We're going to need new sources of tomestones.

So, um... I don't hang out a lot on the forums in threads I don't start and can't easily track, so forgive me if this has been beaten into the ground already, but...

- 4 person dungeons and trials will not require luring veteran players in with daily rewards to get new players/characters through the story, now that they're all going with trusts (YAY TRUSTS ACROSS THE BOARD!)

- All the MSQ roulette stuff is being made non-interdependent by various means.

So your "path of least resistance" daily roulettes are basically gutted. I mean some still exist, like "Crystal Tower Roulette," but am I the only one seeing a need for new "path of least resistance" sources of copious tomestones? If I'm a newer person, some community etiquette ideal like "do those dungeons via roulette because it's considered polite to lower queue times" isn't landing. I'm doing trusts. If that etiquette or something like it is the hope, that people will still do roulettes... I mean, I don't know what to tell you.

Criterion dungeons might be the new source, and if so, great, but like... there should be something, right? We shouldn't just... go into a space where only those that "WANT CHALLENGE" or interdependence all the time in everything get a decent tomestone income.

This isn't a thread (or least isn't intended to be a thread) where we list all the other sources of tomestones that exist now, I've already made that thread... this is discussing the massive hit the "path of least resistance" tomestone income (not just poetics) is taking, and a need to fill that void or vastly change the tone of tomestone acquisition.

Perhaps the roulettes will still exist, but there's arguably no reason to weight their daily rewards so much when no one *needs* the help to get through the content, because it's been changed to trusts or solo duties.

I'm honestly surprised this isn't a bigger talking point in what social FFXIV media circles I'm in. Acquiring "easy tomestones" being zapped like this is... it's a big deal. Losing "tomestones and chill" almost feels like a new game.

See, the thing about Poetics tomestones is ... you don't really need all that many of them. And once you've got every class you're going to play to level 80, you don't need any of them. And that's the only thing MSQ roulette was exceptionally good at, tomestone-wise.

The level 90 tomestones? *WAY* faster from doing roulettes than anything else. Expert and Alliance Raid Roulettes will remain excellent sources of them.

If anything, the REAL tomestone problem came from when SE stopped doing real relics and just gave us Eureka and Bozja weapons instead - making the level 90 uncapped tomestones have basically zero value. And killing off any real reason to run 5678, Trial or Normal Raid roulette, or Expert once one is capped.

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Originally Posted by Omedon

- 4 person dungeons and trials will not require luring veteran players in with daily rewards to get new players/characters through the story, now that they're all going with trusts (YAY TRUSTS ACROSS THE BOARD!)

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Although this is a good point, some people choose not to use Trusts because it's an MMO or they play for the interaction. Through to 7.0, trials will still require players and so will sidequest dungeons.

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So your "path of least resistance" daily roulettes are basically gutted. I mean some still exist, like "Crystal Tower Roulette," but am I the only one seeing a need for new "path of least resistance" sources of copious tomestones?

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Before MSQ roulette gave so many tomestones, it was common to farm Aetherochemical Research Facility so that could return for people that don't want to do eureka or farm hunts.

There are so many sources of tomestones that it's not the tomestones I would be worried about, but the joy we get out of helping new players clear dungeons will be lost. Seeing them die to their first stack marker that they ran away with.

I can easily max out my tomestones of Aphorism and reach my weekly cap in tomestones of Astronomy by doing a single evening's worth of map runs with my guildmates and friends. EASILY. There are no problems with finding sources of these tomestones. There are only problems with having such low caps.

All I'm seeing here is you wanting another path to be lazy.

I'm personally ecstatic about these changes because that means when I'm running roulettes I won't get the same ones EVERY SINGLE TIME.

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

All I'm seeing here is you wanting another path to be lazy.

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Well, yes, of course. Economic use of effort is part of these games, supplying for that demand is part of these games, and that equation is changing.

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Originally Posted by Omedon

Perhaps the roulettes will still exist, but there's arguably no reason to weight their daily rewards so much when no one *needs* the help to get through the content, because it's been changed to trusts or solo duties.

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I don't think anything was said that even hints at the possibiity roulettes will be going away. It's still a MMO to be played with other people. They just want those who prefer a more solo experience to have options.

The only roulette that might disappear is MSQ roulette, and that's no loss. There are already plenty of sources for tomestones.

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Originally Posted by Omedon

Well, yes, of course. Economic use of effort is part of these games, supplying for that demand is part of these games, and that equation is changing.

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I'd like to quote a Civ games dev here:

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Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game

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There is a balance to be had between allowing optimization and maintaining entertainment. You can argue that we're possibly losing one or two sources of backup tomes but the devs have no real incentive to cater to those they've been attempting to cut out for years now. The people you're talking about are likely the auto-attackers and castrum-leavers in MSQ and the people who gear-cheat to get crystal tower.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I don't think anything was said that even hints at the possibiity roulettes will be going away. It's still a MMO to be played with other people. They just want those who prefer a more solo experience to have options.

The only roulette that might disappear is MSQ roulette, and that's no loss. There are already plenty of sources for tomestones.

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Roulette is falling apart a bit. If you want to level a job via dungeons it's best to queue directly to the highest ones you can instead of using leveling roulette. This works only for healers and tanks though. So if a sprout needs a group for something - tough luck, use trust because the game isn't helping any more.

If you want to level a DPS via roulette then dungeons have like 12-18 min queue and MSQ currently can be over 30 min. And there is a lot of people that will imply you are only meant to do the roulette only once a day and then level alt jobs via solo deep dungeons or solo-ish Bozja - the most optimal path - which is a solo content. Implying roulette should be better at this is perceived "wrong" for some reason.

And now they want to gain FF franchise players that for all those years did not want to play FF11/14 due to online element. If they actually manage to do that then by the time of 8.0 everything in MSQ will have to support trust or there will be a big drama / cultural shock between MMO and solo players.

And then poetics - HW relics need a lot, sometimes you need it for alt gear, so now the only allowed source will be... Bozja? Next thing we will see announced is Bozja and deep dungeons mobile apps :)

Since MSQ roulette is going to go away, I feel that their reward should be offloaded to other roulette. I think expert lv90 dungeon roulette (when there are new expert dungeons) doesn't mind to have some extra poetic tombstones, while lv50/60/70/80 dungeons would love to have some extra exp bonus.


Or, they can make a 24-man raid alliance that excludes Crystal Tower series to have the reward of MSQ dungeon (called it Advanced Alliance Roulette or something, unlocked once you get Void Ark series). Length-wise, anything from Void Ark and above is as long as a Castrum run, so the reward makes sense. Difficulty-wise, while these raids won't be as braindead, so it will be less boring though required more efforts. And since lv60+ alliance raids is pretty much relatively equal in term of completion time, people has less incentive trying to cheat ilevel.

The way I see it is all people did was complain about other players and having to do roulettes they didn't want to be a part of, so people got what they asked for. :/

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Although this is a good point, some people choose not to use Trusts because it's an MMO or they play for the interaction.

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They are also extremely slow when doing a dungeon. They are good for the first time though as a fun story part but after that I don't like trust because they are just slow. Also if you die then everyone instantly dies.

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Originally Posted by Omedon

So, um... I don't hang out a lot on the forums in threads I don't start and can't easily track, so forgive me if this has been beaten into the ground already, but...

- 4 person dungeons and trials will not require luring veteran players in with daily rewards to get new players/characters through the story, now that they're all going with trusts (YAY TRUSTS ACROSS THE BOARD!)

- All the MSQ roulette stuff is being made non-interdependent by various means.

So your "path of least resistance" daily roulettes are basically gutted.

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We've had trusts for the whole of Shadowbringers and Endwalker but an overwhelming number of players still queue to play with other people. Recent experience suggests that the Trust system is a backstop for a certain population but not even close to everyone. The only biggie that will definitely vanish is the MSQ roulette but that's probably a good thing and they can just do a tiny reallocation to bump up the poetic rewards for Raids roulette, problem solved. I mean if you are trying to get through Ivalice/Omega/Eden for the first time the Duty queue is still "long-ish".

Honestly, I don't use MSQ, and I have a problem trying to find what I should actually use the tomestones for.

in 5.0, I just used it to upgrade jobs to 70 gear as I was going to play them...by the time that one job got to 80, I probably had enough tomes to gear two others. Pre 6.0, I was wasting tomestones, ultimately buying Bozja weapons because "hey at least it's something".

Now that 6.0 is out and the 80 gear has shifted to Poetics, I'm doing exactly the same thing..and only 4 jobs to 90 I've already bought every piece of Cryptlurker jewelry and like... 3 full sets of gear (Tank, Healer, Ranged DPS). The only one left to buy I'll get mileage out of is the caster set because I can level 3 jobs with it. Maybe DRG/RPR.

For me, and me personally, I don't need more sources of tomestones to earn. I need more things to spend them on. Even if it's just convert to cash money.

Disclaimer, if it's needed: I do not run content at cap, aside from alliance raids and the normal-mode of the raid series, like Eden. I don't do enough content to generate the "endgame" tomestone and do understand that I could be doing that instead..but my goal is to level everything, not get BiS.

I'd rather use the duty finder and get group than use trusts, this is a mmo and it's nice playing with other people

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Originally Posted by Momo_Kozuki

... Since MSQ roulette is going to go away, I feel that their reward should be offloaded to other roulette.

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The rewards were only added as an incentive to allow first timers to be able to run through the dungeons without being told to 'skip the cutscenes and watch them in the inn' as was prevalent prior to making the cutscenes unskippable.

I don't feel they need to offload the added rewards anywhere else, just eliminate them with the msq roulette.

Or just keep the reward on the MSQ roulette? That doesn't mean the MSQ Roulette is going anywhere just due to the changes in the two happening.

Hopefully they do move the poetics off to the other roulettes. I hadn't really bothered with the MSQ roulette until I started working on my anima weapon, and need to buy a bunch of items for that using poetics.

Was in context for another thread but something I believe that could be a nice change, specially for casual players but also some nice options and tweaks to someone's perfect rotation, is a revamped challenge log system. With the purpose of allowing it to temporarily incentivize both diversity of content but also to ignore the path of least resistance depending on your cadence and list of goals.

I had thought there might be a small handful of daily options, that didn't really offer anything beyond xp, but the weekly ones would be buffed in multiple ways including on XP and perhaps a new Baubble of Merit type reward that allows you to purchase tokens for a lot of other content. For example you might complete 2 unique leve for the day to get a bonus 15% exp, and the weekly of 10 unique leve would reward you 30% exp and 1 babble. You can use that to purchase tomestones, hunt tokens, gc seals, etc. Encouraging non-standard options as well like "kill 5 unique B ranks" or maybe even you might be able to get some tomestones for doing saucer content. Because they're weekly they're not going to be repeatable until next week, and the ones rewarding major things would be a little bit harder but still allowing you to do something in a way that is against the grain but not feel like "wow what a waste of time to do what I want, I guess I'll choose progression instead... as I've got 3 hours this week and I can't allocate any of it to what I really wanted because I have to do the roulette instead".

I do like the challenge log currently, but I also feel like it's more of a little bit of a cherry on top sort of thing and focused on content that already gives what it .. kind of already gives. I think.. it could be used, as said above, to temporarily allow the game to divert flow of progression into "how you want to play" instead. Of course hyper easy or repeatable ones need to be careful with what they do to the economy (no daily should offer gil lol). Not that it needs daily, I just think it could be a nice way for players to be like "you know what, I don't feel like doing 2 dungeons today- I actually want to a treasure chest for 10% exp bonus".