If "button bloat" is an issue please do something similar to Summoner where abilities sort of automatically change. There are a few combos in the samurai's kit that would allow that.
If the changes made were to make the disparity of dmg during Sam's opener hopefully you can adjust that without removing abilities that were fun, engaging, and looked cool. Dont see why Kaiten couldnt have stayed, lower the potencies even further and still give them auto crit. Idk if thats a good idea, I do know that my favorite class sucks to play a lot more. I do not care that much about the numbers. I am just here to have a good time.
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04-13-2022, 11:09 AMmuchichiPlease think of better ways to lessen class skill gaps than removing abilities.
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04-13-2022, 11:14 AMKolsykol
Imo skill gaps are fine, and it's already reflected in the content as it is.
It's a scale depending on the content that you do and content where being on the higher end of the skill ceiling even matters is content where more skill in general is required.
People who can't clear the new EX for example aren't going to suddenly be able to clear it because Kaiten was removed, the removal of it isn't going to help it.
All it does is upset people who it even mattered to to begin with.
I saw someone suggest to make Kaiten cause the skills to crit which I thought sounded good.
The devs could solve their crit issue as they saw it without screwing around with the gameplay. -
04-13-2022, 11:17 AMkpxmanifesto
Ah, ability pruning. We follow in the footsteps of wow.
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04-13-2022, 11:18 AMKolsykolSoon they'll turn women into fruits.Quote:
Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto
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04-13-2022, 11:36 AMmuchichiim dreading it. Ability pruning is almost never the way to go. If anything give us more options to swap in and out.Quote:
Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto
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04-13-2022, 11:37 AMmuchichiyeah its really weird how people are excited about this change. One button was the reason you couldnt play SAM at a decent level...one button you press sometimes? Ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolsykol
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04-13-2022, 12:52 PMMomo_Kozuki
As long as SE keeps considering about nuking buttons for the sake of console players in future expansions where more skills will be added, the simplification won't stop.
Veteran will grief, but casual will rejoice. -
04-13-2022, 12:58 PMBroken_Wind
Why do people assume this is a skill issue vs simply making the game more fun (which is obviously different for different people)?
If it was just a skill gap thing why did they change Monk the way they did for EW?
not saying I agree with the changes made, but I don't think it is necessarily a skill gap issue at all. -
04-13-2022, 01:18 PMNetherealBecause Yoshi has admitted that he balances certain content with people getting carried in mind. Has also has a self admitted inclusivity agenda.Quote:
Originally Posted by Broken_Wind
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04-13-2022, 01:33 PMFyrebrand
I am totally with them on the concept of "button bloat" IN THEORY, because as time goes on and they give us more and more abilities each expansion, things can eventually build to a ridiculous situation where our screens are just covered in action bars. Frankly, I'm already at the point where some abilities don't even have keys assigned because I just click them when I need them. What can I say, my hand is only so big and there are only so many keys I can hit without moving too far away from home position or else just looking down at my keyboard.
However, I do not agree with the removal of Hissatsu: Kaiten. That was a fun skill and it was satisfying to build up towards an Iaijutsu, hit the button, and feel like "Aha! Look at that big number, look how much the HP bar just went down, I DID THAT!"
When I first saw that I stopped reading for a moment and thought "Okay, this is a blatant troll post," lol. I get what you're saying though; there are definitely abilities that could change in function during skill combos and it would do a lot more to combat "button bloat" than removing Hissatsu: Kaiten ever will.Quote:
Originally Posted by muchichi
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04-13-2022, 07:47 PMKolsykolDo casuals really rejoice tho?Quote:
Originally Posted by Momo_Kozuki
Like I've said before I think people severely underestimate casuals, I think most casuals still want it to be engaging and pose at least some challenge.
I don't think that casuals wanted Kaiten removed, why was it never brought up and complained about before then?
I've even seen people complain about Shinten but never Kaiten.
I just don't think that most casuals are so bad at the game that Kaiten was so hard to use for them, which I mean I am sry but if Kaiten was a problem then yeah...
It's the same in action games like DMC and Bayonetta, I still think casuals want to do more than just button mash.
There's a ton of people who are casuals who gave Elden Ring a shot too and ended up loving it, sometimes I think people kinda just don't know what they want and I wouldn't trust people who don't even have SAM leveled up beyond Stormblood or don't play it at all to lecture others about how SAM should play.
I just don't think that the bar for casuals are that low that they can't perform their base rotation properly or that they find it so hard that they want stuff removed.
I think that's something people bellow casual engage with. -
04-13-2022, 10:12 PMSilver-Strider
I view the entire button bloat argument as just an excuse to homogenize classes so they're easier to balance, regardless of how detrimental to class identity and enjoyment it might be. If it was truly a concern, why do skills like Undraw, Repose, Anatman, etc exist?
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04-14-2022, 12:00 AMRilifaneExactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
That is why "But console players!!" is such a bullshit argument. They have plenty of opportunities on every single class to merge and adjust skills to reduce the number of buttons without changing the gameplay in any noticeable way.
Having a skill gap, even a fairly big one, is fine. The only thing that truly matters for new players is how accessible a class is at its skill floor and if it's fine to play at skill floor level to clear mandatory (= MSQ) content. Both things can easily be accomplished without closing the gap between skill floor and skill ceiling by constantly bringing the skill ceiling down.
Everyone can clear content by playing at skill floor level. There is no necessesity for an accessible skill ceiling, nobody is entitled to being able to easily play well. I'm not a good SAM and that's okay because I don't spend time actively trying to improve. So why should someone that does want to put in the work be forced to play at my level?
Button bloat and action bloat sounds more and more like an excuse. They didn't reduce action bloat. All the kenki gets used on Shinten spam instead, number of actions remained the same. -
04-14-2022, 12:01 AMKira_Yaeger
Eventually the skill ceiling will be how hard can you faceroll 1 button on your keyboard ex. Healer and no argument will change my mind. IMO if you just took the HW class design and did a couple tweaks everything would be just fine. Buuuut Yoshi Grandmaster P already said HW is never coming back, so I guess I will have to live with the decreasing amount of skill needed to even play at a decent level and diminishing returns on pumping 500 hours into a class to learn every little cool thing that gives you satisfaction. Guess I'll just play PvP since that's what they want.
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04-14-2022, 12:08 AMforsakee
Ps4/controller player that mains SAM - We had plenty of space for all abilities. I think this was a lazy "fix" to balance sam. 2 weeks ago they had no idea on their plans and it was obvious.
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04-14-2022, 12:09 AMValkyrie_Lenneth
Threads like this are always full of hyperbole.
SAM has close to 36 buttons, 1 is removed, everyone: omg in a year we'll have one button to press, sky is falling! -
04-14-2022, 12:16 AMDerio
SAM did need pruning but not in this way. It needed consolidation to where abilites simply changed using the same button. Most jobs that havent had a rework will in the future. Cutting abilities is not the answer.
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04-14-2022, 12:26 AMforsakeeI'm fine with one ability being taken away as long as it doesn't change the gameplay/balance in a big way, plus the gameplay doesn't seem as good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth
It's a bad change disappointed in devs -
04-14-2022, 12:28 AMFhaerronIt's not about the fact that one button was removed. It more has to do with which one that got removed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth
The other changes weren't good for same either like always crit and reduced potency on the 'finishers'.
There where other ways to adres this and other buttons to remove and/or combine, etc. -
04-14-2022, 12:52 AMSilver-StriderSAM has 36 buttons because instead of simply making Shoha upgrade into Shoha 2 and Ikishoten turning into Oni Namikiri, they made them into their own actions and instead of rectifying that, they decided to remove a skill that actually required proper thought and resource management to utilize.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth
It was an asinine decision that did nothing but make the Kenki Gauge into little more than the Shinten guage and addressed "button bloat" in the worst way imaginable. -
04-14-2022, 01:07 AMValkyrie_LennethKaiten requires no thought and minimal resource management.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
Them removing it takes that to 0 yes, but it was almost nonexistent before...
It needs a rework, but kaiten going is not the main problem. The job was basically broken in 6.0 and needs a good fixing. 5.x sam was the best version, and I found 4.x sam more enjoyable and better flowing than 6.0(8). -
04-14-2022, 02:06 AMmuchichiOnce muscle memory kicks in Kaiten does not require much thought that doesn’t mean remove it though. It was still a very satisfying part of the SAM rotation. It was like a lightning strike before the thunder claps. Silent then BOOM!Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth
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04-14-2022, 02:24 AMSilver-StriderBroken is subjective and given the MASSIVE backlash from basically everyone across all 3 communities, I don't think it was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth