Problems with PvP abilities for tanks and heals

To get right to the point, I think that while the new PvP abilities for many DPS classes are simple, fun, and embody the fantasy of the job they were designed for, the new PvP abilities for tanks and healers, especially healers, do not match the aesthetic and fantasy of their respective jobs.

Tanks do have PvE rotations for abilities but the fun in playing a tank comes from having a large set of abilities that allow a player to react to certain situations and control the battle field. While the old PvP ability set for tanks was fairly small compared to PvE, there were plenty of abilities that allowed tanks to react to different situations and change play styles when needed. With the new abilities, especially for Paladin, I feel play has been whittled down to an overly simplified rotation that is mostly just me hitting a single button. Sure, the limit breaks are great and provide amazing party buffs, but I currently feel like an underpowered Dps as a Paladin spamming one button most of the time until I finish charging my limit break.

While I feel that the new class abilities do not fully embody the fun of playing a tank like a Paladin, I feel the new abilities for healers completely neglect what it means to be a healer. This has been a severe problem for one particular healer friend of mine as they do not feel that they are a healer in PvP anymore, just a mediocre DPS with some heals and a nice limit break. They hate the way white mage plays in PvP so much that they refuse to PvP anymore. It appears as if the large healer tool kit has been replaced with healing spells on a cool down and DPS abilities. I know that healers should DPS but when a healer cannot spam a heal to keep some one alive then it does not feel like a healer. I know that the goal of these changes was to create more meaningful choice in PvP combat but if you cannot properly fulfil the job fantasy of being a healer then the choice you made to play a healer is being negated.

If the changes to healers in PvP were to limit healing overall then alter the abilities to do less healing as opposed to gutting the way the job plays. I really hope the ff14 developers reconsider the changes they have made to tanks and healers as the changes that were made kill the fun of PvP...for me and the people I know at least. How does the rest of the community feel about this?

I think paladins should definitely have zone area denial. You know, like some holy consecration on the ground where you take extra damage if you stand in it. Warrior is on the right track, move offensive. When you think Paladin you think holy and holding your ground. It would add to their flavour.

I want Mug to be used in stealth since it's so short and it just makes no sense that we cannot. It's what I hope to see in the future.

Healers having spammable heals was literally one of the single biggest reasons that the old PvP was so bad and why this PvP is better. I guess it's understandable that your friend prefers the old White Mage because they were actually god mode and ruined the entire game.

Imagine you want to play a healer and then you are forced to DPS most of the time. If the problem is the amount of healing done then just reduce the amount of healing and not abandon the healer aesthetic. As a DPS I am sure it is annoying to try and kill someone only to be stopped by a healer but the game should not be balanced around DPS while forsaking the fun of other classes. This can be balanced without destroying class fantasy.

The real problem with SCH, AST and SGE is that their limit breaks require the team for them to be used well. If you go them you are essentially griefing your team. WHM is the only one that is reasonable but with how other jobs are, it is "not good" instead of griefing like the other healers. AST's is the funniest, 30% dmg for the team that reduces over time! Awesome figure out how to time that effectively with your non-premade, quick chat!

They should get stacks of healing for damage they do. That is how you balance spam healing.

"The real problem with SCH, AST and SGE is that their limit breaks require the team for them to be used well."

That is a good point. The limit breaks for healers are very hard to implement effectively in current PvP mode, especially with a random party trying to do Crystalline conflict on a 5 minute timer. Essentially this means that a large chunk of healer power in pvp is coming from a limit break that is hard to use effectively and may get wasted often.

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Originally Posted by TheTyrant

The real problem with SCH, AST and SGE is that their limit breaks require the team for them to be used well. If you go them you are essentially griefing your team. WHM is the only one that is reasonable but with how other jobs are, it is "not good" instead of griefing like the other healers. AST's is the funniest, 30% dmg for the team that reduces over time! Awesome figure out how to time that effectively with your non-premade, quick chat!

They should get stacks of healing for damage they do. That is how you balance spam healing.

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Me, a SGE: *uses Limit Break*

WHM: *changes me into an imp*

Sage LB: Understandable. Have a nice day.

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Originally Posted by Ranses

Imagine you want to play a healer and then you are forced to DPS most of the time.

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[looks at the entire rest of the game]

[looks straight into the camera]

If you think anything about healers is "mediocre" right now, yikes.

No, they don't just heal - and that's a deliberate and good design choice to prevent games from bogging down (like every prior version of pvp did). They're still all extremely powerful in their own individual ways. AST and WHM are both in contention (along with WAR) for top classes in the entire game.

There's no role restrictions in the new pvp mode, of course the "fantasy" of tanks and healers are going to be limited and even then a war and whm on the other team is a huge advantage.

Tanks take more of a pressure focused role. PLD is all about mitigating damage and outlasting opposition. WAR is all about being in your grill and making you have as unpleasant a time as possible. DRK and GNB just act as bruiser-style damage.

Healers take more utility in exchange for the removal of ungodly amounts of healing. Sure, their healing can save someone in a pinch, but the focus is on the soft and hard CC they apply to enemies and buffs they give to allies.

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

Sure, their healing can save someone in a pinch, but the focus is on the soft and hard CC they apply to enemies and buffs they give to allies.

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While it's fun to top DPS as SGE all the time I sure would love even half the CC/buffs that WHM has. I can put a shield on someone a bit (Which with the zerg rush mechanics and cc right now is kinda....eh) and slowly heal them over time with dosis if I'm careful and stay far out, which is then counterproductive to phlegma being all melee. It also doesn't work when I can't actually kill a dps 1v1 if I'm going to be the "damage healer." There has to be a pro/con exchange.

SCH gets Adlo and DPS buff at least, and mummification. All I get are dps which just like with my other main, GNB, isn't really helpful when WHM and WAR are just so stupidly strong.

Pneuma isn't bad but I've also run into the issue several times where I'll cast pnuema, the skill effect goes off but because I spam my gap closer to zoom in and phlegma right after for burst it acts as if pneuma never went off. Or sometimes it feels like haima gets eaten by server tick.

I'm not going to pretend like I have nothing going for me because when I kardia myself I can keep myself up for a while, but it feels like I don't get to help much with SGE compared to AST/WHM. Especially with my LB being a glorified DOTON when majority of the meta is melee. AT LEAST give the people in the bubble a dps buff or something, especially with WHM having an instant cast spammable stun nuke that gives them temperance, dps buff, and regen. @_@

I think the healer role isnt too bad WHM specifically talking, LB ready quicker then SGE AST SCH. So that's something that the other healer should get as I think it's at a good pace time to get the LB ready. Afflatus Misery isnt bad either as CD but yeah you cant dps because you're casting Glare and Glare is casting on a still target which isnt possible in pvp when you're being targeted obviously and rather self heal or Aqua. I hardly use Glare unless its 1-2 targets left alive and Seraph Strike spam whenever it's up. Using Afflatus to help knock out low HP enemies. So dps is bad only look foward to LBfor the stun

I feel the original pvp felt like every job was what it said it was. tanks tanked, heal healed, dps damaged. Now every class is treated like dps to get as many kill in as fast as possible which isn't fun to me. Tanks have it hard enough not closing distance with range player, NO tanking abilities to talk about. I could use a knock back or jump or shield bash. Why did we lose stun? Area of effect once per whatever. Dark has one tank ability that absord 8k damage, but all dps hit for 12k. As a tank i know im not hitting hard, but I shouldnt get hit hard either, even if 3 players on top of me. I can't even kill a whm it seems like without limitbreak

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Originally Posted by Ranses

Imagine you want to play a healer and then you are forced to DPS most of the time.

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We're still talking about FFXIV, right?

I disagree. I disagree in regards to both PvP and PvE content. "Kill the fun of pvp" you say. PvP was unpopular until now for a good reason. This was the main fix they needed.
Tanks in PvP right now make a lot of sense. They are hard to knock out or deal with, they have CC and they generally keep their party alive if they play well. They may not be perfect, but if you have experienced what it feels like to play multiple jobs in pvp, I would say Tanks are in an alright place.
Healers in PvP shouldn't be healing any more than they are. I played all 3 versions of PvP this game has had. And spam healing yourself or other people is the most boring gameplay experience ever conceived. Second only to trying to fight against a healer who can spam heal to stay alive as long as they want.

But even without the need for balance, I really hate it when people say things like "healers should heal", "...what it means to be healer..." etc.
In a vacuum, saying "A healer should not deal damage but heal party members instead" might be correct. But that entirely ignores how this game is designed. In order to make spamming heal buttons forever fun in this game, major parts of the game would have to be reworked. Which is to say, considering that people already have issues with jobs that the dev team haven't fixed yet, a healing rework just isn't going to happen. And I for one didn't want that anyway. I enjoyed Heavensward Scholar and I'm loving Sage now.

If you don't like it, don't try to ruin it for others who enjoy it the way it is. Especially if your opinion is based on a vaguely defined idea of "What is a healer" that is completely inconsistent with how every single piece of content is designed in this game.
Healers doing more healing and less DPS would make raiding, leveling, dungeons, fates, questing, pvp and everything else more boring.

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Originally Posted by Anoin

I disagree. I disagree in regards to both PvP and PvE content. "Kill the fun of pvp" you say. PvP was unpopular until now for a good reason. This was the main fix they needed.
Tanks in PvP right now make a lot of sense. They are hard to knock out or deal with, they have CC and they generally keep their party alive if they play well. They may not be perfect, but if you have experienced what it feels like to play multiple jobs in pvp, I would say Tanks are in an alright place.
Healers in PvP shouldn't be healing any more than they are. I played all 3 versions of PvP this game has had. And spam healing yourself or other people is the most boring gameplay experience ever conceived. Second only to trying to fight against a healer who can spam heal to stay alive as long as they want.

But even without the need for balance, I really hate it when people say things like "healers should heal", "...what it means to be healer..." etc.
In a vacuum, saying "A healer should not deal damage but heal party members instead" might be correct. But that entirely ignores how this game is designed. In order to make spamming heal buttons forever fun in this game, major parts of the game would have to be reworked. Which is to say, considering that people already have issues with jobs that the dev team haven't fixed yet, a healing rework just isn't going to happen. And I for one didn't want that anyway. I enjoyed Heavensward Scholar and I'm loving Sage now.

If you don't like it, don't try to ruin it for others who enjoy it the way it is. Especially if your opinion is based on a vaguely defined idea of "What is a healer" that is completely inconsistent with how every single piece of content is designed in this game.
Healers doing more healing and less DPS would make raiding, leveling, dungeons, fates, questing, pvp and everything else more boring.

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People that want healers to heal need to go watch some Arena World Championship and tell me if the absolute level of coordinated bullshit necessary to kill healers looks fun. We dont want that here, we really dont and from what ive been hearing Feast used to be kinda close to it.