Post Sundering Tech Level

After the sundering no one had any memories. Did they just start out as cavemen having to rediscover fire and all that?

The First seemed to have the same level of technology as most of Eorzea. But time worked differently there except when it didn't. And they were a post apocalyptic fantasy setting so it is possible they lost a lot of tech.

If Hydaelyn could specifically decide what people remembered and what they forgot, then her power is way way way way stronger and precise than we give her credit for. At which point why even sunder people? Why not just reprogram their memories with what you want?

This is why I think that post sundering, everyone was for all intents and purposes, a caveman. Hydaelyn then could have taught them via visions and what not the level of tech she believed they were worthy of having and cement her position as a goddess and explain why everyone knows about her and worships her.

given ancient tech survived at least to the first calamity im guessing they werent cavemen. though they did regress a lot due to time.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

After the sundering no one had any memories. Did they just start out as cavemen having to rediscover fire and all that?

The First seemed to have the same level of technology as most of Eorzea. But time worked differently there except when it didn't. And they were a post apocalyptic fantasy setting so it is possible they lost a lot of tech.

If Hydaelyn could specifically decide what people remembered and what they forgot, then her power is way way way way stronger and precise than we give her credit for. At which point why even sunder people? Why not just reprogram their memories with what you want?

This is why I think that post sundering, everyone was for all intents and purposes, a caveman. Hydaelyn then could have taught them via visions and what not the level of tech she believed they were worthy of having and cement her position as a goddess and explain why everyone knows about her and worships her.

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Well we did learn about the whole thing from actual paintings on a cave wall done just after the Sundering.

While we don't know much of anything of the First Umbral Era, according to the Encyclopedia Eorzea, the First Astral Era was marked by the invention of stone tools and the migration to farming and agriculture over hunting and gathering so it seems that the Post-Sundering world was indeed cavemen.

One thing though on your last sentence, almost no one in the world knows Hydaelyn as a "goddess" actually exists, let alone worships her. Eorzea worships the Twelve to varying degrees, and Hydaelyn has no role in that. The only people who seem to know she exists are Ascians, Echo bearers, some people in Sharlayan, Midgardsormr, and those who those groups have told.

I doubt that 'technology' in the conventional sense would have existed to begin with in a society of gods. Necessity is the mother of invention, and if you ever actually wanted for anything, you'd simply will it into existence using Creation magic. That's likely also why the Garleans are the most technologically advanced people that we know of, simply because they had to supplement a relative inability to use magic with actual technological know-how in order to survive.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I doubt that 'technology' in the conventional sense would have existed to begin with in a society of gods. Necessity is the mother of invention, and if you ever actually wanted for anything, you'd simply will it into existence using Creation magic. That's likely also why the Garleans are the most technologically advanced people that we know of, simply because they had to supplement a relative inability to use magic with actual technological know-how in order to survive.

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Actually, the Ancients did seem to have quite a bit of technology in use, showing that not everything was simply conjured into being with Creation magic - aetherytes for instance was an Ancient pre-Sundering invention, and there also seemed to be some kind of computational devices in use (the Watcher's Palace on the Moon for instance has something called 'The Pillar of Industry' that is essentially for all intents and purposes a vending machine, the same place also has mechanical clocks in use (they have pendulems and timing regulation weights so they clearly have mechanical movements inside).

To say nothing of the loporrits using what are clearly computers with 3D holographic displays (and to writ, they also could use Creation Magic), and that the Moon itself has an engine, (remember, the Moon was also created by an Ancient (Venat). And the Ancients' lighting is actually electric (a broken light fitting shown in the Akademia Aynder for instance is shown sparking and flickering exactly like a broken electric light), so their knowledge was clearly highly advanced and not merely a reflection of their powers over Creation magic. Creation magic (and magic in general) went hand in hand with technology, the later does fit in with the 'Roaring 20's/Art-Deco' feel Amaurot had.

We also know they had elevators that at least their operating systems could tell who was wanting to use them. As the one in fake Amaurot greeted us. Then there's the teleport pads in Elpis which only allow those who have permission to use them. Yes, they then get coded to allow us to freely use them after the fist time. Yet we still had to use it in the presence of Hythlodaeus during those initial uses.

Aetherytes are large aetheric constructs. The fact that they've stuck around in both societies would seem to suggest that elements of their magical know-how were preserved into post-sundering society, at least for a time.

There are plenty of things that you can achieve with magic in place of technology, though. We know for a fact that they used aether to directly fabricate clothing using Creation magic, for example. What need is there to invent a loom in such a society? That's something that would need to be developed from scratch. Likewise, just because you have the knowledge to make an aetherically driven vending machine or an aetherically powered light source doesn't necessarily mean that you'd have the silicon manufacturing or metallurgical tools needed to build one by conventional means.

As for the moon and the Loporrits, it's hard to say how much engineering knowledge the smol rabbits had to develop for themselves over the past 12 000 years. We know that the Amaurotians themselves hadn't developed spaceflight, with the Convocation having limited knowledge of the celestial prior to Hermes being appointed to Fandaniel's post and Meteion being their very first foray at space exploration. It sounds funny when you think about it, but the Loporrits are actually more technologically advanced than the Amaurotians in this regard, simply because they were specifically tasked with a mission to develop spaceflight.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Actually, the Ancients did seem to have quite a bit of technology in use, showing that not everything was simply conjured into being with Creation magic - aetherytes for instance was an Ancient pre-Sundering invention, and there also seemed to be some kind of computational devices in use (the Watcher's Palace on the Moon for instance has something called 'The Pillar of Industry' that is essentially for all intents and purposes a vending machine, the same place also has mechanical clocks in use (they have pendulems and timing regulation weights so they clearly have mechanical movements inside).

To say nothing of the loporrits using what are clearly computers with 3D holographic displays (and to writ, they also could use Creation Magic), and that the Moon itself has an engine, (remember, the Moon was also created by an Ancient (Venat). And the Ancients' lighting is actually electric (a broken light fitting shown in the Akademia Aynder for instance is shown sparking and flickering exactly like a broken electric light), so their knowledge was clearly highly advanced and not merely a reflection of their powers over Creation magic. Creation magic (and magic in general) went hand in hand with technology, the later does fit in with the 'Roaring 20's/Art-Deco' feel Amaurot had.

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The only thing I will interject here is the Loporrits have had thousands of years to advance their technology, and even attest to this themselves. I don't know how much Venat actually had a role in the moon's construction opposed to just ordering the Loporrits to build it.

That is very minor though and our time in Elpis definitely shows the Ancient's technological knowledge is far beyond primitive. I would also say that the Loporitt's affinity for technology is more learned than inherited, and someone had to show them.

For OP, the rate at which time flows isn't much different on the first than it is on the source. What's different is the passage of time on the source and its reflections. What I mean by this is if you travel the dimensional rift from the source to the first, you will age on the first as you would normally on the source. However, you could spend months and even years on the first, return to the source, and find that only days or even hours have passed by.

This is actually one of my issues with this kind of travel within FFXIV. There is no point to add these kind of caveats to travel if they cannot remain consistent. We can now travel to and fro the source and first without consequence other than what the Scions initially feel upon our arrival to the Crystarium.

We don't need to differentiate magical knowledge and scientific knowledge. The sundering also wiped out all their pre-existing knowledge of magic. And that had to be relearned right along with how to make the wheel.

But it seems the sundering people started at rank 0 in knowledge of magic and science. And probably a whole bunch of other things. Now THAT would be a heck of a time travel expansion. Caveman elezen. Pygmy/cannibal tribe lalafel.

Google tells me that cavemen existed in our world 2 million years ago roughly. So there HAD to be some intervention from Hydaelyn to teach them enough to advance to where we are now in only 12k years.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

Google tells me that cavemen existed in our world 2 million years ago roughly. So there HAD to be some intervention from Hydaelyn to teach them enough to advance to where we are now in only 12k years.

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Considering the Ascians were responsible for both the Allagan and Garlean empires, I think Ascians are more likely.

We actually don't know what knowledge people retained after the sundering. We do know that Amaurotians had various forms of record keeping that persisted even to the current era, so it's not like their accumulated knowledge suddenly disappeared overnight. It's just a question of how much of it would be practical and relevant for survival following the reduction in their magical abilities. You might have compiled the world's most advanced treatise on aquatic lifeforms, but what you're going to pass on to your children is the practical skillset required for survival, like how to cook food and find shelter using non-magical means. The more esoteric and less survival orientated parts of their knowledge would have faded from conscious memory over generations until it became actually relevant for society to learn them again.

That's a very good point because there is some clues already in the storyline that explains this: before the Sundering the Ancients appeared to actually still have a preference for hand-cooked meals rather than simply using Creation magic to conjure food into existence, which explains why they continued to have agriculture like rearing cattle and harvesting fruit and vegetables (it appears heavy labour in these instances was probably delegated to specialist familiars rather than the Ancients themselves getting their hands dirty, their jobs seemed to be more in the 'intellectual'/creative/white-collar industries pretty much exclusively).

Even things like making tea were still done by hand (given Venat's comment during the meeting scene in Poitken Oikos that "there was plenty of hot water available" for it), and a favourite pasttime seemed to be grabbing fruit like apples from trees, so they clearly did know how to forage and make food for themselves "the primitive way" (a headcanon I have is that ready-made food like meals conjured into existence wholesale by Creation Magic is rather... bland and unappatizing, rather like as if it was made by a robot, because after all subtle differences in say cooking temperature or even the type of utensils use can wildly alter the taste and texture of a meal from one day to the next, or even the skill of the cook, and as a people who prided creativity over all else, no wonder they had this preference. ;)).

The main difference though is they had no biological necessity for eating other than "if they don't eat they weaken and eventually fall unconscious", but their survival did not depend on it (presumedly this was due to aether absorption - as they had enormous, almost infinite, wellsprings of aether in their bodies, it was probably enough to sustain them without requiring regular absorption from food like the Sundered races do.

But I'm rambling again like Hythlodaeus so I'll stop now. :P

EDIT: another thing I remembered is that there was a section of Elpis dedicated to crossbreeding existing plant and animal species to create new species or with new traits via natural selection/forced evolution rather than Creation Magic (the Cthonic Horns), but they were regarded by mainstream Elpis researchers with mild amusement/indifference at best, or as outright pariahs at worst, but it still shows that the Ancients themselves were not ignorant of doing things in a more 'primitive' way (one of the things they were attempting was creating new fruit varieties with different tastes and textures by grafting and hybridization, with unpredictable results).

If all our electrical power sources suddenly and permanently went out and across the planet, our technology would significantly change, at least for the immediate future. Some areas of knowledge, like knowing how to build an electrical circuit or conventional computer, would be rendered useless because you'd simply have no way to power them. Your priorities would change as well. And when you think about it, how many people actually have basic survival knowledge for those 'desert island' type scenarios where modern conveniences are suddenly removed?

I'd thinnk it was a more gradualised decline hoenstly..

If you will, you could think it no different from what you'd see during a zombie apocolypse. at first tech would still work and still be functional and they'd still be electricity and all that cool stuff but over time it'd crumble and fail as no one alive knows how to properly maintain it or keep it running. the knowledge gradually gets lost.

the fact that post sundering humans were a fraction of what they were one might say that it would become easy for all the knowledge to be fragmented and lost.

It reasonably has to be a gradual decline, actually. Consider: we know from Anamnesis Anyder that not only did some concept crystals survive, but that sundered people could use them. Those things aren't around on the Source anymore, so they ran out at some point.

...and actually. Knowing that they would've had access to concept crystals (and knowing what kinda stuff was in them) gives some interesting context to the fact the First Astral Era was remembered as an 'age of gods'. Maybe those gods weren't the Ascians; maybe it was the creations they still had access to.

The Age of the Gods was before the First Astral Era though (the First Calamity specifically brought an end to it), so whether that was the same as the immediate 'post-Sundering' time or not, or was a period of time after that again, is unclear. It's all very murky.

Bearing in mind that most technological advances in-game are generally the result of prior civilizations' discoveries over several thousand years or more...but also regularly occurring cataclysmic events. Meh, I dunno. There was definitely a bit of retention, but there was also a lot of time.

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Originally Posted by Bad_Luck

Bearing in mind that most technological advances in-game are generally the result of prior civilizations' discoveries over several thousand years or more...but also regularly occurring cataclysmic events. Meh, I dunno. There was definitely a bit of retention, but there was also a lot of time.

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You could expand on this. post sundering the human life span was reduced greatly.. so that would play a big part in the retention of knowledge... how do you pass down a thousand years of knowledge onto someone whos only going to live 100 years and still leave them time to teach the next person and so on...

time would indeed become a major factor.

there's also bee nvarious plot points where a lot of that information has been retained or preserved but what is lost is the knowledge or means to access it.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

You could expand on this. post sundering the human life span was reduced greatly.. so that would play a big part in the retention of knowledge... how do you pass down a thousand years of knowledge onto someone whos only going to live 100 years and still leave them time to teach the next person and so on...

time would indeed become a major factor.

there's also bee nvarious plot points where a lot of that information has been retained or preserved but what is lost is the knowledge or means to access it.

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Now I really hope their memories were completely wiped. That would be a horrific experience if you actually remembered what it was before. Imagine going from living thousands of years to just 100? The shock of that would knock tons of people into depression and just giving up.

The typical approach to pass down a thousand years' worth of knowledge down to someone who is only going to live one hundred years is using books.

Also, people can't actually know what it's like to live for a hundred years until they actually get there.

It was a complete societal collapse. Language, skills, technology, medicine, academia, arts, etcetera just like totally gone and they don't even remember the name of the civilization 50 years later with only the elderly remembering it from their childhood. Rome is like a really well known example but they're actually everywhere and it's kind of spooky. It doesn't take very long for it to happen either

Technology: it was obviously largely based on functioning with, fabricated by, and maintained through creation magic and nothing else. The loss of creation magic just made it become Roman Concrete, flying statues, and Greek Fire etc. Everything would collapse from there. It would be like losing the knowledge to fix the electrical systems or running water that we totally depend on. You don't know how the things you tale for granted work. Like, "How do magnets work". Totes distressing how many ppl just don't understand basic science. The thing that Hydalyn did was force that kind of collapse to happen to remake magic with dynamis in mind, while the Ascians accelerated technological and magical studies growth past what society could have done alone for nefarious reasons. An, that created more collapses with tons of super dangerous result that we like happen to just come across at the right time (all raids, Shinryu, ascian ruins, elder primals)

I'm hoping that the alliance raids shed some light on the so-called "age of the gods" that the Twelve were believed to have actually existed within.

Though at this point it wouldn't surprise me if they were creations akin to the Watcher who were specifically designed to help shepherd mankind through that initial rocky post-sundering period.

Well, we do know that the 'old gods' appeared to the people of Thavnair to comfort them and teach them how to deal with adversity:

'Know this, my children. There is more ugliness than beauty in this world.
To live is to suffer. To drink of calamity and drown in anguish. To toil and be tested, always and ever.
'Tis a perilous path you walk. Death lurks in the dark, and is the sole promise that awaits at journey's end.
You will tremble with terror. You will weep tears of anger and despair...
...But do not avert your eyes. See your life for what it is.
Then will you see how the hardships make you strong.
Every doubt reforged as scales for your armor.
Every agony to temper your blade.'

We also know from Radz-at-Han's "Tales of of the Braves' that twelve heroes rose up with legendary weapons to fight against the darkness.

'In an era long since ended
When chaos reigned o'er all the land
Did valiant souls take up the fight
To bring forth Light and cast out Dark
They numbered Twelve, no more nor less.'

Ivon Coeurlfist, who wields the Sphairai, for example, travelled up to Gyr Abania, and both the hero and the place have strong ties to Rhalgr (with his mark sitting in Little Ala Mhigo). Rhalgr's influence in the area seems to date back to the Sixth Umbral Calamity Flood period, after the Ala Mhigans escaped the waters under his star's guidance into the highlands, and the order of the Fist of Rhalgr was founded soon afterwards. Likewise, both Saint Reinette, the Dragoon who wielded the original Gae Bolg, and Halone (whose symbol is three spears) are revered in Ishgard. We have names and details on 10 out of the 12 braves. Now that we're finally in Jalzahn's homeland from whence all that Thavnarian Mist and Radz-al-han Quenching Oil came from, wouldn't it be the perfect time to find out more? I wouldn't be surprised if there was a link between the twelve Braves and the Twelve.

Sharlayan has its own band of twelve heroes - the original Archons lead by Nyunkrepf who saved countless people set adrift during Sixth Umbral Calamity Flood and subsequently built the city that we know today. The 1.x quest Of Archons and Muses speculated that they were actually incarnations of the Twelve. This group later formed the inspiration of Louisoix's Circle of Knowing as well. And given that this is also a Sharlayan expansion, well, it would probably make sense to find out the history about them, too. I wouldn't be surprised if every time a Calamity struck due to a Rejoining, a group of twelve heroes showed up to save the day and minimize the destruction wrought, and they were eventually deified (perhaps in the post Flood period) as a result.

One thing that makes this all slightly confusing is that the 'Twelve' are technically thirteen, with Nald'Thal being a single manifestation of the twins Nald and Thal. Either way, it'll be interesting to find out who these mysterious figures are, I'm sure.

Just hope they don't turn out to be robots trying to protect us from a greater threat to come.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

Just hope they don't turn out to be robots trying to protect us from a greater threat to come.

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WoL gets a text from Lavos on their tomestone, callin it now

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

WoL gets a text from Lavos on their tomestone, callin it now

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I guess they don't want Chronopolis (sp?) Or the care giver robots from Horizon Zero Dawn.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

I guess they don't want Chronopolis (sp?) Or the care giver robots from Horizon Zero Dawn.

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Horizon spoiler

Ted Faro ruining another world would be something special for sure.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Horizon spoiler

Ted Faro ruining another world would be something special for sure.

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Gods I hope not. Haven't played the 2nd game but if that character ends up having a punchable robot version somewhere that would be very cathartic.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

Just hope they don't turn out to be robots trying to protect us from a greater threat to come.

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I think that was last expansion's alliance raids.