmed.
- Make it so when Senei is not attached to your bar, it instead acts as conditional skill, per a trait to Guren. "When no further enemies are detected in the line of attack of Hissatsu: Guren, you will instead use Senei, an single-target skill of higher potency." Senei (as a separate button) can therefore be trimmed, through even then you can influence which is cast even in multi-target through your positioning.
- Make Fuko an option over Fuga, not a requirement. Have the Fuga Mastery trait buff Fuga to do all that Fuko does. Also, move this to earlier in the leveling progression to make that (sacrifice range for not needing a target) option accessible earlier.
Bring back more minute-to-minute events, instead of giving us 100-second lulls between 20-second bursts:- Return Ikishoten to a one-minute cooldown. Return Senei and Guren to 50-Kenki spenders.
- Trim the second charge off Tsubame Gaeshi. Replace the trait with Art of War, which causes Yaten and Gyoten to share 3 charges, each recharging over 5 seconds, and causes Iaijutsu to grant Enhanced Enpi. Additionally, adjust Tsubame-Gaeshi itself to be just a bit more forgiving than the Shadowbringers version:
Final Flavor Notes:- Button-consolidate TG and Iaijutsu whenever you've not added TG to your hotbars. Have the cooldown of Tsubame-Gaeshi appear, radially, over Iaijutsu. Within 5 seconds of using Iaijutsu, you can use Tsubame-Gaeshi regardless of intervening GCDs, unless you have/generate new Sen (at which point Iaijutsu replaces it again).
- If you do add TG to your hotbars, they do not hotswap over each other. You can still use TG for 5 seconds after using an Iaijutsu, and, as they are separate buttons, gaining Sen cannot block you from using it.
- To compensate for every other TG now falling outside of raid buffs, buff Shoha slightly.
- Now that Meditation stacks are worth that bit more, we can safely buff Hagakure from 10 to 15 Kenki per Sen while still having it be a notable loss (though no longer so significant as to have zero value even in non-optimal situations).
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04-21-2022, 07:21 AMSiriusBreezeI may have gotten overzealous with Tsubame-gaeshi. The second charge we got did help a lot. Also, great ideas! I also want Ikitoshen back to 1 minute and Senei/Gurren back to 50 kenki, and fuga! Conditional skills are interesting and can help with button mapping (I just made an aoe button map I switch to in dungeons).Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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04-21-2022, 07:28 AMSiriusBreezeThank you, and here's to hoping.Quote:
Originally Posted by CelestiCer
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04-21-2022, 08:25 AMRArchetI agree with most of the criticisms except that...Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusBreeze
I hated Hagekure Samurai. Shinten spam wasn't fun for me, it's why SAM didn't catch on with me until ShB. A playstyle that is, unfortunately, returned in 6.1.
Tsubame-Gaeshi is awesome imo. Even its name is cool since it was a sword technique by Sasaki Kojiro. Ironically, Shinten would be closest to its actual movement, given it was an overhead stroke performed at a breakneck speed. Too bad I loathe Shinten's role and sound design.
On top of that, I love Senei's animation. I don't mind that we have an alternate choice for Guren- just like I don't mind Kyuten. It lets me set up two hotbars, one for AOE, one for ST and comfortably just swap buttons around. -
04-21-2022, 09:35 AMShurrikhanThat's the thing, though. The second charge turned it from a rotation centerpiece to just another 2-minute burst tool to be crammed in.Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusBreeze
I feel like it was therefore actually a detriment to our rotation and gameplay. Simply reducing its drift penalty for failure seems far preferable, tremendously reducing annoyance without shelving its effect on macrorotation. -
04-21-2022, 11:57 AMXenon_SShinten spam isn't all that fun, but the old hagakure as a concept was top notch.Quote:
Originally Posted by RArchet
It allowed for flexibility, where you were not forced to commit to an iai cast at an inopportune time and can mold your rotation to the fight as it goes.
It enables multiple playstyles, where an SKS build is equally viable as most of samurai's damage resources come from GCD, and more GCD means more resources.
It solved the problem of crit variance fluctuation by moving away from big midare hits to multiple smaller shinten hits that adds up, smoothing out the damage curve.
It asked for competant kenki management to not overcap when converting 3 sens into 60 kenki, also when to use it to build the kenki for the big spenders.
And it still retains the occassional big midare hits for the dopamine rush. -
04-21-2022, 03:57 PMSleeeeeeepySleeeeeeepAnd here's the second issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusBreeze
Let's say you click with another job because it has a flavor / game loop you like.
Then comes next patch. POOF. It's gone. Because this is not the first time now. What next? Piss more time down the drain?
Either SE start changing their asinine direction with the jobs, or it's just time to throw in the towel. -
04-21-2022, 10:40 PMShurrikhanHagakure, much like Shadowbringers' Tsubame-Gaeshi, was meant to be used on CD, at 3 Sen each time. It was only 2 GCDs, at most, more flexible than Tsubame-Gaeshi was then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenon_S
Its presence did not create new playstyles; it merely reduced the number of viable SkS tiers. And while increasing SkS meant more resource per minute, it ultimately meant less resource per GCD (again, because of Hagakure).
Crit variance fluctuation was not increased or decreased by shuffling crit chance from one source to another. You ultimately still faced the same problems of X% of your damage critting or not.
Nothing has ever increased or diminished the "big Midare" hit dopamine rush until 6.1 (now that they, in effect, can't actually crit).
The only real difference was that you got your Kenki spikes (and a slightly larger one, at 60 Kenki) more frequently (per 40s) than was the case with Shadowbringers Ikishoten (50 Kenki per 60 seconds).
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Honestly, I prefer Ikishoten providing those resource spikes so that Sen-cleansing need not be locked behind a long CD.
Bring back the one-minute Ikishoten. Bring back 50-Kenki Senei and Guren. Slightly modify Tsubame-Gaeshi to be less of a pain (at least as flexible as StB Hagakure) and return it to a single charge that, like Hagakure before it, centers our macrorotational play instead of merely ending up a 2-min burst tool. Raise Hagakure, at level 80, to 15 Kenki per Sen so that it doesn't become even more punishing to use (since level 80 adds a 193-potency penalty to using it via wasted Meditation stacks). -
04-22-2022, 08:47 AMCelestiCer
I just do not agree with their take, that we should endure an unfinished Job in it's state and say " well Future changes are coming " of which is TBA, no date.
That's lazy, insulting and quite utterly inexcusable. Unless someone is going to convince me Square is a small 5 man indie company... 6.1 negatively impacted the gameplay experience of Samurai for many, period. The content of 6.1 itself excuse me for saying it, became irrelevant for many yes.
Imagine taking a road trip with your Hummer and the tour guide just decided to make the front tires flat... enjoy my trip? what you mean! you ruined it!!
Personally? I do not mind...
Ikoshten activating Ogi Namikiri on the same button no...
Senei combining in some way with Guren I don't...
Iaijutsu activating Tsubame-gaeshi on the same button sure...
Shoha in same way fused with Shoha II okey dokey...
It simplifies it? but w/e endless amounts of suggested solutions brought forth from other players? probably infinitely better then whatever the devs were intoxicated with that lead them to make these decisions, Removal of Kaiten included... what the Monkey turd on a Stick...
Here's a hot take... how about " NOT " have changed us " AT ALL" until the change for Samurai was finished / tested / polished / not sacrificing any of our identity and or playstyle of what Samurai mains love... " THEN " you implement it.
Then again BLM didn't get changed, not to throw the love child under the bus... why did we needed a change so direly? anyone..?. can anyone explain the mountainous troubles that Samurai brought to any community prior to the 6.1 update? Was the inconsistent fluctuating Crits so unbearable,... did it hurt some poor little fingers to actually press some buttons... Are we really going to convince players Samurai was THAT difficult? I am struggling to reason why what is the freaking " why " I have no clue... I just have no freaking idea. -
04-22-2022, 09:20 AMcjbeagleExactly this - 6.1 looks like a bombshell of great content, but with my ex-main job being gutted, it's like they took us out to a 5-star restaurant but then forced us to eat the meal with dirty, rusted silverware.Quote:
Originally Posted by CelestiCer
I haven't touched samurai since poking at a dummy for a while after the patch first dropped (literally poking - thanks Shinten) - samurai is my ex-main because I don't play it anymore, but I also don't have a replacement - it isn't like I switched mains, I just lost the main I used to have.