What is Vashaun?

Is he just the most advanced mammet we've seen? Or are they really a small Au Ra child that gets possessed by Vrta when he shoves his eye in them? If the former then does Vrta have older versions made? Since when we went to visit the Raidient Hosts at the tower the one in charge asks about his predecessor in that it's only been a few years since they "left".

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Is he just the most advanced mammet we've seen? Or are they really a small Au Ra child that gets possessed by Vrta when he shoves his eye in them? If the former then does Vrta have older versions made? Since when we went to visit the Raidient Hosts at the tower the one in charge asks about his predecessor in that it's only been a few years since they "left".

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Pretty sure he’s an artificial being made by Thavnairian alchemists, and doesn’t possess or soul or will outside of when he’s possessed of Vrtras eye. This part is speculative but it’s likely that he had older versions made in the past which would be replaced over time, as it would have been odd to have a messenger for the satrap who never ages or changes at all. The retiring of previous dolls will likely end now that the truth is out.

He does seem to have a different personality. Unless Vrta is the first roleplayer in where he chose to give his more movable incognito til 6.0 self a different personality to help sell the lie? Were the others also named the same or do you think he came up with a list of names? Or maybe named some after past Satraps in honor of their service, but only after anyone who would remember said person was long forgotten? Kind of like how in the world of Valdimar Herlads have an option to be reborn as a companion, but only after no one would remember who they were.

I think Varshan's more of a clone than anything else. Or at least, an artificially-grown but biological form; 'clone' implies there to be a previous person he's based on, and there's no evidence of that.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I think Varshan's more of a clone than anything else. Or at least, an artificially-grown but biological form; 'clone' implies there to be a previous person he's based on, and there's no evidence of that.

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I think the term they use is simulacrum, which is vague enough to be a million different things lol.

Given it’s made by alchemists, specifically, a “hommunculus” is probably also an accurate term for him. Dunno if he has any mechanical parts to him. But it’s not a real boy getting possessed, at any rate. I got the impression that it’s literally a meat suit, with no life force of its own.

hes vrtras boysona

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Originally Posted by Lihtleita

hes vrtras boysona

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Thanks I hate it.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

Given it’s made by alchemists, specifically, a “hommunculus” is probably also an accurate term for him. Dunno if he has any mechanical parts to him. But it’s not a real boy getting possessed, at any rate. I got the impression that it’s literally a meat suit, with no life force of its own.

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Yeah this seems to be accurate. When I first learned that he was what he was I went wait he's an android!? I do wonder if we'll see more like him since he's the most advanced artificial being we've come across post sundering. I do wonder if it just stares off in the distance the few times they and Vrta are in the same room/area since we don't see him take the eye back the few times we see this.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Yeah this seems to be accurate. When I first learned that he was what he was I went wait he's an android!? I do wonder if we'll see more like him since he's the most advanced artificial being we've come across post sundering. I do wonder if it just stares off in the distance the few times they and Vrta are in the same room/area since we don't see him take the eye back the few times we see this.

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I mean, if he's an artificially-grown biological body, which appears to be what he is (there was the implication that Varshan's 'big brother' got older and 'moved away', so it seems like they age), then that's basically Allagan cloning techniques by a different route.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I mean, if he's an artificially-grown biological body, which appears to be what he is (there was the implication that Varshan's 'big brother' got older and 'moved away', so it seems like they age), then that's basically Allagan cloning techniques by a different route.

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I think the implication was they were put out to pasture so to speak.

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Originally Posted by Cerbolt

I think the implication was they were put out to pasture so to speak.

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Oh, yeah, this is absolutely what happened. But given the cover story is clearly working, and people only mention one recent predecessor, I figure that the body ages until they retire it. Otherwise either the body sticks around long enough that people notice it's weird how Varshan's brother didn't age, or they go through those bodies before signs of aging could appear, which would require a fairly suspicious amount of turnaround.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

He does seem to have a different personality. Unless Vrta is the first roleplayer in where he chose to give his more movable incognito til 6.0 self a different personality to help sell the lie? Were the others also named the same or do you think he came up with a list of names? Or maybe named some after past Satraps in honor of their service, but only after anyone who would remember said person was long forgotten? Kind of like how in the world of Valdimar Herlads have an option to be reborn as a companion, but only after no one would remember who they were.

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He probably got used to roleplaying Vashuun to the point he automatically adjusts his personality when he is using the body. Just like how Emet-Selch has some 'Solus' quirks.

i think its more, that the puppet has its own distinct personality but when it is possession of the eye vtra can see and feel everything, communicating with the puppets own identity. This would explain the difference in behaviour between dragon and the puppet.

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Originally Posted by LystAP

He probably got used to roleplaying Vashuun to the point he automatically adjusts his personality when he is using the body. Just like how Emet-Selch has some 'Solus' quirks.

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You know I like the this idea and can almost picture Vrtra holding a d20 and praying for a crit... don't ask me why...

Didn't think we'd be getting more Vrashan. It's most likely that Vrtra's eye which allows their body to survive the few times they dipped their toes in the 13th. I wonder how much degradation happened to the body. Love how they still blink even when in the same room as Vrtra. I just hope that Vrtra needing to be I guess in a meditative state won't lead to a bad situation.

I wonder if this is the same child body from back when he first had it made?

Its a simulacrum, so it may not experience any normal biological function, including aging. Would explain why he felt the need to remove it from the public eye every couple years. Kind of a Highlander situation. After about 5 years of use he recalls the body and gives excuses to those that know him, then lays low for a year or so, the body gets a makeover with an aesthetician, and then the satrap suddenly has a new favored page running around again to replace the old one.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

I wonder if this is the same child body from back when he first had it made?

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During the Final Days in Thavnair, Vytra had Varshan reverted back into the eye and placed back in his (Vytra's) head. He has both of his eyes in the Thavnair dungeon. After the situation in Thavnair calms down, he removed his eye and had the alchemists reshape it back into Varshan, who he sent to Sharlayan to check up on the status of his people. Earlier on in Endwalker's story, the alchemists reveal that they had suspected that Varshan was connected to the dragon of Thavnair, because they reshaped a dragon eye into the simulacrum. So Vytra has probably been taking his eye in and out and has had his eye shaped into a simulacrum many, many times. The Varshan we see might be his preferred appearance, but is not the same simulacrum that he sent through the gate 5,000 years ago.

Considering how Hraesvelgr kind of dematerialized his eye and transferred it into us temporarily to aid in defeating Nidhogg, I feel like Vrtra probably does something similar with his puppets as opposed to having to resort to more physical measures.

I still can't help but feel like it's a rather...dangerous prospect to have a significant portion of his power detached from him, though; especially if there's a risk of his real body being corrupted by proxy if his vessel is compromised in this coming journey unto the void.

I assumed that it was a very advanced mammet, not a meat suit. We know that mammets are not unlike golems - there is a "core" that contains the code for them to run autonomously, and in the simpler ones also serves as a power source. In more advanced magitek forms like those from the empire, they're capable of some level of pattern recognition (that's why Maggie "remembered" us - she had the core of a mammet, not the standard soulless servomechanism from the empire.) Thavnair was not actually at war with the empire, so the Thavnarian alchemists would have had access to similar technology, so that the puppets Vtrra used could advance more and more over the centuries.

A dragon's eye has more than enough power to power a mammet, even an incredibly advanced one.

Vtra probably just keeps replacing them with a slightly older model every half a year or so, changing so gradually that those who aren't in on the secret don't even notice that he suddenly grew 5 cm in the space of a week.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Considering how Hraesvelgr kind of dematerialized his eye and transferred it into us temporarily to aid in defeating Nidhogg, I feel like Vrtra probably does something similar with his puppets as opposed to having to resort to more physical measures.

I still can't help but feel like it's a rather...dangerous prospect to have a significant portion of his power detached from him, though; especially if there's a risk of his real body being corrupted by proxy if his vessel is compromised in this coming journey unto the void.

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That's what I meant when I asked about degradation. If the simulcarim had any the few times he sent it out into the void all those years ago. As the body isn't made out of dragon stuffs. Or at least isn't hinted at that, just that the eye acts like a core. Which is most likely what protected them during those trips. I also hope this doesn't go south since Nero barely had any wounds and wasn't in there for long before the corruption started to work on him.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Oh, yeah, this is absolutely what happened. But given the cover story is clearly working, and people only mention one recent predecessor, I figure that the body ages until they retire it. Otherwise either the body sticks around long enough that people notice it's weird how Varshan's brother didn't age, or they go through those bodies before signs of aging could appear, which would require a fairly suspicious amount of turnaround.

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The entire reason they retire them is because they DON'T age and people would know something was up if they hung around.

If you do the alchemist job quests in heavenward they explicitly cover cloning as an alchemical art, so pretty sure it's a form of cloning like the allagans preformed

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Originally Posted by SannaR

He does seem to have a different personality. Unless Vrta is the first roleplayer in where he chose to give his more movable incognito til 6.0 self a different personality to help sell the lie? Were the others also named the same or do you think he came up with a list of names? Or maybe named some after past Satraps in honor of their service, but only after anyone who would remember said person was long forgotten? Kind of like how in the world of Valdimar Herlads have an option to be reborn as a companion, but only after no one would remember who they were.

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While we have not interacted with each of the First brood; from the ones we have, and know about, Vrtra is the most human [humane] of all of them. He speaks with the common tongue, has expressed human flaws and virtues, rarely takes flight, and the simulacrum situation with his duality.

Speaking of the latter, whenever a duality is present; typically one is a ruse, while the other is the true persona. The thing about Vrtra is because 99% of his interactions with mankind has been through the simulacrum, his dragon form is the ruse, and Vashaun is the true personality. We have to remember that the consciousness of a dragon is contained in their eyes. The simulacrum possesses Vrtra's memories, resolve, and heart. IOW, Vrtra's dragon form is more of a mammet than Vashaun. That also isn't entirely true, and the dragon and simulacrum more or less are two parts of a single entity.

When putting things in that perspective, Vrtra didn't really have to sell a lie so much as figure out a way to walk among his people as one of them, and is actually quite noble. Estinien does address why he continues to walk around as Vashaun now that the duality has been exposed, and while Vrtra basically says it's more convenient to get around, when you read between the lines, it should be obvious that Vrtra is far more accustomed to walking around as Vashaun. Vrtra in very little time, has developed more back story and lore than any of his siblings.

I don’t think vrtra’s personality seems different when talking through Varshaan or himself. Other than the situations we’ve interacted with him in dragon form are sometimes a bit more formal and he’s speaking as sartrap, so it was maybe more grandiose. But honestly he’s basically just as stiff when talking through the simulacrum. He doesn’t really seem different to me.

he's an iRobot. Eh eh