Pronoun used in lvl 87 MSQ 'Thou Must Live, Die, and Know' cutscene

‘No more shall man have wings to bear him to paradise. Henceforth, he shall walk.’ -Venat

The cutscene in this msq is my fav in 6.0 but the English localization here is disappointing, as man/he/him is used to refer to all human beings. In the Japanese version, the word 人（Hito）is used and this word simply means human and is way more neutral.

I suppose the English localization team chose to use this kind of wording to make the quote here more epic or have a religious feeling, but while watching this cutscene I just felt uncomfortable and inappropriate as I and my WoL are no man and I never use the pronoun he/him to refer to myself or my WoL. It feels even worse that this quote is from Venat, who is such a wise and empathetic woman.

Technically its correct. (as odd as it is)
He/Him/Man in old english is gender neutral. They did not mean "male" but they became synonymous with "male" because why say "he/him/man" if "she/her/woman" only refers to a female? they must be talking about a male, right? And thats why its current use means "male" instead of its original meaning.

Now, I also agree it feels weird, since most ppl are going to see that line as odd, and agree it was a poor choice. especially since the rest of the writing clearly doesnt illustrate this.

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Originally Posted by Erin_Nekoyanagi

‘No more shall man have wings to bear him to paradise. Henceforth, he shall walk.’ -Venat

The cutscene in this msq is my fav in 6.0 but the English localization here is disappointing, as man/he/him is used to refer to all human beings. In the Japanese version, the word 人（Hito）is used and this word simply means human and is way more neutral.

I suppose the English localization team chose to use this kind of wording to make the quote here more epic or have a religious feeling, but while watching this cutscene I just felt uncomfortable and inappropriate as I and my WoL are no man and I never use the pronoun he/him to refer to myself or my WoL. It feels even worse that this quote is from Venat, who is such a wise and empathetic woman.

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People like you are the problem with this world.

Fun fact - In my native language, Venat would use she/her instead of he/him :P

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Originally Posted by Erin_Nekoyanagi

I and my WoL are no man and I never use the pronoun he/him to refer to myself or my WoL.

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And Venat is not applying that pronoun to your individual WoL.

Generic "man" meaning humanity as a whole is not you, even if you are counted within it.

"Man" is short for Human and is not specifically for the male humans.
It is technically the neutral short form of us players (and I guess the ancients?).

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Originally Posted by Canadane

"Man" is short for Human and is not specifically for the male humans.
It is technically the neutral short form of us players (and I guess the ancients?).

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Interestingly since the beginning the current Spoken races were always being addressed as the "sons/daughters of Man", so, I guess we now know why...

But yes, "man" in this case is short for human (as in "mankind") and is gender neutral. Really, I think this thread's original intention is making an unnecessary mountain out of a tiny molehill where there are far more important things to worry about.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

Technically its correct. (as odd as it is)
He/Him/Man in old english is gender neutral. They did not mean "male" but they became synonymous with "male" because why say "he/him/man" if "she/her/woman" only refers to a female? they must be talking about a male, right? And thats why its current use means "male" instead of its original meaning.

Now, I also agree it feels weird, since most ppl are going to see that line as odd, and agree it was a poor choice. especially since the rest of the writing clearly doesnt illustrate this.

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yea I understand they are trying to make the quote have an old English feeling, as the sentence also mentions things like 'paradise' and 'wings', but it's still kind of meh to me.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

And Venat is not applying that pronoun to your individual WoL.

Generic "man" meaning humanity as a whole is not you, even if you are counted within it.

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I don't feel my WoL included with that pronoun and that's why I don't think it's appropriate.

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Originally Posted by Erin_Nekoyanagi

I don't feel my WoL included with that pronoun and that's why I don't think it's appropriate.

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Well you're going to just have to grow up and get over it because Venat was using that term in a neutral way. Or should we stop using the word humanity and mankind as well?

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Originally Posted by Erin_Nekoyanagi

I don't feel my WoL included with that pronoun and that's why I don't think it's appropriate.

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Though Azem's pronouns in the time of the World Unsundered match your character's pronouns, your WoL as they are in the present did not exist at the time of the sundering, and Venat did not sunder your WoL. There are many cases where this and other games would benefit from inclusive language; this might not be one of them.

When we discuss archaic texts that overgeneralize humanity to "man", we can acknowledge that those times were not conscious to a need for inclusive language, but we wouldn't change the quote to use a more inclusive term if the context was, "The original speaker said....." Venat is represented here at the time she, an Ancient, said a thing, and the language of the Ancients overgeneralized humanity to "man".

An argument could maybe be made that the Echo's alltongue power would translate "man" in your WoL's head to a gender neutral term as your WoL would understand it; but then we have to determine what exactly the extent of the WoL's experiences during the return trip through the time rift was. Which is to say, such an argument might be overthinking the matter.

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Originally Posted by Erin_Nekoyanagi

I don't feel my WoL included with that pronoun and that's why I don't think it's appropriate.

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Then you simply have to get used to the fact that "man" means mankind or humanity in this context and, especially in older texts (as this game's script emulates) will use male pronouns despite referring to all people of all genders.

It is far simpler to accept that it does include you (and no malice is intended) than to kick up a fuss over every incident of it, because there are a lot of them.

actually I'm okay with the word man at some point, but when it's used as a set with he/him this is uncomfortable because we do have the pronoun to include everyone which is 'they/them'.
yes man can be the short for human but man-he-him for all humankind? that's odd and old fashioned.

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Originally Posted by Erin_Nekoyanagi

yes man can be the short for human but man-he-him for all humankind? that's odd and old fashioned.

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Yes, it is old-fashioned. This game's script uses old-fashioned language all the time.

When "man" is the noun used, "he" is the matching pronoun. If you wanted to use something with a "they" pronoun, you would need to reword more of the sentence and, I think, make it less eloquent in the process.

I love these forums so much, unlike other MMOs the bait threads in here are top tier. The world may be burning but I can take comfort in knowing that FF14 has no shortage of the most ridiculous first world problems complaints ever conceived in gaming. I can always partake in a hearty chuckle from you clowns.

Never change 14, never change...

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Originally Posted by Erin_Nekoyanagi

actually I'm okay with the word man at some point, but when it's used as a set with he/him this is uncomfortable because we do have the pronoun to include everyone which is 'they/them'.
yes man can be the short for human but man-he-him for all humankind? that's odd and old fashioned.

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Have you had the game on mute? Its supposed to be old fashioned. The dub is intentionally done in old english style.

It's not feasible, despite society's insistence, to feel included everywhere, at all times. Sometimes you won't feel included. Oh, well.

I dunno what else to say. That is life. Trying to carve out a niche into which you fit, in any random situation, sometimes doesn't make sense.

Exempli gratia, trying to shoe-horn 2020-esque "inclusive pronouns" into speech styles best classified as Victorian - if we absolutely must draw a real-world parallel.

In the 1890s, folks used non-inclusive pronouns all day, every day. Therefore, a modern writer trying to emulate Victorian speech won't use "humankind," they'll use "mankind," or "man."

As others have sad, Man has been used to refer to humans for a long time. There isnt really a way to express it in another way without altering the meaning. You could say change man to human, But in the context of ffxiv there are no "humans" you cant use races as at this point there was only one. And even if you did alter that specific point, changing he to they would foster the same issue you have called out. In essence its not specific to gender. Its colloquial depiction that has been used in context.

It arises from that strange thing in language where a word can come to mean mulitple things (Light being an example) in the case of "man" it does mean male human but it also means a human being of either sex; a person.

I do understand why you feel its off, but i dont think theres an easy alternative. Ultimately, the dialogue flows really well here because of the context in what Venat is saying. Changing some words would mean the same thing, but also make it a little clunky. Ultimately it comes down to historic use of the word.

I get what you are getting at and I'm generally all for singular they/them. That said, I feel like for something as dramatic and "poetic" as that line, singular they/them would feel awkward. I'm okay with "he" being used here. Hell, I'd be okay if it were "she". Singular "they" feels more casual and not quite right for the scene.

Koji is behind all of this. He pretty much butcher the English version of this game. It's pretty sad considering how much better this game could've been if he wasn't around.

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Originally Posted by BozoBlanco

Koji is behind all of this. He pretty much butcher the English version of this game. It's pretty sad considering how much better this game could've been if he wasn't around.

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This is complete nonsense - Michael Christopher Koji Fox hasn't been head of localization for the game since.. around ShB's release (as he was seconded to the FFXVI team), as I understand it he was replaced as head of localization by John Crow initially, and now EW's localization was handled instead by a woman named Kathryn Cwynar. Koji-Fox still has some connection with the game though, specifically the soundtrack, assisting Masayoshi Soken with song writing and even singing himself on some tracks, but the localization of the game is no longer his department.

And before you pass judgement, he's been a part of the team since 1.0, and many of the game's lore aspects shared with the Japanese version was his work (famously, Nald'thal being an example).

grow the hell up

Today you learned that "man" refers to the entire human race. Not sure why you had to learn that on a forum...

titan(wo)man?