Walk it Back: Hissatsu Kaiten

"Oh but devs like megathreads more."

You know what's cooler then a megathread? Not ruining jobs. Revert it.

If the devs follow through on removing Kaiten, the only thing it proves to us, is that the player experience doesn't matter, and that they not only don't care about player feedback, but that their job design team is incredibly out of touch.

I mean, the patch has gone through QA and is set in stone at this point. Its highly unlikely to see a last minute change.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

I mean, the patch has gone through QA and is set in stone at this point. Its highly unlikely to see a last minute change.

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Last minute change? Probably not. Reversion, like they did with Hagakure removal in early ShB? That's very much on the table. They key is to not stop making a stink about this. Highlight Yoshi P.'s inconsistent view on this; he states that the lack of resource management was a major problem in 1.0, as people would just use the most powerful spell available to them, yet here they are implementing a change that removes what little resource management SAM has. It feels like whoever was responsible for this decision knows little-to-nothing about SAM as a job. At least *some* resource management is leagues better than the absolute mindless Shinten spam that will replace it, which, incidentally, goes counter to what the devs said regarding the direction they wanted SAM to go in ShB (less Shinten, more Iaijutsu).

I'd rather take the automatic crit over the damage buff, but that's just me.... seriously you'd think they were deleting the job entirely the way some samurai players are acting.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

I'd rather take the automatic crit over the damage buff, but that's just me.... seriously you'd think they were deleting the job entirely the way some samurai players are acting.

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They may as well given how badly sam will synergize with jobs that buff crit rates. Statics can work around it, but its probably going to be a problem for PF groups.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

I'd rather take the automatic crit over the damage buff, but that's just me.... seriously you'd think they were deleting the job entirely the way some samurai players are acting.

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Honestly, they might as well just delete the job because most SAM players are going to stop playing it because of this. Myself included.

I actually went on the official forums here to put my voice in on this as well. I can take the crit thing but changing a very integral part of the job rotation to reduce bloat that the devs introduced themselves by adding new abilities/weaponskills themselves is really frustrating.

If they need to cull abilities go for something else. I've seen people suggest making shoha become shoha II at 82, I've seen it suggested that Ikishoten become Ogi Namikiri, or that Hissatsu: Senei be removed instead and just go back to 4.0 where we only had Guren. I'd prefer all of these over the removal of this ability.

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Originally Posted by KatsukoYashiro

If they need to cull abilities go for something else. I've seen people suggest making shoha become shoha II at 82, I've seen it suggested that Ikishoten become Ogi Namikiri, or that Hissatsu: Senei be removed instead and just go back to 4.0 where we only had Guren. I'd prefer all of these over the removal of this ability.

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There's an even more genius idea I've read where someone suggested instead of removing Senei, it instead becomes an upgrade to Shinten (still as a kenki dump, not the 2m cd) instead. Keep the fancy animation that way, it's at least more satisfying to press visually so people wouldn't mind if the kenki cost was higher to lower the "action bloat" or APM on Samurai.
Addresses both button bloat, and the mistranslation of "action bloat" from the stream. Because apparently we're just too damn busy somehow.

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Originally Posted by Edweena

There's an even more genius idea I've read where someone suggested instead of removing Senei, it instead becomes an upgrade to Shinten (still as a kenki dump, not the 2m cd) instead. Keep the fancy animation that way, it's at least more satisfying to press visually so people wouldn't mind if the kenki cost was higher to lower the "action bloat" or APM on Samurai.
Addresses both button bloat, and the mistranslation of "action bloat" from the stream. Because apparently we're just too damn busy somehow.

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Senei would be better merged with Guren IMO, seeing as they're on the same CD and might as well be two sides of the same coin. A better rework would be unlocking Senei when you unlock Guren, then have it upgrade to Guren when you normally unlock Senei. Keep the same massive damage for the first target, throw in some 50 - 75% drop off for every target that isn't primary and boom, we've saved ourselves a button without really affecting how the class plays in a major way. Iaijutsu and Tsubame-Gaeshi should get combined onto the same button as well, and the charges for Tsubame should just show on your gauge. If there's a stack there, have Midare Setsugekka change to Kaeshi Setsugekka after you use it, same way the Ogi Namikiri and Kaeshi Namakiri work just now. There's a whole bunch of little tweaks that SAM players are talking about that make far more sense than removing Kaiten. Makes you wonder who's asking for these changes, who's testing these changes and who's actually implementing them.

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Originally Posted by Apopopo

that they not only don't care about player feedback, but that their job design team is incredibly out of touch.

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Yeah, they don't care at all about player feedback... Healers are the absolute proof of that.

Not gonna lie. I'm actually pretty pleased with this change. In this one instance, the pruning was mostly warranted. It is not an ideal solution, but it is one that works. Dragoon, on the other hand, I am rather concerned for. >_> Its entire identity is having an unreasonable number of abilities, and all of its abilities serve a purpose. I don't know what they intend to prune from it, but RIP.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Not gonna lie. I'm actually pretty pleased with this change. In this one instance, the pruning was mostly warranted. It is not an ideal solution, but it is one that works. Dragoon, on the other hand, I am rather concerned for. >_> Its entire identity is having an unreasonable number of abilities, and all of its abilities serve a purpose. I don't know what they intend to prune from it, but RIP.

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Removing Kaiten affects Samurai mechanically like merging High Jump / Mirage Dive on DRG, if not more. As it is now with Samurai we don't even have to track our UI element of Kenki anymore (both Shinten and Shoha light up when you can use them) since we'll just be dumping it ASAP on Shinten, no questions asked.
The only minor intricacies still present are the tiniest bit of pooling for the 2m buff window (RIP Trick Attack's 1m buff window), but even then we still get 50 free gauge just like that, so the difference between a Samurai that pools and one who doesn't is minimal.
This change invalidates our resource to the point we're better off having charges for the abilities like Bards do with Raind of Death / Bloodletter OGCD's, in a very scorched earth kind of way.

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Originally Posted by SlickPaws

Senei would be better merged with Guren IMO, seeing as they're on the same CD and might as well be two sides of the same coin. A better rework would be unlocking Senei when you unlock Guren, then have it upgrade to Guren when you normally unlock Senei. Keep the same massive damage for the first target, throw in some 50 - 75% drop off for every target that isn't primary and boom, we've saved ourselves a button without really affecting how the class plays in a major way. Iaijutsu and Tsubame-Gaeshi should get combined onto the same button as well, and the charges for Tsubame should just show on your gauge. If there's a stack there, have Midare Setsugekka change to Kaeshi Setsugekka after you use it, same way the Ogi Namikiri and Kaeshi Namakiri work just now. There's a whole bunch of little tweaks that SAM players are talking about that make far more sense than removing Kaiten. Makes you wonder who's asking for these changes, who's testing these changes and who's actually implementing them.

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I get what you mean with Senei and Guren being merged / one dumped, my suggestion is essentially the same but largely advocates for the idea of abandoning Shinten's animation for Senei's animation instead.
They'd be mechanically identical as Senei would be our new kenki dump (even with the same kenki cost), and all that cool animation would still be in the game.
Any reservations anyone would have about not axing either Hissatu abilities (because of how pretty the animations are) could be addressed this way as we'd trim one of them from being a 2m cd into a regular kenki dump.
No one likes the Shinten animation so this seems like a perfect solution to all possible parties.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Not gonna lie. I'm actually pretty pleased with this change. In this one instance, the pruning was mostly warranted. It is not an ideal solution, but it is one that works. Dragoon, on the other hand, I am rather concerned for. >_> Its entire identity is having an unreasonable number of abilities, and all of its abilities serve a purpose. I don't know what they intend to prune from it, but RIP.

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That doesn't hold any water though. If lowering the absolute number of keybinds used then there are so many better options to choose from. Common suggestions are the use of a trait to upgrade Shoha to Shoha 2, adding damage falloff to preserve the aoe potency as-is; changing Ikishoten after use into Ogi Namikiri, which will further change into Kaeshi: Namakiri; using a trait to upgrade Guren to Senei, with the same damage falloff treatment as Shoha 2; and consolidating Jinpu/Gekko and Shifu/Kasha into a single button. Any one of these would be a better solution to lowering SAM keybinds than removing Kaiten.

"But it's not about the number of buttons but rather the number of actions" some people have said, citing a "mistranslation" of SE's own slide (that SE translated no less). Well, that doesn't hold water either:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...oat-on-Samurai

The tl;dr here is that, as of 6.0, SAM is using about five Kaiten's a minute, aka 5 casts of Kaiten per minute. Translating that Kenki into Shinten's you get 4 casts per minute. Taken in the grand scheme of CPM on a SAM, you're lowering the casts per minute from 45-46 down to 44-45. In the course of a six minute fight, SAM will press six fewer buttons than they did before, which functionally amounts to nothing. The tradeoff for this one-less-cast-per-minute is a complete gutting of any resource engagement with the job and a dumping of the skill ceiling down to the floor (and the floor into the sewers). Any fun the job had, any sense of satisfaction for carefully planning out and managing Kenki usage, however small it may have been, is now gone. The term for this is "skill expression." SAM does well enough without proper use of Kaiten, but proper use of Kaiten let's people who take the time to practice find a way to be better than the average. SAM was great because it had a low skill floor, but all the nuances baked into various parts of the job allowed people who wanted to push themselves to do so. There really was no greater feeling than going through a fight knowing you never wasted a single point of Kenki, that every Kaiten was done perfectly, exactly when needed, with no clipped GCD's, misaligned raid buffs or cooldowns that were sat on. That's going to be gone on Tuesday, and until they bring it back I'm not going to stop.

Kaiten was easily one of my favorite skills in the game... It felt so good to use and weave in -_-.
This change was met with such overwhelming negativity from basically every forum and content creator, take a damn hint devs please...

Walk it back. This is a terrible change. The devs clearly are out of touch with the jobs they are balancing