Endwalker dungeon pacing is not fun.

Basically title. I get it. Wall to wall pulls containing multiple mob pack pulls are probably the biggest point of contention amongst players from casual to hardcore when it comes to dungeons specifically. However, while SE might have been playing it safe by designing all EW dungeons to be no more than two mob packs at a time, they also made some of the most boring dungeons to date. I like running dungeons usually, and while I am generally fine with the pattern they have decided upon(mobs > boss > repeatx3), the technical(not artistic) design of the EW dungeons leaves much to be desired.

There isn't a single dungeon this expansion where you are able to pull more than two mob packs. The ONLY example that comes close is the two mob pack plus one wanderer in the two pulls before the final boss in the lvl81 dungeon. That's it. Where across every other expansion, at least HALF of the dungeons had at least one opportunity to pull more than two mob packs. This may not seem like much to most, but this helps immensely to break up the monotony of standard dungeon runs.

Even the level 90 dungeons are a bore, with the only sort of fun coming from the bosses of the lvl90 story dungeon that can actually pose some sort of difficulty(healers ensure your Esuna is equipped, and heal to full to cleanse Doom). I at least expected something more from the other lvl90 dungeons, particularly the extra two dungeons you unlock as those are post-MSQ, and would be a fantastic place to test your abilities to their fullest. Remember that first pull of Akadaemia Anyder? If you went wall to wall that was technically three mob packs plus a wanderer. At fresh lvl80, that was a difficult yet very FUN pull to do to really test yourself at your job and role. In addition to that, I was(and still am) always excited to get Ravel Keep or Mt. Gulg for the same reason, because I get the opportunity to perform wall to wall massive pulls that make dungeons for someone like me more enjoyable. This trend continued throughout ShB even to the last dungeon, where you could help break the first boulder and pull from the beginning of the dungeon all the way to the first boss. That was FUN.

I am not saying every dungeon has to have a wall to wall pull, or that they must be difficult, and while I understand you are planning to release "Savage dungeons" or whatever they will be called, I am just saddened by the state of the dungeons we have gotten so far this expansion. At minimum, for every single pull you force us to do in a dungeon(elevator in lvl83, or between jump pads in lvl87) there should be equal amounts of opportunities to do a wall to wall or other interesting pulls in between bosses.

I agree wholeheartedly. I know most people are going to say "LOL ITS JUST DUNGEONS WHO CARES" which is a weak argument they use for any issues relating to dungeons. Every dungeon should ive you the option to pull EVERY PACK between bosses. Maybe most people can handle 2 packs, and thats fine, but what if my friend and I want to pull everything? Shouldn't we have the player choice? It's the reason I hate getting dungeons like matoyas with its stupid walls that limit you to 2 packs.

I know the dev team has reached a design stage that they are comfortable with, which is great I do like that FF14 content cycles and most content are predictable but they really should try taking more risks in dungeon content, there is nothing to lose.

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Originally Posted by Annihilism

I agree wholeheartedly. I know most people are going to say "LOL ITS JUST DUNGEONS WHO CARES" which is a weak argument they use for any issues relating to dungeons.

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And a weak argument for any other form of content, too.



>> "This seems of (wastefully) poor quality."
<< "Well, duh; it's disposable. It doesn't have to be good."
>> "Then, why are we wasting funds on disposable product when, at relatively little added expense relative to other means of similar value produced, we could instead give those products lasting and significant quality?"

Honestly I feel dungeons as a whole aren't really that fun anymore. After ARR, dungeons have become nothing more than full on straight lines. I miss dungeons like Sunken Temple where we had to solve puzzles to progress and it felt like we were actually on an adventure. Now don't get me wrong I don't mind hallway dungeons when they make sense from a design perspective like Tam Tara, or Keeper of the Lake. However I'd enjoy seeing dungeons like Thousand Maws return where there were multiple paths you could take and just explore. I miss the exploration aspect that we used to have, not just this constant hallway to wall pull that we have now. It's not really that fun or engaging in any meaningful way. If I wanted to play a hallway simulator I'd play Final Fantasy X, or Final Fantasy XIII or even Call of Duty.

If you go through each dungeon that we have you’ll see that the devs provided us with its own individual gimmicks. Puzzles, traps, exploration, elevators. After experiencing each one multiple times of course they get stale. We tend to forget and all the dungeons become one blur where we only remember wall to wall pulls.

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Originally Posted by LalafellDown

If you go through each dungeon that we have you’ll see that the devs provided us with its own individual gimmicks. Puzzles, traps, exploration, elevators. After experiencing each one multiple times of course they get stale. We tend to forget and all the dungeons become one blur where we only remember wall to wall pulls.

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I'm sorry but I have to disagree, if you look at the maps for each of the dungeons you'll see that each one just goes in a straight line. That's my problem if you look at like Toto rak's map it was huge and winding and having to explore for the proto cells at least to me was fun. We don't get anything like that in any of the EW dungeons nor did we get anything like that in ShB

The problem is designs like that cause problems down the line.

You get the veteran who has done the puzzle/multi-path dungeon thousands of times and doesn't want to spend time exploring or solving puzzles.

You get the player who has done it a few times so the new hasn't quite worn off yet.

You get the player who is new to the dungeon and wants to explore and take their time with the puzzles.


The player in the middle will be just fine with either of the other players. But you get that veteran and that new player in the same group and then there's an issue.

That's why dungeons have shifted to just be long hallways without puzzles. Because it reduces the points of conflict within party groups.

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Originally Posted by Seera1024

The player in the middle will be just fine with either of the other players. But you get that veteran and that new player in the same group and then there's an issue..

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This is me in a nutshell, I don't mind either way to be honest, it's just at this point all the dungeons feel the same, and that has led me to get really really bored with them. The only thing that really changes is the theme and that's all. However I completely see where you are coming from though.

The boring part comes from the dungeons being just one path with no surprises, at all. Not by not having enough mobs. There is no thinking involved. Fun in a game is measured by decisions per second. The less decisions you have to make, the less fun a game is. Going in auto pilot is not fun. Neither is dying (as the decision to stop is being made for you).

The whole wall to wall is not about being fun (as you are being mechanical when doing it). Is about taking less time when you can pull it off at the expense of more time wasted, more blame and more drama when you can't.

Please the steamrollers only doing it for the tomes, and you get linear, and incredibly boring dungeons. Please the newcomers and you get interesting dungeons that become a chore after the first few runs.

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Originally Posted by rxantos

The boring part comes from the dungeons being just one path with no surprises, at all. Not by not having enough mobs. There is no thinking involved. Fun in a game is measured by decisions per second. The less decisions you have to make, the less fun a game is. Going in auto pilot is not fun. Neither is dying (as the decision to stop is being made for you).

The whole wall to wall is not about being fun (as you are being mechanical when doing it). Is about taking less time when you can pull it off at the expense of more time wasted, more blame and more drama when you can't.

Please the steamrollers only doing it for the tomes, and you get linear, and incredibly boring dungeons. Please the newcomers and you get interesting dungeons that become a chore after the first few runs.

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Sadly this is the monkey's paw of the problem, and in the end it feels like neither party can be properly satisfied which is deeply saddening. It just feels like they are catering more to the steamrollers that only care about going back to idling in whatever town they happen to plant themselves in. I understand time is a precious resource and one we have so little of but I feel if things keep going the way they are Final Fantasy XIV doesn't have much of a future. The magic will eventually wear off and people will get sick of doing the same recycled content time after time. I just ran through the new dungeon in 6.1 and found myself saying "Yup here we go another long hallway." the distance between the packs was staggering, and in the end outside of the bosses I was bored.

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Originally Posted by Seera1024

The problem is designs like that cause problems down the line.

You get the veteran who has done the puzzle/multi-path dungeon thousands of times and doesn't want to spend time exploring or solving puzzles.

You get the player who has done it a few times so the new hasn't quite worn off yet.

You get the player who is new to the dungeon and wants to explore and take their time with the puzzles.


The player in the middle will be just fine with either of the other players. But you get that veteran and that new player in the same group and then there's an issue.

That's why dungeons have shifted to just be long hallways without puzzles. Because it reduces the points of conflict within party groups.

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THIS.
I've said this in many threads multiple times. When you get matched with people who want different things (one is just after the tomestone, and the other is the new guy who wants to explore every nook and cranny), problems arise, especially if they're outspoken, or worse, just leave the new player on his/her own. The others know which way is the progress, so they follow the "impatient" guy. So the new guy follows, not knowing what's on the other parts of the dungeons.

When the trust system is introduced for an earlier dungeon, I'm actually quite sad to hear it. Because this is actually the reason, not because "DPS takes forever to queue". That's one reason, but not enough to justify them creating an AI revolving around the dungeons. Trust on SHB and EW is funny because they have the dialogues, but when you have "Spirited Marauder" as your friend, I'd assume things aren't going to be as interesting

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Originally Posted by rxantos

The boring part comes from the dungeons being just one path with no surprises, at all. Not by not having enough mobs. There is no thinking involved. Fun in a game is measured by decisions per second. The less decisions you have to make, the less fun a game is. Going in auto pilot is not fun. Neither is dying (as the decision to stop is being made for you).

The whole wall to wall is not about being fun (as you are being mechanical when doing it). Is about taking less time when you can pull it off at the expense of more time wasted, more blame and more drama when you can't.

Please the steamrollers only doing it for the tomes, and you get linear, and incredibly boring dungeons. Please the newcomers and you get interesting dungeons that become a chore after the first few runs.

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This is not true. Doing big massive pulls and nuking them down with big blaps and aoe kapows is fun af. Learning how to play the game well and doing things in a pacey way is fun. The classes are designed around this.

You're not going to get around that. A lot of people enjoy playing their job and doing so effectively. A lot of people like playing the actual game, and despite efforts to characterize faffing about as 'playing the game' the truth is, the people who are burning stuff down fast ARE actively playing the game and doing so more actively than the one who is not. They're making more 'decisions per second.'

And the existence of multiple walls that stop pulls shows they're NOT catering to W2W players. If they were, there'd be no walls at all, it'd be a mad rush to the boss room, no heals, no one doing anything, then the tank dies, and the healer raises the tank. Trash is is a palette cleanser, but it very easily overstays its welcome, and the faster you can kill trash, the less it overstays its welcome. People want to crush bosses in dungeons, so they're the star of the show.

At this point the gradual dumbing down of the game has got to be by far my biggest problem with it. I felt Shadowbringers was already very easy but it was at a level I was okay with, but now everything in Endwalker feels even easier still and I just can't see the sense in it.

Like they've already gone past the point of being able to let anyone through, all story mode content can be cleared with multiple players dead the whole time, so the continuous easing of content completely lacks any meaning. It's not even assisting anyone anymore, it's just actively removing stimulating gameplay. Who is still struggling? Who still can't clear story mode? I want to know what kind of player they think is playing this game because I don't understand.

If the game had always been like this it would be one thing, but there has been a clear and consistent reduction of challenge in virtually all areas of the game for 3 expansions straight now, and it's just not fair to the players who are already here and are comfortable with the way things are. Can we at least know where they eventually plan to bottom out?

I used to have fun running dungeons but now when I sign up for them I realize I'm only there for the rewards and I'd rather not run the content at all because it's just so mind-numbing. Mechanics barely tickle even if you fail them, there are no dps/tank/heal checks ever, every sharp edge has been sanded completely smooth, safe, and non-threatening. But games you can't lose aren't fun.

It's not just dungeons either. All normal mode content has suffered this fate. The new Alliance Raid is the easiest they've put out in a long time, which will become obvious next week once people start doing reclears.

Being told "do Extreme/Savage/Ultimate if you want engaging gameplay" is upsetting for one because it didn't use to be that way and secondly because the majority of content in the game is normal mode. It's really not okay for most of the game to be dull on the argument that it's just disposable backdrops meant to funnel players through the story, when players are expected to run that content daily. Maybe I just wanna run some dungeons, why does that have to mean I can't have any fun?

I still love the game in so many other ways but it's getting harder to put up with the day to day gameplay especially when it feels like it's only getting worse over time.

Time to do some ressing, not a hot button topic like ultimates check points or the Grey goo scenario of accessibility but this Demands more attention.

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Originally Posted by Seera1024

The problem is designs like that cause problems down the line.

You get the veteran who has done the puzzle/multi-path dungeon thousands of times and doesn't want to spend time exploring or solving puzzles.

You get the player who has done it a few times so the new hasn't quite worn off yet.

You get the player who is new to the dungeon and wants to explore and take their time with the puzzles.


The player in the middle will be just fine with either of the other players. But you get that veteran and that new player in the same group and then there's an issue.

That's why dungeons have shifted to just be long hallways without puzzles. Because it reduces the points of conflict within party groups.

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Let's put it this way, then.

Most players...

• Want a relatively streamlined dungeon experience.
• Minimal one-and-done learning requirements in regard, at least, to basics like dungeon pathing.
• Nonetheless want a varied dungeon experience.
• Want more than just what is obviously hallways of stagnant multi-pull, gate, multi-pull, gate, boss, repeat.

There are a few opportunities that trims, but not that many.

One-time puzzles are a no-go. Randomized puzzles without a single solution method/procedure (to be learned once and simply applied to the change in context), though, can still work.

Multi-path dungeons in which one is most likely to be the best is a no-go because it's a one-time solve. Multi-path dungeons in which the best path is highly contextual is a no-go because it takes additional time to communicate when people would rather just be silently sprinting, AoEing, or STing. But, randomized multi-path dungeons, such that slight variance is forced upon the player? Still a possibility.

Elaborate trash with a mechanic never to be seen again? Likely to be declined on the basis that it's a one-time learning gap (and not in the way we're accustomed to / forgiving of). Elaborate trash that builds off of and builds towards future dungeon trash mechanics? Sure. Why not?

I definitely would appreciate more dungeons with side mechanics that you have to be aware of to make it more interesting like in the Qitana Ravel rather than just pull mobs pull mobs stop kill next.