Would you be ok with a good rival figure for 7.0+?(6.0 spoilers)

Zenos was pretty hit or miss as rival depending on whether you really enjoyed playing that type of story or character and whether or not you actually accepted him as a sort of twisted reflection of the WoL (for me, that was stretching it to the point where you could say anyone could function as a reflection to the WoL.)

Let's say we make a really fun friend who's also an adventurer and we genuinely have a blast traveling around with them narratively and gameplay wise. Make them have a kind of zany personality where you can play the straight man or enabler to, in order to help flesh out what kind of character you are. In trusts, they'll buff you when you're about to burst, and shield you if you have vulnerability stacks. Basically, this person should feel like your new best friend on equal footing. Then you eventually hit an ideological divide, maybe not even by the end of 7.0, but it happens and they eventually go into the frenemy status that Zenos wishes he could have had.

What follows is a mixture of things, them trying to bring you over to their side, having a pointed sparring session, having their actions and results speak for themselves, possibly even being forced to fight you. All of this culminating in a final climax that remembers all of the choices you made and respects them. Imagine taking Zenos up on his offer and just ditching him to rot by his lonesome at the edge of the world. While the end result will be the same in any case, in order to create a streamlined narrative, the goal is to better define what sort of person you want your WoL to be, using a less two-dimensional character to create better nuance.

Ever since someone compared Zenos to Vegeta from DBZ I've thought about how much I would love that. The Scions are so homogeneous, I desperately want some companions with spicy personalities and diverse backgrounds.

Honestly, we've hit a point where our character is way too powerful and talented to make anyone normal able to stack up to them in a manner that's believable. Even in spite of all the advantages he tried to give himself through magitek and other means Zenos nonetheless was trounced by us in the end.

I do expect we're liable to get either a new face or for someone else to get the Estinien/G'raha treatment and be promoted to a MC role for 7.0, though.

At this point, I'd kind of prefer a slightly Machiavellian (but in the sense of still minimizing overall evil, maximizing overall good, even if their decisive actions may make their morals seem suspect at times) tenuous ally with whom to side more or less, at our choice.

A rival wouldn't be too bad, though, if this time around it doesn't rely so heavily on mental illness.

Right now, I'm feeling like we kinda don't need a 'rival' character at all, in part because... well, the last two didn't go down very well, even if I generally liked Ran'jit.

And I think it's because, to appropriately depict an equal-footing opponent like that you have to have the player character lose at first, and so far, they haven't managed to sell that all too well. I'll say that I accepted Ran'jit because he worked for me, but just going by overall player response, neither of them were exactly a slam dunk.

Honestly, I don't believe we've seen the last of Zenos. I won't exactly be sad if we have, though.

My thoughts on the matter are that the writers sought to write an evil foil of the WoL in Zenos. Whereas everyone in the world loves and embraces the WoL(except Garleans/Ascians), everyone shudders and hates/fears Zenos.

I truly believe the writing teams' goal was to make us not like Zenos. It took me over a year to see it that way. After I saw it that way, I got on board with the character, and I think he's great. I really do hope to see him come back, and hope that it'll tag along behind us.

Though I see the appeal in what you're asking for. You're essentially asking for Jowy from Suikoden II. In case you aren't in the know about that character, a brief spoilery summary would be:

Jowy was the main characters best friend, almost like a brother, growing up. He has a great affection for the main character, Riou's, sister Nanami.

The two enlist in the army together, only to be driven out of it when it attempts to kill them to use their corpses as scapegoats in a war against a rival nation.

The two then join that nation, seeking to stop their home country from waging its blood war of conquest.

Along the way they are chosen by a divinity more or less. It gifts Riou the Bright Shield Rune and Jowy the Dark Sword Rune. True Runes that will give them power at a cost.

Eventually, Jowy decides on his own that with the power of the Dark Sword Rune, he can rise to prominence and take over their home country from within. This leads him to betray Riou and the country they've been supporting. This leads to many deaths, and the character spirals off from there to become an antagonist ( though one with the possibility of reconciliation provided you collect all 108 Stars of Destiny).

The issue with doing that kind of character is that it will split the playerbase on an ideological level yet again, rather than on a preference level for the character. If you think the split discourse on characters is bad right now... well... shoot. It'd be crazy worse if they introduce a character that people really come to love, who then turns on you.

There's already tons of nuances in the characters we've been given, it's just nuance isn't really what a lot of folks are here for, sad to say.

Just the way I see it. I wouldn't mind seeing it myself.

I'm not sure about a rival, exactly, but the next party-group desperately needs way more contrasting characters. A major issue with Endwalker was that the Scions were effectively all on the same page about everything - Much of the time you could have easily swapped dialog between characters as they're reacting to events without anything changing. And not to go there, but a few conflicting opinions on certain characters from the Scions would have gone a long way towards a lot of people's enjoyment of both Shadowbringers and Endwalker.

More than anything, I hope we don't carry the Scions forward. I like them, but I've had quite enough at this point. There are many more existing characters that I'd like to adventure with, to say nothing of whatever new faces might come along. Instead of a group of sterling goodguy PHDs and genius savants, I'd rather have a more FF6-onwards type party of misfits who fill a variety of technical and narrative roles, and bring more to the table in terms of ideals and perspectives.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

The issue with doing that kind of character is that it will split the playerbase on an ideological level yet again, rather than on a preference level for the character. If you think the split discourse on characters is bad right now... well... shoot. It'd be crazy worse if they introduce a character that people really come to love, who then turns on you.

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You aren't kidding. I hated Jowy and always viewed him as a traitor. I'm definitely not interested in that type of 'rival'.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

I'm not sure about a rival, exactly, but the next party-group desperately needs way more contrasting characters. A major issue with Endwalker was that the Scions were effectively all on the same page about everything - Much of the time you could have easily swapped dialog between characters as they're reacting to events without anything changing. And not to go there, but a few conflicting opinions on certain characters from the Scions would have gone a long way towards a lot of people's enjoyment of both Shadowbringers and Endwalker.

More than anything, I hope we don't carry the Scions forward. I like them, but I've had quite enough at this point. There are many more existing characters that I'd like to adventure with, to say nothing of whatever new faces might come along. Instead of a group of sterling goodguy PHDs and genius savants, I'd rather have a more FF6-onwards type party of misfits who fill a variety of technical and narrative roles, and bring more to the table in terms of ideals and perspectives.

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I think that'd go some way of redressing my current dissatisfaction with the story, TBH, so I'll lend a +1 to that. With respect to the bolded, I'd like some latitude in how my character addresses those situations too, even if it's mere words in the end.

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Originally Posted by Teah_Kaye

I think we definitely need some more interesting new characters. I enjoyed getting to adventure with the Elpis cast a bit in 6.0 and I liked it for its own sake but I really think I enjoyed it so much because I'm just that bored with the Scions.

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Yeah, I think a big part of why people like Elpis so much was that we had an entirely new central cast rather than the same lot. I don't think the Three Stooges are actually better than the Scions, but we sure as hell weren't as used to them.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

You aren't kidding. I hated Jowy and always viewed him as a traitor. I'm definitely not interested in that type of 'rival'.

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I still don't really understand his shift towards what he did. When I was a kid, I simply blamed the Rune.

I would love another crazy, but sympathetic villain like Yotsuyu. Now take her chaotic nature and turn her into a villain turned companion or companion turned villain and we would be in for a crazy ride.

And they really need to start keeping the good villains like Emet, Ysayle and Yotsuyu around and not quickly displace them for cringy, shallow, anime villains like Zenos or Asahi. Same goes for the companions. I have had about enough of Y'shtola's snobbery and Graha's fawning. We need more grounded companions like Ardbert or for your fellow 1.0 players, Louisoix, someone quiet and sincere like Arenvald or someone silly but not too much like Godbert.

The reason why adventuring parties tend to have similar views in the long run is because they naturally part company when they don't align. Characters with opposing ideologies either out themselves in a edgy betrayal or simply leave because your affection score is too low. By the time you're at the final boss, everyone is on the same page out of habit and necessity. If you want to use FF6 as an example, it's probably the original entry which properly established the 'one-liner we learnt from our friends on our journey together' trope ('I kupo all my friends!'). You're going to get that 'adventuring family' vibe from pretty much any group that sticks together long enough, and 10 years is a long time.

I do think that if you want a good villain, you have to invest in them, which means introducing them early and giving them plenty of character development, as well as creating motivation for a grudge. I don't think that it's impossible to find someone suitably challenging given that there's so little of the world that we've seen, but repeated showdowns tend to diminish their impact. I think that you have to pull a bit of a reverse Zenos and make the player want that fight to happen while denying them that satisfaction.

I think some really good base material that we have at the moment is Azem's reflection on the Thirteenth. Their death was what created the Void in the first place, and there's probably a lot of pent up resentment around that.

Griffith did nothing wrong, okay. (Bad example: in the original Berserk manga, Griffith's betrayal is actually a foregone conclusion. The entire Golden Age flashback is then there so you can fall for him while also being on pins and needles over when he's finally going to turn, what event will be the betrayal that sends Guts down the path of revenge. And there is none: he took the ideals embraced by his followers and went all the way to the edge with them. In another story, he'd be the hero.)

That would be a really hard character to pull off in any Final Fantasy, though, not just XIV. Hermes really comes close, but there's ambiguity over where Hermes ends and Amon begins, not to mention Elpis is only a few EXP levels worth of content, rather than 10 volumes of manga.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

The reason why adventuring parties tend to have similar views in the long run is because they naturally part company when they don't align. Characters with opposing ideologies either out themselves in a edgy betrayal or simply leave because your affection score is too low. By the time you're at the final boss, everyone is on the same page out of habit and necessity. If you want to use FF6 as an example, it's probably the original entry which properly established the 'one-liner we learnt from our friends on our journey together' trope ('I kupo all my friends!'). You're going to get that 'adventuring family' vibe from pretty much any group that sticks together long enough, and 10 years is a long time.

I do think that if you want a good villain, you have to invest in them, which means introducing them early and giving them plenty of character development, as well as creating motivation for a grudge. I don't think that it's impossible to find someone suitably challenging given that there's so little of the world that we've seen, but repeated showdowns tend to diminish their impact. I think that you have to pull a bit of a reverse Zenos and make the player want that fight to happen while denying them that satisfaction.

I think some really good base material that we have at the moment is Azem's reflection on the Thirteenth. Their death was what created the Void in the first place, and there's probably a lot of pent up resentment around that.

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Do you have any proof about that 'Azem's shard caused the Thirteenth'? Because that sounds like something I would've heard SUPER clearly if it were real, and I've never heard anything even remotely resembling it before.

One thing I do think was a bit of a missed opportunity with Endwalker is the new influences in the Scions, though. Estinien is a very different person to the rest of the Scions, it would've been really good to see that be played on more, and G'raha had potential, but neither of them really did anything big on that. Which, granted, would've been hard to fit in anyway since Endwalker was VERY plot-dense, but it's still a missed opportunity.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Do you have any proof about that 'Azem's shard caused the Thirteenth'? Because that sounds like something I would've heard SUPER clearly if it were real, and I've never heard anything even remotely resembling it before.

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EE Vol 1, p.213, entry on Igeyorhm.
'In the Thirteenth, Igeyorhm's power proved too much for the inexperienced Bringer of Light and their one-sided battles eventually resulted in a Flood of Darkness consuming the entire world and rendering it a nigh-empty void.'

It sounds like the reverse story of the events on the First, with the Warrior of Light acting as the catalyst for the Flood instead of the corresponding Ascian (i.e. Mitron). So if there's an 'Eden' equivalent on the Thirteenth at the top of the Void hierarchy, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a fairly irritated dark Azem.

I believe I would prefer we don't get a replacement Zenos. Their last attempt at replacing Zenos with a new rival gave us easily the worst, most annoying character to date: Ran'jit.

Now facing off against an errant shard of Azem, on the other hand... that could indeed be interesting. Extra points if it ends with the WoL reabsorbing said shard to become 9/14ths rejoined.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

EE Vol 1, p.213, entry on Igeyorhm.
'In the Thirteenth, Igeyorhm's power proved too much for the inexperienced Bringer of Light and their one-sided battles eventually resulted in a Flood of Darkness consuming the entire world and rendering it a nigh-empty void.'

It sounds like the reverse story of the events on the First, with the Warrior of Light acting as the catalyst for the Flood instead of the corresponding Ascian (i.e. Mitron). So if there's an 'Eden' equivalent on the Thirteenth at the top of the Void hierarchy, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a fairly irritated dark Azem.

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I'm fairly sure that the 'Bringer of Light' was Unukalhai, actually, although I can't check his whole story right now. He doesn't seem all too resentful, or monstrous. Mostly just short.

Depends on who. I definitely don't want another Zenos, his obsession with our characters got boring in StB. If it's a healthy rival, someone that somehow has enough power to compare with the WARRIOR OF F***ING LIGHT, sure.

Unukalhai may have had the Echo, but I don't think that either Unukalhai or Cylva were officially designated as being Azem's counterpart on the Thirteenth. The impression that I had was that they were simply two heroes who survived the Flood of Darkness.

So I want the next expac to introduce with a character creation
you can pick any race and gender combo
once you finish making the character, you follow the story of this character for a while
turns out their entire purpose for existence is to want to kill the WoL, for revenge or for whatever reason, it is not revealed
there is 2 voice actors for this character, one for male and one for female
the rest of the expansion focuses on following both stories from the WoL's point of view and this new nemesis point of view, culminating in their encounter and the appropriate reveals.

I will accept Gabranth as a good rival character, as everything in the Save the Queen storyline set things up for us to meet again and painted exactly who he is. A man with the same ideals as us, willing to do what it takes to achieve them, manipulate even allies when necessary, and even folding his hand when he finds somebody else is achieving them for him. Leaving us guessing as to what he wants, when/if he'll turn on us, and whether or not this will be the time we have to put him down.

Jowy's problem was that he literally betrays you without warning and you don't really know why until the 3/4s through the game.

Ran'jit isn't a rival, he's just an obstacle to overcome. With Zenos they actually tried, and tried again to make him a foil of the WoL which is what gives him the rival status.


Theoretical rival isn't going to outright betray you, you'll just end up finding yourselves on opposite sides. While in frenemy status, they're going to join you in trust dungeons whenever your goals align. You're not going to be forced into any auto-lose duels, in fact you can have choices like: "Let them go" or "Capture them" which still lead to them escaping in the short term (linear narrative) but still colors your motivations. Later on, you might even have the option to agree with them, only for them to railroad you back into the ideal hero archetype because they realize that it's more conducive to the greater good that you have better optics if you don't dirty your hands... especially if you're a rumored pants thief.

Could be fun if you had a rival as one of the party members, rather than as a main antagonist, which we already did with Zenos.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Now facing off against an errant shard of Azem, on the other hand... that could indeed be interesting. Extra points if it ends with the WoL reabsorbing said shard to become 9/14ths rejoined.

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Wow, this and an earlier post that reminded me about Guild Wars makes me think: wouldn't a trial or story instance fight against our doppelganger be dope? Sure, there's the DRK level 50 fight, but it's pretty short and not very involved (also, i despise someone telling me how i should think and how i supposedly feel, since they were way off the mark with all that whining).

No.

I think the rival concept isn't helping the story at this juncture. Look at Zenos. Look at Ranjit. Look at Nero. These guys aren't moving the plot.

Let's have a villain who puts us in a moral conundrum and has a coterie of monsters to fight without these "rivals" who do no more than muddy the water. The writers for this game are better then that!

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Originally Posted by Veloran

I'm not sure about a rival, exactly, but the next party-group desperately needs way more contrasting characters. A major issue with Endwalker was that the Scions were effectively all on the same page about everything - Much of the time you could have easily swapped dialog between characters as they're reacting to events without anything changing. And not to go there, but a few conflicting opinions on certain characters from the Scions would have gone a long way towards a lot of people's enjoyment of both Shadowbringers and Endwalker.

More than anything, I hope we don't carry the Scions forward. I like them, but I've had quite enough at this point. There are many more existing characters that I'd like to adventure with, to say nothing of whatever new faces might come along. Instead of a group of sterling goodguy PHDs and genius savants, I'd rather have a more FF6-onwards type party of misfits who fill a variety of technical and narrative roles, and bring more to the table in terms of ideals and perspectives.

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I appreciate that you said this. I've personally felt the established character of Fordola would be a grand addition to the team, along with Estinien and Alisaie would be a great base to rebuild a team of contrasting personalities.

I was honestly expecting Fordola to be present in the EW MSQ after she mentioned wanting to know just what in the world was going on with the empire and Zenos.

She would definitely be an interesting person to have around considering how much of an aggressive cynic she is compared to the Scions who are more subdued about it if at all.

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Originally Posted by Teah_Kaye

I've seen numerous other people comment that they want to trade some of the Scions for the Ancient trio. I feel like, given the option, I'd be down for that as well and that's horrible. We shouldn't feel that way and the fact that that was the takeaway a not-insignificant number of people got from our brief adventure sans the Scions is a failure of writing.

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No trio, just Emet and Hythlodaeus. I'd trade everyone but G'raha and Estinien for them and not feel bad about it either. Thancred is iffy because I can't stand Minfilia and too much of his character has been wrapped up in her. The other Scions I honestly wouldn't care if I never saw again and it's not that I dislike all of them (although some I do), I'm just apathetic.

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Originally Posted by Misplaced_Marbles

Wow, this and an earlier post that reminded me about Guild Wars makes me think: wouldn't a trial or story instance fight against our doppelganger be dope? Sure, there's the DRK level 50 fight, but it's pretty short and not very involved (also, i despise someone telling me how i should think and how i supposedly feel, since they were way off the mark with all that whining).

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Honestly, probably not especially worth it. City of Heroes introduced this mechanic, and also showcased where exactly it hits problems on a functional level; that requires basically designing, right now, nineteen to twenty boss fights (depending on if you let Blue Mage in), the vast majority of which most players will never see. Not only that, but every future job added requires them to make another new boss fight for that--that was actually somewhere City of Heroes fell over after a few years, they just didn't add the ability for the doppelgangers to use later powersets, which meant the doppelganger couldn't... y'know, fight.

I think the closest you'll get on this is the Warrior of Light trial, and the Bozja duels; the trial is clearly meant to evoke a 'fight a boss version of the player character' theme with jacked-up versions of player abilities (that even then doesn't really feel like that if you aren't into one of the showcased jobs), and the Bozja duels covering a 'fight your combative equal one-on-one' angle, with some of them even having comparable skillsets to player jobs.

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Originally Posted by Teah_Kaye

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I'd love to take a party of Loporrits on an adventuring campaign. You'd just need Tataru to outfit them with Onion Knight armor, and then you'd have your very own Scallions of the Seventh Dawn.

Assuming the situation in central Ilsabard doesn't just blow over off-screen somehow, I wouldn't seeing more of Jullus and/or Gaius if we end up having to help bring stability to the region due to territorial disputes between the remaining Garlean legions and/or a lingering presence of blasphemies that emerged due to discontent with the imperial rule.

Likewise, if the eastern regions like Hingashi and Nagxia end up being a focus, I'd welcome having Yugiri and Gosetsu around again..

I think if we get stories pertaining to the other continents that would be an ideal time to introduce entirely new characters from those lands to serve as a focus, akin to how XI had a distinct "main" character for each of its expansions (Ariciela, Aphmau, and Lilisette being the ones I can recall strictly from their presence in spin-offs) after the initial story arc ended. Perhaps someone with ties to the Whalaqee tribe for the New World or Tiamat's brood in the case of Meracydia.

We are literally god at this point. I personally believe EW is the beginning of the end in terms of the writing as they’ve literally wrote themselves into a corner with no threats, no physical way to best being in space and beyond, and no way for anyone to challenge us, the WOL who’s literally beaten despair itself.

Any rival for use would be Poultry, and a pathetic one. The only time they’ve reset the status quo was in SHB where we were a nobody again, but now we are the savior of multiple realms

They don't need to keep raising the stakes further and making the journeys more extreme with every expansion. WoW tried to do that and it's how they ended up the narrative sinkhole they're in now.

As far as the power scale goes, the Endsinger kind of dug her own grave because us and the Scions ultimately turned the excess of dynamis she had gathered against her, so I honestly don't consider her that much of a dead end in that regard. I also feel like Zenos existed largely to demonstrate that a more grounded antagonist can still be a threat to us (At least from a narrative standpoint...) because at the end of the day the main things he had going for him were his Resonant treatment and his own exceptional combat prowess. The vast majority of the human foes we've contended with tend to have only some kind of power augmentation or martial skill to rely on, not both, so I kind of expect any future antagonists to be like him by necessity if they want them to be threatening to us specifically.

Villains can still be compelling by virtue of the threat they pose to the others around us and don't necessarily need to keep upending us on the power scale, either. After all, it's not like there's any indication we broke even a slight sweat when it came to dealing with...basically anyone prior to Zenos. It could even be interesting to deal with a villain whose strength lies in politics and subterfuge; manipulating the people and other circumstances to put themselves in a position that makes them extremely difficult to deal with via brute force; klnda like Teledji but less stupid (Seriously, don't gloat about your evil schemes right in front of the guy who hates your guts more then anyone else).

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Originally Posted by Jirah

We are literally god at this point. I personally believe EW is the beginning of the end in terms of the writing as they’ve literally wrote themselves into a corner with no threats, no physical way to best being in space and beyond, and no way for anyone to challenge us, the WOL who’s literally beaten despair itself.

Any rival for use would be Poultry, and a pathetic one. The only time they’ve reset the status quo was in SHB where we were a nobody again, but now we are the savior of multiple realms

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I think it's folly to declare us a god rather than just 'a really good fighter who's got some big stories'. Nothing that's happened to us has been necessarily anything that another exceptionally good warrior would've been able to do given the right opportunity, it's just that we happened to be in the right place at the right time. Granted, I think they're gonna have a challenge trying to write themselves down from that peak in a way that doesn't inherently feel a little bit low-rent in comparison, but other franchises have walked that road quite well before; we're in the spot of 'Dragon Ball Z after killing Frieza' or 'JoJo's Bizarre Adventure after Stardust Crusaders', they just need to pitch a smaller scale in a way that doesn't feel like smaller stakes. But I think declaring us to be Superman is wrong, and drives you down a wrong path in considering alternatives.

I think the spot we're generally at is that we're among the best mortal warriors in the world, but that doesn't mean we're indisputably the best one, or that that makes us necessarily some kind of superhero. For a good example of both of those and a good way of how you can tell a story around it, consider Bozja: we're nothing to sneeze at, but we're one person who can be outmaneuvered and outnumbered, and there's a few people in the IVth Legion who can give us a run for our money in a straight-up fight. Just because we're top dog, doesn't mean we shouldn't watch ourselves.

Gameplay and story segregation are unfortunately a thing. Most of the enemies we face that appear to be a legitimate challenge actually aren't in lore, which is partly explained away as the WoL never fully exerting themselves outside of a few rare circumstances. The only mortals that have been able to stand up to the WoL's full might head on were Zenos and Ran'jit, the latter of which is universally agreed upon to come across as forced to a degree that is ridiculous. All other incidents were written in such a way as to provide adversaries with a numbers, tactical, or technological advantage. None the less, this does mean the WoL is not invincible.

The world's a big place. We've spent 10 years just exploring part of a continent. If Etheirys had an equivalent scale to Earth, you could easily spend another 60 years travelling and still not see everything. Let alone all the parallel worlds floating around.

Given how closed off global travel is, it's easily possible for different continents on Etheirys to have large differences in their technology and fighting power.

I think the bigger issue is your sense of 'safety'. Heavensward's strongest element was its setup through 2.5, in that you're effectively an exile with no reputation of value seeking refuge. Shadowbringers likewise did a good job of giving you this sense of being in a new world against an oppressive foe without your usual supports. Part of this gets diluted by the fact that you're still playing an MMO, so they can't truly 'shipwreck' you in a foreign land with no access to your usual safe zones like an offline Final Fantasy entry can. I think a lot of this comes down to how quickly you establish yourself. If you show up in Meracydia and become viewed as a continent-wide rockstar within an expansion of your arrival, then you've effectively 'conquered' the area. Of course you're going to feel like nothing can really challenge you because you own the zone.

This has more to do with how easily the local populace is won over by your actions, and less to do with how 'powerful' the bad guys are. You can always scale enemies up. But you can only win over an area once.

Considering how they danced around and joked about all Zenos questions in the Live Letter, I wouldn’t be surprised if this is what happens.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

The only mortals that have been able to stand up to the WoL's full might head on were Zenos and Ran'jit,

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and Raubahn (if you count sparring), and Elidibus in Zenos' body, and Lyon, and Sartauvoir, and Elidibus in Ardbert's body, and Menenius, and Lyon again, and Venat...

There's actually been a good few people that 1v1'd us and walked away, it's just that not all of them went in for multiple rounds.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

and Raubahn (if you count sparring), and Elidibus in Zenos' body, and Lyon, and Sartauvoir, and Elidibus in Ardbert's body, and Menenius, and Lyon again, and Venat...

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You just listed a bunch of people that WoL beat.