If we must have the lottery please let us withdraw entries and try another plot

It's no secret that I have no love for the concept of the lottery, but since it appears an inevitability, I think we might do better put aside our pro/con arguments and unite under the banner of trying to make it as fair as possible for all of us, once it gets here.

Having examined my (albeit many) objections to the implementation of it I feel that my biggest complaint is being locked into my first choice no matter how many others throw their lott in on that specific plot- even if there is the same plot three wards down with no entries. Remember that I am on materia and we will have an entire data centre released under the lottery so this is a very real issue.

I would think that in the interest of true fairness, individuals should be free to withdraw their bid and place a bid on another plot should they change their mind. After all in the [much maligned] FCFS model if one did not get their first choice, they were free to skip to a subdivision/other ward and try again there. This is how I got my FC a large back on Coeurl during a fresh ward release and is an option that I feel the lottery should NOT remove from the player base.

If you can only place one entry at a time, it is only reasonable to expect that you can withdraw your entry and put it elsewhere if you see that your chances are slim. Far better to have the worst Goblet small for the FC than no house at all and be locked out of workshops altogether. As the model stands our single entry is locked into the first plot, I can see this causing issues with people waiting until the very last minute in order to avoid lotting on houses with many entries and that is hardly going to be helpful.

Far better to allow people to change their minds and therefore create a better balance of entries over the time of the entry period.

I am also concerned with FCs having multiple entries, surely this creates an unfair advantage to FCs with many wealthy players over the FC who has scraped together enough for a shot at a large. If the purpose of the lottery is to level the playing field, then actually level the playing field for all.

One entry per person and one entry per FC should be the standard, then it really is fair for all. (As fair as RNG hell can be for anyone, that is.)

Let's set aside our differences on the concept as a whole and unite in an effort to call for tweaks to the proposed system that actually do allow us all a truly equal shot while we still have a chance to affect change. :)

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Originally Posted by LunaFancy

I would think that in the interest of true fairness, individuals should be free to withdraw their bid and place a bid on another plot should they change their mind. After all in the [much maligned] FCFS model if one did not get their first choice, they were free to skip to a subdivision/other ward and try again there. This is how I got my FC a large back on Coeurl during a fresh ward release and is an option that I feel the lottery should NOT remove from the player base.

If you can only place one entry at a time, it is only reasonable to expect that you can withdraw your entry and put it elsewhere if you see that your chances are slim. Far better to have the worst Goblet small for the FC than no house at all and be locked out of workshops altogether. As the model stands our single entry is locked into the first plot, I can see this causing issues with people waiting until the very last minute in order to avoid lotting on houses with many entries and that is hardly going to be helpful.

Far better to allow people to change their minds and therefore create a better balance of entries over the time of the entry period.

I am also concerned with FCs having multiple entries, surely this creates an unfair advantage to FCs with many wealthy players over the FC who has scraped together enough for a shot at a large. If the purpose of the lottery is to level the playing field, then actually level the playing field for all.

One entry per person and one entry per FC should be the standard, then it really is fair for all. (As fair as RNG hell can be for anyone, that is.)

Let's set aside our differences on the concept as a whole and unite in an effort to call for tweaks to the proposed system that actually do allow us all a truly equal shot while we still have a chance to affect change. :)

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It is no secret that I am a proponent of the lottery. What you propose, I think, might have some merit. If it was tied to people being able to see the number of bids on a plot but not who bid on a plot, it might serve to distribute the bids more evenly. I wonder if you could elaborate more on your idea. Would there be unlimited chances to withdraw bids during a particular bidding period or a limited number of chances to withdraw? Would there be a cut-off period? While I support the Lottery model, there may be ways to improve upon it to make it less painful. You appear to be making an effort to do just that. Thank you.

I think the bids should be anonymous, that goes without saying, I also feel we should be able to see exactly how many bids there are on a plot. The bid numbers should be updated at reset (ideally twice a day but in the interest of simplifying things at the developer level reset would suffice).

My proposal would be that we could change our entry status once per reset up until the final day, at which point we are locked in. I think this will mean people feel comfortable bidding across the duration of the lottery period as opposed to waiting til the last minute and so we'll have a clearer picture of what is going on when we bid.

The pros and cons arguments have been made, but if we can set aside our differences and rally as a whole we can hopefully make the lottery system that is coming as fair for all of us as it can be.

There has to be some sort of deterrent to discourage people from nilly willy changing their bids though as that would confuse people who submitted a bid based on information that could vary if bids are withdrawable.

Perhaps a withdrawal fee based on the 20% of the plot price would reduce such situations so people are serious about their bids but would still be able to if they are ok with paying the withdrawal fee.

If you can only withdraw once a day and the numbers update at reset I don't see that what you are concerned about will be an issue, restricting the number of withdrawals to one per reset should be enough in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by DeNada

There has to be some sort of deterrent to discourage people from nilly willy changing their bids though as that would confuse people who submitted a bid based on information that could vary if bids are withdrawable.

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People are going to wait until the last hour or so to place bids. There won't be any accurate information about how many have or will bid until the last hour assuming the bid number on the house is shown and updated upon entry. Letting people change isn't and shouldn't be a problem. It at least gives some who are willing to work at finding a house with a few bids and increasing their chance for getting a house.

Be that as it may they've already appear to have made the decision to not allow withdrawals so I know personally I'm going to wait and I'm sure I won't be the only one.

With respect to Materia I hope we will have a mix of FCFS and Lotto in the older housing districts or restrict lotto to Ishgard only. That certainly hasn't been made clear by the post on the special site. We'll know the full playing field in a few days when they discuss this during the live letter.

I feel for people on Materia who actually gave up houses with the expectation they would be able to FCFS a house on the new data center because it's always been that way and the initial discussion of housing stated there would at the least be a mix of FCFS and Lotto but that certainly appears to have changed.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

I feel for people on Materia who actually gave up houses with the expectation they would be able to FCFS a house on the new data center because it's always been that way and the initial discussion of housing stated there would be a mix of FCFS and Lotto but that certainly appears to have changed.

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I would be one of those people sadly, the last live letter made it clear that ALL wards being released in 61, I gave up a large personal to move and I would not have done so had they been transparent about this at the launch of the data centre.

Be that as it may, the challenge now is to come together as a community to at least try to make a case for setting up the lottery system to be less punishing than the current proposal is going to be.

As you say, people will wait until the last minute to bid with the system that has been proposed and it is going to be chaotic at best.

Nothing is set in stone until the patch drops, though and the devs have a track record of listening to player concerns so let's make a case for changes that will make the process better while we still have a chance to be heard.

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Originally Posted by LunaFancy

I would be one of those people sadly, the last live letter made it clear that ALL wards being released in 61, I gave up a large personal to move and I would not have done so had they been transparent about this at the launch of the data centre.

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Wow giving up a large is quite a jump and i hope you don't get shut out.

In my case i transferred and skipped an alt and gave her gil before the transfer. The xp buff has been pretty amazing relative to leveling given i have 6 roles at 84 or higher and have my character ready to do the 89 dungeon and should get to endgame today or tomorrow.

My FC is almost rank 12 and I want basically a small or perhaps a medium but be more than happy with a small in a good location. I'm there with a few friends who also decided to make characters on the DC. Obviously the prime locations will be those with the most bids and being able to shop around in different wards will take time.

I've never had a problem getting a house with FCFS and that includes the large I own on Siren in Shiro which i got wiith the 4.1 Shiro Extreme housing addition. I own houses on other servers mostly small FC's I share with alts and a few friend and they are all in prime locations. With Materia I think there is a good chance at being shut out especially on Sophia which has the highest population atm,.

I'm indifferent to bid withdrawl since in both cases there is capacity for gaming the system. Either with last second bids or askng your friends to fake-bid to discourage competition. It's just the case of which you find more annoying.

In regards to FCs having an advantage with multiple bids, Yoshida specifically addressed this in LL and stated that such advantage is intentional. To SE an FC house is more valuable than a personal one since more players get to interact with it. Personal-only wards will alleviate this a bit.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

Personal-only wards will alleviate this a bit.

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Personal wards only work in Emperyum. They won't work in Lavender Beds, Ul'dah, Mist, Shirogane 1-24.

After Emperyum is over and done with, and we are back to one demo a week, those FC advantages will actually be quite substantial.

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Originally Posted by Shibi

Personal wards only work in Emperyum. They won't work in Lavender Beds, Ul'dah, Mist, Shirogane 1-24.

After Emperyum is over and done with, and we are back to one demo a week, those FC advantages will actually be quite substantial.

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And SE of course wasn't talking a whole lot about how this new system can be flexibly activated on individual-ward basis because they have no intention to adjust those settings as they see fit.

And even then, I'm not that fussed if SE slowly phases personal housing out again.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

...And even then, I'm not that fussed if SE slowly phases personal housing out again.

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That's where I see it heading, for sure.

Wait until the end of the lottery period to make your entry if you're worried about competition. That way you're not locked into anything until it would be too late to change regardless.

Allowing players to withdraw entries would lead to a lot of trolling by players who just want to mess with others. Better to make entries an irrevocable commitment. Someone might still be trolling but they would be limited to trolling that singular plot for that lottery.

People fear the large FC advantage too much. A FC might have a few wealthy players but are those wealthy players going to trust other members with very large amounts of their gil when such a trade will be honor system since SE won't get involved if someone decides to keep the gil for personal use? Don't forget that making an entry for a FC means not entering for a personal house and few people are going to give up their opportunity to secure their personal house for a FC they may not even belong to a few months later. Smaller FCs composed of close friends are going to be more dangerous competition than large FCs composed of people who barely know one another.

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Originally Posted by Eraden

It is no secret that I am a proponent of the lottery. What you propose, I think, might have some merit. If it was tied to people being able to see the number of bids on a plot but not who bid on a plot, it might serve to distribute the bids more evenly. I wonder if you could elaborate more on your idea. Would there be unlimited chances to withdraw bids during a particular bidding period or a limited number of chances to withdraw? Would there be a cut-off period? While I support the Lottery model, there may be ways to improve upon it to make it less painful. You appear to be making an effort to do just that. Thank you.

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I've heard many saying that placards will be displaying the number of entries on a plot. I don't know whether this is true and I missed some information that SE released at some point.

It is extremely unlikely that SE would ever display the names of those who have entered because of harassment concerns.

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Originally Posted by Shibi

Personal wards only work in Emperyum. They won't work in Lavender Beds, Ul'dah, Mist, Shirogane 1-24.

After Emperyum is over and done with, and we are back to one demo a week, those FC advantages will actually be quite substantial.

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Every ward will be getting a designation as a FC purchase ward or an individual purchase ward, not just those in Empyreum. One of the slides from the last live letter made this clear.
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...803-03-2022%29 (scroll to the bottom for the housing related info)

I think some players are a bit confused by the new system. The FC/individual designations only affect who may attempt to purchase newly available plots within a ward. It does not affect existing owners in that ward. SE will also change the purchase designations on occasion so the wards stay what they consider a healthy mix of personal and FC to make the neighborhoods feel active, or to make sure that FCs are not having difficulty obtaining a house. Wards will still be mixed in ownership, though it will take Empyreum wards a while to reach that state.

Players seeking a personal house will no longer be competing against FCs seeking a house. They will only be competing against others trying to get a personal house. FCs will only be competing against FCs trying to get a house. FC advantage is going to be dependent on how many entries they can accumulate compared to other FCs entering.

On the one hand, I am not commenting on what's going on over at OCE worlds. I think that's a special case and warrants different consideration by the devs. tbh I think the current housing wards should be FCFS, the new ones in Ishgard all lotto. But that's just my opinion there, obviously I have no stake there, and so take anything I say about it with a grain of salt.

For the established servers, however, I'm of the opinion there's too much chance for abuse to allow people to withdraw tickets and put them into other plots. Of course, I have no idea how they plan to implement the lotto other than the very brief amount of info they've given. On learning new information my opinion on this may change.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Wait until the end of the lottery period to make your entry if you're worried about competition. That way you're not locked into anything until it would be too late to change regardless.

Allowing players to withdraw entries would lead to a lot of trolling by players who just want to mess with others. Better to make entries an irrevocable commitment. Someone might still be trolling but they would be limited to trolling that singular plot for that lottery.

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That's the issue though, anyone with any sense at all will be waiting until the last minute to make a bid lol! It's going to be a mess. I don't see how withdrawing bids can cause an issue with trolling if it is restricted to one withdrawal a day and the numbers are reset once a day. You can only check the numbers after reset so there will be no space to troll others with your single daily withdrawal?

With regards to informing us of the numbers already entered, it was on one of the slides in the Live Letter that announced that the lottery would be happening on all wards.

I agree that OCE should be treated as separate from the other data centres, but apparently the devs do not. If the issue has something to do with coding and doing a release of Ishgard as lottery independent of the other wards being released, then it makes more sense to release the other wards a week or two earlier than it does to inflict a lottery across and entire data centre. I wish i knew how we could bring this sort of thing to their attention outside of these forums as I fear that not having the numbers of NA or the JP presence means we will be utterly overlooked in terms of feedback.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

...The FC/individual designations only affect who may attempt to purchase newly available plots within a ward. It does not affect existing owners in that ward. SE will also change the purchase designations on occasion so the wards stay what they consider a healthy mix of personal and FC to make the neighborhoods feel active, or to make sure that FCs are not having difficulty obtaining a house. Wards will still be mixed in ownership, though it will take Empyreum wards a while to reach that state.....

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Thanks for the clear-up.

I wonder if people will post angry threads when they see the one demolished plot for the fortnight appear in a FC ward so they can't enter the raffle for it?

Agreed, allowing withdrawals with no penalties will simply allow players to troll bids or rig their bids to help their friends eg. mass bidding on a plot to give the illusion that there's a lot of competition only to withdraw their bids near the end, hence allowing their friend to sneak their win with zero competitors.

As I've said, there has to be some sort of deterrent and I feel that the 20% of plot price is a decent one since it's not a negligible amount but still lower than the 50% penalty if you win a bid but choose not to accept it.

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Originally Posted by DeNada

Agreed, allowing withdrawals with no penalties will simply allow players to troll bids or rig their bids to help their friends eg. mass bidding on a plot to give the illusion that there's a lot of competition only to withdraw their bids near the end, hence allowing their friend to sneak their win with zero competitors.

As I've said, there has to be some sort of deterrent and I feel that the 20% of plot price is a decent one since it's not a negligible amount but still lower than the 50% penalty if you win a bid but choose not to accept it.

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No amount of gil would be a deterrent. Plot prices SE has establshed in no way represent the real value of those plots. Gil is highly abundant while housing is extremely limited. Given the option, many would be fine paying hundreds of millions for a guaranteed house. In fact they had already done just that before SE closed immediate relocation loophole.

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Originally Posted by DeNada

As I've said, there has to be some sort of deterrent and I feel that the 20% of plot price is a decent one since it's not a negligible amount but still lower than the 50% penalty if you win a bid but choose not to accept it.

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20% of a mere 3,000,000 is only 600,000 gil.

Most level 90 players have the capability to earn more than this daily if they try. Heck I earn more than this in a day and I'm not even into ShadowBringers yet.

Edit to say : If it wouldn't encourage the Gil Sellers even more I'd almost suggest SE jacked the price of housing right up. 999,999,999 for a large, 500,000,000 for a medium, and 100,000,000 for a small. Still only a few months to earn enough for a small. But sadly, it would be a boom time for Gil Sellers and the game would collapse.

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Originally Posted by Shibi

Thanks for the clear-up.

I wonder if people will post angry threads when they see the one demolished plot for the fortnight appear in a FC ward so they can't enter the raffle for it?

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Of course some players will. As long as they do not have a house and their attempts to get one keep failing, they will continue to be angry that other players have what they can't get. Sadly, they'll blame the other players instead of blaming those really responsible - the developers.

Many of them will resort to making shell FCs to improve their chances of getting a house. It's not hard to get friends to use their alts to help form a new FC, or they could invite new players. The main they want to have a house enters for a personal in a personal purchase ward, use alts to purchase entries for a FC house in the FC purchase wards. Someone prepared in advance could get a FC to rank 6 in less than an hour by spamming Expert Deliveries (lots of cheap level 80 end game gear on the MB to buy to turn in).

I know you and Azuri talked above about removing personal housing but that would be a mistake on SE's part at a time they are actively trying to attract solo players to the game. Having a home for your character can be an important part of a solo game style for many. Remove personal housing and you just encourage more players to make shell FCs for the sake of getting a house. Nothing gets solved and legitimate FCs find it harder to get a house due to increased competition.

SE needs to stop slapping bandaids on the system and fix it. This is getting ridiculous considering other games don't have a problem providing their players with housing. I know the devs have a certain vision in mind but there comes a point when you need to accept that vision is not resonating with or working for most of your paying customers.

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Originally Posted by DeNada

Agreed, allowing withdrawals with no penalties will simply allow players to troll bids or rig their bids to help their friends eg. mass bidding on a plot to give the illusion that there's a lot of competition only to withdraw their bids near the end, hence allowing their friend to sneak their win with zero competitors.

As I've said, there has to be some sort of deterrent and I feel that the 20% of plot price is a decent one since it's not a negligible amount but still lower than the 50% penalty if you win a bid but choose not to accept it.

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I think you underestimate just how much gil some of the trolls have. A few of the known housing trolls have multiple characters and retainers at gil cap - that's why they could keep relocating over and over just to reset purchase timers and piss off those who had spent hours placard camping.

Loss of a plot's purchase price multiple times meant nothing to them. Losing a few hundred thousand gil would mean even less.

There is no adequate deterrent when it's only gil at stake. Gil is too easy to make.

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Originally Posted by LunaFancy

One entry per person and one entry per FC should be the standard, then it really is fair for all. (As fair as RNG hell can be for anyone, that is.)

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I do agree that FCs should just have one lottery entry since there are going to be FC only plots. The same way private buyers are going to have one ticket for private-only lots. The again, will there even be private-only lots? Or will it be FC-only and FC or private lots? Likely the latter...

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Originally Posted by dspguy

I do agree that FCs should just have one lottery entry since there are going to be FC only plots. The same way private buyers are going to have one ticket for private-only lots. The again, will there even be private-only lots? Or will it be FC-only and FC or private lots? Likely the latter...

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There will be both FC purchase wards and individual purchase wards in 6.0.

SE has also said that they will change ward designations in the future as needed. Their primary goal is to make sure plots are available for FCs but they also know that FC demand is lower than personal demand. If what they initially set aside for FCs does not fill rapidly, they'll start switching more wards to personal purchase.

As for one entry per FC, I can't get behind that. I'd rather see larger FCs have an advantage over small FCs because too many small FCs are just shells being operated by solo players to get workshop access and by RMT. At least the larger FCs are genuine FCs. Small FCs can still come up with multiple entries so the disadvantage isn't as large as it seems.

And fears that large FCs will have hundreds of FCs are unfounded. It's not feasible when that means coming up with the plot price hundreds of times (FCs generally are not rich, it's individual players that are rich) not to mention trust between the member and the FC to refund the gil to the FC if the entry loses and for members not to screw around with land acquisition rights while they're granted them. "Here, we're going to give you 20 million gil to place an entry on a medium house" "Sure thanks [ha ha I'm only going to enter for a small and keep the rest of that gil for myself!]"

I'm late to the party, but I do feel this is a great, impartial way to give everyone a fair chance. Being able to withdraw because you see too many entries, and go somewhere with fewer will even the bids out and make entrants feel like they have some control over their chances. I'm also a fan of the one entry per FC. Just like private buyers, if they don't win they can try again in the next round.
Excellent suggestion! Hopefully it gets noticed.

I don't see the issue, if you don't like the odds roll for a not wanted plot and then try and move up the tiers in size instead?

Once per reset. Yes, I like that

Wait until the last day to bid if you're worried about the number of bidders. Withdrawals open the system up to abuse in my view. One does not need to place a bid the minute the lottery goes live.

Well how about now? Lottery results came just 40 minutes ago. I had entered the bid for a M plot in Lav Beds as FC representative... When we already have a L house. I wanted to get the M house in the same ward as my FCs current L house, and in my excitement, I completely forgot that wards are now FC and personal specific. The intent was to keep M as a personal. So, out of other 8, I won. I can't finalize the purchase, because I don't want to relocate my FC from its current L, however I also don't have the option to withdraw anywhere. If I wait until the period is over, I see a loss of 50% of the M plot's value.

So truly, my only option now is to pass leadership to someone else in my FC or an alt, and keep the M I just won with a new FC tag, just so I can keep my money's worth... All because I got too excited and didn't think properly before making the bid.

Is it a fair punishment? You tell me.

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Originally Posted by Dundy444

Well how about now? Lottery results came just 40 minutes ago. I had entered the bid for a M plot in Lav Beds as FC representative... When we already have a L house. I wanted to get the M house in the same ward as my FCs current L house, and in my excitement, I completely forgot that wards are now FC and personal specific. So, out of other 8, I won. I can't finalize the purchase, because I don't want to relocate my FC from its current L, however I also don't have the option to withdraw anywhere. If I wait until the period is over, I see a loss of 50% of the M plot's value.

So truly, my only option now is to pass leadership to someone else in my FC or an alt, and keep the M I just won with a new FC tag, just so I can keep my money's worth... All because I got too excited and didn't think properly before making the bid.

Is it a fair punishment? You tell me.

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Yes. You've been presented with all you needed to make an informed decision. You didn't.

I could see Personal Housing phased out, and Apartments/Island Sanctuary brought in as a replacement for them, as Apartments would likely be easier on the server, whilst Island Sanctuary would provide both gardening (the only major feature locked behind non-FC Housing), and possibly even a place for outdoor furnishings. Upgradeable apartments were mentioned back in Stormblood, so it's not like the idea's new.

That I do understand, but what does it cost to have the "No I do not want to finalize this purchase" option right there on the placard? That's the part that boggles me. At this point I'm glad I get my two options that I stated before, but I fail to understand how giving me the option to not take the plot is a problem. Why wait so long, if the decision will be the same?

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Originally Posted by Dundy444

That I do understand, but what does it cost to have the "No I do not want to finalize this purchase" option right there on the placard? That's the part that boggles me. At this point I'm glad I get my two options that I stated before, but I fail to understand how giving me the option to not take the plot is a problem. Why wait so long, if the decision will be the same?

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Because you have wasted someone's opportunity to get that house.

This is the reason why you aren't allowed to withdraw bids either. If everybody was free to try their chances at the lotto, win and walk away after wasting everyones' time there would inevitably be trolls who would do that intentionally.