WHM lilies should generate on cast to teach about ABC

That's it. That's the post.


Okay, some random thoughts regarding this.
- it's not one cast for one lily. More like... 8 or 10 casts for one lily.
- In combat casts only is probably a fair restriction. Other healing spells triggering growth is also fine.
- SGE addersgall is fine on a timer since they have Kardia.
- They could get a long recast time spell that just generates lilies on its own for when bosses jump, but that should be higher level in order to ensure ABC is understood.
- This is more for it's teaching potential than anything else; actual fixes for WHM are welcome, especially since I believe this it will make it easier to show the shortcomings of healing in general.
- Would people blame this system for exposing healing problems rather than the problems themselves...? I don't know.

i like the idea on principle but this is a kind of punishment-oriented job design. couldnt roll your gcd? too bad! no liies!

i think instead they should be on a timer, aaaaaaaand they charge quicker for every cast. for instance if every gcd in combat charged 1.25s worth of lilies, youd have lilies every 20 seconds instead of 30 when keeping uptime, and that way players could feel a tangible difference and actually feel like ABC is worth chasing for.*

*of course, good players know ABC. but mechanics that incentivize good habits should appeal to those who dont have them, not punish them.

So a somewhat worse version of the SB lily system.

I like the idea, if you play the class properly you can get lilies frequently, if you play moderately well you get them every 30 sec or so and if you play terribly you barely get half as much. They'd never do it though.

The other issue is Medica II exists and blows lilies out of the water in terms of heal power. Instead of teaching players to keep high cast uptime, it will mean players turn to Medica II even more because they rarely have lilies active.

How about instead of just giving lilies from casting spells, casting burst damage or heal spells successfully reduces the timer to get lilies by x-seconds? Maybe like 2 or 3 seconds?

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

How about instead of just giving lilies from casting spells, casting burst damage or heal spells successfully reduces the timer to get lilies by x-seconds? Maybe like 2 or 3 seconds?

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I really like this idea. This way even if you're in a situation where you can't hit things for whatever reason, you're still getting lillies back but the better you play the faster you get them back.

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Originally Posted by Haadrak

I really like this idea. This way even if you're in a situation where you can't hit things for whatever reason, you're still getting lillies back but the better you play the faster you get them back.

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So basically... Quickened Aetherflow but better?

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

So basically... Quickened Aetherflow but better?

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That's what I was thinking of when I suggested it. >w>

I have to wonder how this would be any different from simply adjusting the time required per Lily outside of further punishing WHMs for downtime? So long as Spell Speed remains undesirable, there's no difference between 30 seconds and 12 GCDs.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

How about instead of just giving lilies from casting spells, casting burst damage or heal spells successfully reduces the timer to get lilies by x-seconds? Maybe like 2 or 3 seconds?

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It's still the same principle as the OP's suggestion and while a great idea (let's say each spell reduces the timer by 1.5 seconds, it would mean a Lily every 18 sec or so with full uptime), it would "punish" the bad players who would get less lilies per fight. So they'd probably still never do it. But I'd love to see it happen.

A good idea for boss intermission downtime could be a "Meditate" type of ability that lets us charge the Lily gauge.

Of course we'd also need damage neutral lilies if we're able to fire them off more frequently.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

It's still the same principle as the OP's suggestion and while a great idea (let's say each spell reduces the timer by 1.5 seconds, it would mean a Lily every 18 sec or so with full uptime), it would "punish" the bad players who would get less lilies per fight. So they'd probably still never do it. But I'd love to see it happen.

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With how I see it, even if they only use burst healing spells (Cure I/II/III and Medica I/II) successfully (i.e. heal actual damage, which with auto-attacks is constant) and do no damage, it will still "reward" them with reduced lily times. So, unless they just sit there and do nothing, even a bad player will be "rewarded". :D

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

With how I see it, even if they only use burst healing spells (Cure I/II/III and Medica I/II) successfully (i.e. heal actual damage, which with auto-attacks is constant) and do no damage, it will still "reward" them with reduced lily times. So, unless they just sit there and do nothing, even a bad player will be "rewarded". :D

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With how I see it, it's a convoluted version of the SB Lily System. If the goal is to reward uptime, then Lilies need to actually be worth the investment for it to be a reward, which they currently aren't. You can remove the convoluted method of building up Lilies and just have them generate every 15-20 seconds instead because at the end of the day, as well intentioned as the idea might be, the problem is the players themselves. With how many solo instances in this game that require you to beat X, the concept is already there that you should be doing something other than healing but people still fail the execution when it comes time to use that experience in a group setting. You can lead a horse to water but if it would rather die of dehydration than drink, then what can you do?

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

With how I see it, even if they only use burst healing spells (Cure I/II/III and Medica I/II) successfully (i.e. heal actual damage, which with auto-attacks is constant) and do no damage, it will still "reward" them with reduced lily times. So, unless they just sit there and do nothing, even a bad player will be "rewarded". :D

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Auto attack hits aren't always constant, such as boss cast times or when a shield like TBN, Haima or Benison is soaking hits. I also wouldn't count it as "successful" healing if you overkill healed a 1k scratch on a tank with plenty of their own resources, with a Cure II. Not to mention a system that "rewards" you even for non-stop spamming pointless heals on a tank would be a worse trap than freecure.

Bad players certainly do sit there and do nothing too. It's not uncommon for healers nowadays to have below 50% cast uptime. They play the role to do the bare minimum.

I suggested something like this to teach ABC, but it needs to be a system separate from lilies. Give WHM an extra instant cast GCD ability that functions like Assize, damaging everything and healing the party for low (Kardia-ish)potency. Give it elemental flavor (Wind/Earth/Water). The ability is charged by casting offensive spells. 3 charges, possibly cycling elements per cast. Basically, it's a lily but in reverse; you do damage and store a little extra healing on the side.

WHM needs options right now. ABC leading to lilies kind of messes with WHM MP economy since, aside from damage recapture, that's what lilies are all about. For example, if you die on WHM with this change, you're completely screwed since you can't ABC and store free heals from lilies.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

i like the idea on principle but this is a kind of punishment-oriented job design. couldnt roll your gcd? too bad! no liies!

i think instead they should be on a timer, aaaaaaaand they charge quicker for every cast. for instance if every gcd in combat charged 1.25s worth of lilies, youd have lilies every 20 seconds instead of 30 when keeping uptime, and that way players could feel a tangible difference and actually feel like ABC is worth chasing for.*

*of course, good players know ABC. but mechanics that incentivize good habits should appeal to those who dont have them, not punish them.

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Agreed with this. Specifically, I think that it should be with damage spells (Holy, Stone/Glare, Aero/Dia) personally to try to really show people that they should be DPSing. But, I know that would never happen.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Auto attack hits aren't always constant, such as boss cast times or when a shield like TBN, Haima or Benison is soaking hits. I also wouldn't count it as "successful" healing if you overkill healed a 1k scratch on a tank with plenty of their own resources, with a Cure II. Not to mention a system that "rewards" you even for non-stop spamming pointless heals on a tank would be a worse trap than freecure.

Bad players certainly do sit there and do nothing too. It's not uncommon for healers nowadays to have below 50% cast uptime. They play the role to do the bare minimum.

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I know but I was just trying to think how we think the dev team thinks. :P