Is Everyone Playing BLM wrong?

So I am told over and over that I am doing things wrong as Black Mage, but based on my understanding on how things work my way actually works better.

Other people: Fire III, Fire IV x2, Triple Cast, Fire IV x2, Despair, Blizzard III, Blizzard IV, Thunder III, repeat
10 spells
Fire boosted potency: 310, 310, 310, 310, 340 = 1,580*1.2*1.3*1.8 = 4,437
Other potency: 260 (first Fire III not boosted), 260, 310 = 830*1.2*1.3 = 1,295
5,732 effective potency per rotation

Me: Fire III, Fire IV x2, Fire III, Fire IV x3, Despair, Transpose, Xenoglossy(otherwise Blizzard IV if no Polyglot and late tick on mana), Blizzard IV, Thunder III, repeat
11 spells
Fire boosted potency: 310, 310, 260, 310, 310, 310, 340 = 2,150*1.2*1.3*1.8 = 6,037
Other potency: 260 (first Fire III not boosted), 310, 310 = 880*1.2*1.3 = 1,373
7,410 effective potency per rotation

(1.2*=enochian, 1.3*=maim and mend, 1.8*=astral fire boost)

Granted spell speed can play a factor. If you have enough spell speed you might be able to get a fifth fire IV in which would put total fire damage up to 1,890 vs and match my 11 spells. Even then it is still 1890 vs 2150 and you would have to build spell speed vs critical hit/determination/direct hit. Also other people's combo requires using Triple Cast to get everything off in time or remove a Fire IV. Mine has 7-8 seconds after first Fire IVs are done so you can move/interrupt if you need to and save Triple Cast for when you need it. Also when do you use Xenoglossy in most people's rotations? Xenoglossy isn't fire damage so it doesn't get the 80% boost from Astral Fire... so why cast it in your fire rotation?

Also I know most people don't use Transpose, but 1 Umbral Ice is enough to fill my MP over 3 casts (Xenoglossy, Blizzard IV, Thunder III usually) so I don't need Umbral Ice 3 (This is why I skip Blizzard III). Transpose is better in my opinion since it isn't on global cooldown. You can start casting right away after using it. You might say "But if you just did Despair you don't have the MP for Blizzard III". You are right... but it also depends on when your MP ticks. If it ticks right after you transpose you can get it off right away. If not I also usually have a Xenoglossy I can use which doesn't cost MP. There is some thinking in the situation involved.

Side note... why I do not Fire IV 3 times after the first Fire III. You are trying to have your second Fire III hit the last Umbral Heart. This way you are at 1600 mp when you use Despair the last time. Otherwise it would be Fire III, Fire IV x3, Fire III, Fire IV, Despair without Fire III's 2k discounted mana from Umbral Heart.

Also I know you can Manafont after Despair to get another Fire IV and Despair in afterwards, but you can do that regardless of the combo. With Manafont being on a 2 minute cooldown you can't do this every time as well.

Side note: I am 85 right now. I imagine the following changes as I get to 90.

Amplifier: Increases chances I get to Xenoglossy when I want to.
Paradox: Fire III, Fire IV x3, Paradox, Fire IV x3, Despair, Transpose, Xenoglossy(otherwise Paradox if no Polyglot), Blizzard IV, Thunder III, repeat

Fire III's potency is 260*1.8=468 for the second Fire III so Paradox at 500 unaspected is better to refresh duration of Astral Fire.

Fire IV's potency is still 310*1.8=558 which is higher than 500 so still should be trying to do as many Fire IV as possible.

Paradox's 0 mp cost makes it better than Blizzard IV to follow Despair, but still wanna cast it once for 3 Umbral Hearts.

Paradox also is a good alternative to Scathe due to it's 0 casting time when umbral ice (if need to move and triple cast is down). Transpose and then Paradox spam until you can stay still again.

oh hey it's you again
you're still not level 90
if you want to start a crusade against all the people who hurt your feelings by telling you you're not ready to comment or criticize BLM due to your low level, you will still need to level to 90 and fully understand the class before you can.

All this text just to prove you still have no idea how to play BLM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

oh hey it's you again
you're still not level 90
if you want to start a crusade against all the people who hurt your feelings by telling you you're not ready to comment or criticize BLM due to your low level, you will still need to level to 90 and fully understand the class before you can.

---

I gave a reason why I think my rotation does 29% more damage (7410/5732) can you please provide a reason you believe that it is false?
My feelings aren't hurt. I simply don't understand why they wouldn't do a rotation that mathematically does more damage.

I have a full time job so I don't play as often as some people which is why I am asking on a forum for someone to correct me in a useful manner.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BaconBits

All this text just to prove you still have no idea how to play BLM.

---

What is incorrect about what I said?

"Side note I am 85 right now"

Immediately everything you're saying is invalid, because you're missing both Enhanced Sharpcast, and Paradox, which are incredibly important to your opener and overall rotation.

Like everyone is saying, please for the love of GOD, cap BLM before you say anything, or better yet, join the Balance Discord, share your rotation, and watch them immediately tell you why you're incorrect in every way.

Alright I'll take the bait:

To give an idea why the whole appraoch is wrong, consider spamming Fire III vs Fire I. According to you spamming Fire III is better because 260 > 180 before any modifiers. Clearly you can see the problem now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DubiousDisk

"Side note I am 85 right now"

Immediately everything you're saying is invalid, because you're missing both Enhanced Sharpcast, and Paradox, which are incredibly important to your opener and overall rotation.

Like everyone is saying, please for the love of GOD, cap BLM before you say anything, or better yet, join the Balance Discord, share your rotation, and watch them immediately tell you why you're incorrect in every way.

---

Enhanced Sharpcast gives ability to proc Thundercloud an additional time.
Paradox I listed predicted changes to rotation.
People don't have to be 90 to make a good point. Lots of things I'm talking about I have been doing since Heavensward release. Recent changes just brought me to the forums.

Do you have the discord link?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FurstBlumier

Alright I'll take the bait:

To give an idea why the whole appraoch is wrong, consider spamming Fire III vs Fire I. According to you spamming Fire III is better because 260 > 180 before any modifiers. Clearly you can see the problem now.

---

Pre-60 or when level capped I did/do spam Fire to get Firestarter Procs. You can't really spam Fire III (cast 2 times with Astral Fire boost due to 4k mp cost)

Fire III, Fire III, Fire III
vs
Fire III, Fire, Fire, Fire III, Fire, Fire, Fire

The biggest issue with casting Fire III 3 times would be how short the rotation is... you wouldn't have anything to do in between waiting for MP to come back other than cast Thunder which you cast 10 seconds ago. Also that wasn't counting how many free Fire III's you would get with Firestarter Procs. So yeah Pre-60 spamming Fire after the first Fire III is better than "spamming" Fire III... no doubts 100%.

I am using Fire III to extend the duration of Astral Fire to get an additional Fire IV and dropping Blizzard III in exchange for a spot to cast Xenoglossy. So I feel it is fundamentally different.

If you are talking Spell Speed
I could see an argument for taking 25% longer to cast Fire III that does 17% less damage (Compared to Fire IV), but I am also casting a Fire III instead of a Blizzard III while the Fire III has the 80% boost... and the extra Astral Fire time gives me enough time to cast another Fire IV.

If you are talking MP usage...
I am using more MP, but staying in Astral Fire for longer to cast more spells... not less. And doing Despair with more MP left is wasting that MP.

Fire III, Fire IV, Fire IV, Fire III, Fire IV, Fire IV, Fire IV, Despair
Free, +800, +800, +2000, +1600, +1600, +1600, All
Total 800, 1600, 3600, 5200, 6800, 8400, (1600 left)

What I am hoping for is something more like this:
"Thunder III's DOT is increased by spell speed (up to 15.4%) so you want to stack spell speed anyway and at 2651 spell speed and level 90 Fire IV's casting time is 2.36 at max spell speed. With 15 seconds of Astral Fire.. 15/2.36= 6.35 and you will always have time to cast 5-6 Fire IV no matter what. If you cast 6 Fire IV (2400 MP for 1-3 and 4800 MP for 4-6) then use 2800 MP on Despair (wasting 1800 mp essentially), but it is worth it for 6 Fire IV followed by a Despair. Despair's casting time is 3.0 seconds so you want to Triplecast on last "Fire IV, Fire IV, Despair" to make sure it gets off without issue."
https://www.akhmorning.com/allagan-s...eed-stat-tiers

At that point the only way I could argue would be to look up how much spell speed is possible and how much crit damage you would lose by prioritizing spell speed.
Thank you for giving an example, but could you clarify a bit more?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xander_Diabolos

Side note: I am 85 right now. I imagine the following changes as I get to 90.

Amplifier: Increases chances I get to Xenoglossy when I want to.
Paradox: Fire III, Fire IV x3, Paradox, Fire IV x3, Despair, Transpose, Xenoglossy(otherwise Paradox if no Polyglot), Blizzard IV, Thunder III, repeat

Fire III's potency is 260*1.8=468 for the second Fire III so Paradox at 500 unaspected is better to refresh duration of Astral Fire.

Fire IV's potency is still 310*1.8=558 which is higher than 500 so still should be trying to do as many Fire IV as possible.

Paradox's 0 mp cost makes it better than Blizzard IV to follow Despair, but still wanna cast it once for 3 Umbral Hearts.

Paradox also is a good alternative to Scathe due to it's 0 casting time when umbral ice (if need to move and triple cast is down). Transpose and then Paradox spam until you can stay still again.

---

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...58/unknown.png

Not sure I would use your level 90 rotation either.

EDIT:
Some more error correct even though it has a lot of scuffed math :3

Before you're gonna say "oh but my rotation flexes Xenoglossy instead of paradox"

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...16/unknown.png

Fire deals 180 potency over a 2.5s cast, which is 72 per second. However, it can proc Firestarter 40% of the time, which, even when simply thrown in Astral rather than used to swap, is 260 over 2.5s. If you do a weighted average you see that Fire has an actual potency per second of 78.4.

Fire III deals 260 potency over a 3.5s cast, which is 74.3 per second.

This isn't even getting into the problem of Fire III consuming over twice the MP of Fire. If you're going to refresh Astral, you should always do it with Fire, not Fire III. There are also some issues with never using Blizzard III but they're less egregious than this mistake.

Alright fuck it I'm bored enough at work to bite.

Let's just assume(like you are)that no buffs are in play minus passive buffs from BLM itself and include in:
Astral fire: halves ice spells cast time at 3 stacks
Umbral ice: halves fire spells cast time at 3 stacks
First and foremost, you can get 6 Fire IVs in the standard rotation and the despair, you're assuming that people despair at 6k mana(800+800+800+1600 for the four Fire IVs + the rest for despair) which is just flat out wrong.

Alright second cast times. Okay so standard rotation vs OP: the post assumes we're coming in from a blizzard 4 and not standstill with a 2.5gcd across the board.

Fire3
Standard: 1.75s cast
OP: 3.5s cast(because OP never gets 3 umbral ice stacks with transpose)

Fire IV x2 for both: same values(5s)

Astral fire refresh
Standard: N/A triplecast + Fire IV(2.5s recast)
OP: 3.5(Fire 3)

Fire + despair
Standard: Fire IV + despair(2gcds = 5s)
OP: Fire IV x3, despair (4 gcds= 10s)

Blizzard
Standard: Blizzard 3 + Blizzard 4(1.75s+2.5s=4.25s)
OP: Transpose + 2x Blizzard 4s or paradox/xenoglossy (5s total)

Thunder:same values(2.5s)

Total time spent before repeat
Standard: 21 seconds
OP: 29.5 seconds

For every 3 OP rotations, we have 4 standards

Take P1s as the golden dummy fight since theres absolutely 0 downtime at hmm I think 8:30 is pretty generous for kill time, that's 510s. Standard as listed would be 24.28 repeats, OP would have 17.28, just toss out the decimals and go with 24 standard vs 17 OP.

Now lets put in OPs calculated potencies and multiply by the number of repeats.

Standard: 5732 x 24 = 137,568
OP: 7410 x 17 = 125,970

Look at that, OP scuffed standard rotation even loses out versus the rotation they posted. OP can't even compare both because the proposed standard has 8.5 seconds left, that's 3 full gcds the OP is just willfully cutting out.

Please go back to the drawing board and come back when you have something that works, otherwise learn the standard opener, your level 90 parties will thank you later.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xander_Diabolos

Enhanced Sharpcast gives ability to proc Thundercloud an additional time.
Paradox I listed predicted changes to rotation.
People don't have to be 90 to make a good point. Lots of things I'm talking about I have been doing since Heavensward release. Recent changes just brought me to the forums.

Do you have the discord link?

---

So... funny thing happened... I joined Discord and found this...
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...h.n62znhrbg8uc

Under "Intermediate" Under "Double Paradox" includes not only using "Transpose" to get MP back, but also using it to chance proc for Firestarter.
"Standard + 3xF4 Double Transpose F3P [N76]" Is more what I was looking at. In fact the document outlines everything I have been saying with additional ideas.
Transpose, Sharpcast, Paradox is a good addition to guarantee a Firestarter proc... but will have to do some math to verify which way I like better.

I do find it funny though it goes from "watch them immediately tell you why you're incorrect in every way" and "everything you're saying is invalid" to "Intermediate Non-Standard BLM Guide".

Why are you saying anything if you're not capped at 90. The whole reason why Fire IV was buffed to 310 is because Paradox was too close of Fire IV DPS and Paradox Mage became a thing. Paradox Mage is a meme that shouldn't exist like Dragon Kick spam Monk right now.

You shouldn't calc things as pure potency but the potency per second.

310 *1.8 from Astral Fire is 558 Potency for 2.8s. 199.28 PPS.
500 Potency from Paradox in a 2.5s is 200 PPS.

With BiS Spellspeed
558 Potency for Fire IV in 2.47s = 225.91 PPS
500 Potency from Paradox under 2.2s is 227.27 PPS

Back in ShB, I recalled people skipping Blizzard IV because Fire I wasn't great but because it turns into a spell that deals better damage than Fire IV in which, can be used in both your form, you probably should stick to use Fire I until you're level 90.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xander_Diabolos

So... funny thing happened... I joined Discord and found this...
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...h.n62znhrbg8uc

Under "Intermediate" Under "Double Paradox" includes not only using "Transpose" to get MP back, but also using it to chance proc for Firestarter.
"Standard + 3xF4 Double Transpose F3P [N76]" Is more what I was looking at. In fact the document outlines everything I have been saying with additional ideas.
Transpose, Sharpcast, Paradox is a good addition to guarantee a Firestarter proc... but will have to do some math to verify which way I like better.

I do find it funny though it goes from "watch them immediately tell you why you're incorrect in every way" and "everything you're saying is invalid" to "Intermediate Non-Standard BLM Guide".

---

Replacing Blizzard III with Transpose is a sometimes food. In 6.0 it gave you a very marginal bonus in exchange for being extremely MP tick sensitive, restricting your movement even more than normal, and requiring you to have several instant cast procs lined up in order to make sure you didn't clip any GCDs. (Doing hardcast Despair into Transpose into umbral Paradox, for instance, slows you down by the ~0.7s of Transpose's animation). As of 6.08, in which Fire IV, Fire III, and Blizzard III have all been buffed, using Transpose instead of Blizzard III to enter Umbral Ice is less of a marginal gain, and might not be one at all.

Like I said, the really worrying thing about your gameplay is that you're apparently hardcasting Fire III in the middle of your astral cycle. That's an extremely bad idea, even if you're defraying its cost with your last umbral heart.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aikaal

Why are you saying anything if you're not capped at 90. The whole reason why Fire IV was buffed to 310 is because Paradox was too close of Fire IV DPS and Paradox Mage became a thing. Paradox Mage is a meme that shouldn't exist like Dragon Kick spam Monk right now.

You shouldn't calc things as pure potency but the potency per second.

310 *1.8 from Astral Fire is 558 Potency for 2.8s. 199.28 PPS.
500 Potency from Paradox in a 2.5s is 200 PPS.

With BiS Spellspeed
558 Potency for Fire IV in 2.47s = 225.91 PPS
500 Potency from Paradox under 2.2s is 227.27 PPS

Back in ShB, I recalled people skipping Blizzard IV because Fire I wasn't great but because it turns into a spell that deals better damage than Fire IV in which, can be used in both your form, you probably should stick to use Fire I until you're level 90.

---

Astral Fire isn't a spell... Fire IV is, but I know what you mean.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...J2Sykbrw/edit#
I found a good source for PPS.

High level BLM concepts has... (I think they added in casting frames)
Xenoglossy = 304 PPS
Despair = 197.42 PPS
Fire IV (AF) = 192.41 PPS
Paradox (AF) = 192.31 PPS
Fire III (AF3) = 187.2 PPS
Fire = 119.23 PPS
Fire III (UI3) = 72.8 PPS
Blizzard III (AF3) = 72.8 PPS
I can see potential Fire to refresh AF3 if it means I get another Fire IV in.

Cast Order: Fire III, Fire IV, Fire IV, Fire III, Fire IV, Fire IV, Fire IV, Despair
Total Potency: 4130
Total Time: 20.5
201 PPS

Cast Order: Fire III, Fire IV, Fire IV, Fire IV, Fire, Fire IV, Fire IV, Fire IV, Despair
Total Potency: 4544
Total Time: 22.3
203 PPS

With Fire III having higher PPS than Fire... I figured it would be better, but it does appear to be slightly higher with fire due to the additional MP to cast another Fire IV before refreshing astral fire. The reason I am looking into it before I am 90 is so I know how to do things when I am 90.

I do still like my Transpose vs Blizzard III idea since Transpose is still off global cooldown and only 72.8 PPS

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tsunari96

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...58/unknown.png

Not sure I would use your level 90 rotation either.

EDIT:
Some more error correct even though it has a lot of scuffed math :3

Before you're gonna say "oh but my rotation flexes Xenoglossy instead of paradox"

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...16/unknown.png

---

I just noticed something... Is the reason people do Blizzard III to save 1 second on Fire III cast to start the rotation again? Was looking at the first Fire III of the rotation on both and it got confusing on different PPS until I looked up Umbral Ice again. I could use swift cast to get rid of that annoying Fire III cast timer instead of Blizzard III. If you do look after Despair Left (318.5) vs Right (306.2) at 12.3 difference and then again at the end (299.8) vs (293.5) there is only 6.3 difference. So it made up some damage at the end. By removing Blizzard III still has higher DPS as long as you can remove the initial Fire III casting time issue (swiftcast or triple cast).

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...J2Sykbrw/edit#
I did find some stuff in here that flexes "Sharpcast Paradox" that essentially does the same thing as Blizzard III as well in terms putting Fire III at 2.5 seconds by proc'ing Firestarter. Since this can be done from Astral Fire I you could technically "Transpose, Sharpcast, Paradox, Fire III" vs doing Blizzard III (500 potency paradox vs 260 Blizzard III). Then do transpose again after Despair to get MP back while doing Thunder/Xenoglossy.

Seems like it is a better rotation to remove Blizzard III due to its low PPS, but I think I went the wrong way to do it and sacrificed the Fire III casting time when trying to and potentially hurt my damage over time without realizing it.
Will have to do some looking into Sharpcast Thunderstorm to make sure I don't loose too much from that by doing "Transpose Sharpcast Paradox".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xander_Diabolos

I just noticed something... Is the reason people do Blizzard III to save 1 second on Fire III cast to start the rotation again?

---

This chart is scuffed but enough to explain what's happening OUTSIDE of simple chain of GCD casting. When the BLM has 3 stacks of one element, the next opposite element spell has significantly less cast time. and this exact 1 second cast allows BLM to minimize the loss of DPS caused by what's commonly known as "GCD clip."

On the left chart, it shows FIII recast time is 2.33s. However, the actual cast time is 1.69s because having 3 umbral stack significantly reduces the time you spend on casting. In other words, you would only spend 1.69s to cast a spell and have 0.64s of "free time" until you can cast next spell. This little wiggle room allows BLM to have a guaranteed slot to use an OGCD.

On the right chart, which is your rotation, does exactly opposite because default FIII cast time is 3.26s while your recast time is 2.33s. This means you're spending longer time casting FIII than you should. That's right, you're spending 0.93s longer. even if you could have casted FIV.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...52/unknown.png

This means every 2~3 rotations repeated, you lost a cast of FIV and this is accumulative. By the nature of BLM, this is heavily consequential and the gap between standard opener and your proposed opener widens more and more.

This gap widens even more when you want to "weave in" OGCD like triple cast. In a super simplified manner, when considering this...

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...00/unknown.png

As you can see this in image, you are stuck at Triplecast animation and its delay causes you to wait even longer until you can cast FIV. Unlike that, the 1.69s FIII allows you to use Triplecast with minimized delay to the point it can be negligible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xander_Diabolos

I did find some stuff in here that flexes "Sharpcast Paradox" that essentially does the same thing as Blizzard III as well in terms putting Fire III at 2.5 seconds by proc'ing Firestarter. Since this can be done from Astral Fire I you could technically "Transpose, Sharpcast, Paradox, Fire III" vs doing Blizzard III (500 potency paradox vs 260 Blizzard III). Then do transpose again after Despair to get MP back while doing Thunder/Xenoglossy.

---

It doesn't work as nicely as you think because, once again, your rotation does not have any room to use OGCD without forcing a delay due to OGCD animation lock. Of course, you can use xenoglossy or procced Thunder/FIII to weave an OGCD but you must understand that standard opener can do that as well. It's like comparing a gaining an advantage vs already having an advantage AND gain another. it's 0/+1 vs +1/+1.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xander_Diabolos

So I am told over and over that I am doing things wrong as Black Mage, but based on my understanding on how things work my way actually works better.

Other people: Fire III, Fire IV x2, Triple Cast, Fire IV x2, Despair, Blizzard III, Blizzard IV, Thunder III, repeat

---

Well there's you're problem, that's not how the job is actually played. If you're comparing your crap rotation to a crap rotation (and holy crap your assumptions are offbase) you won't come out with valid results.

First there's no mention of time in your analysis, and that means you're missing the 'ps' part of 'dps.'

So here's a better example of where you go wrong. A Caveat for the third rotation: That's just me making something off the top of my head, the no-brain rotation, the 'I don't play this job but this seems legitimate' rotation, the 'I'm sure BLMs will go on into detail about better practices but this is fine enough to make my point' rotation.

https://i.imgur.com/5RvkSP9.png

Notice I'm neglecting the prepull blizzard III->Blizzard IV to start things off to get your three umbral hearts. That's common to all three, won't make a difference. I'm also not including Magick and Mend or Enochian because that's a common multiplier and adding it won't help with comparisons anyways. Also not weighing in with the Ice phase Paradox, cause that's like... not salient to the core points I need to make.

In almost the same time as you I've gotten in 1300 more potency than you. So that's gains. But to make matters worse, because you take 4.9 more seconds to get through your rotation than the 'bad strawman' rotation you're trying to compare to, while you get in more potency overall, your potency per second is actually 4 pps less than the rotation you're trying to say is worse! You're actually doing worse than the bad strawman rotation you're trying to present!

Now, before Paradox, in the third rotation you'd replace the Paradox with Fire I and that'd reduce the potency by 176 and the overall pps by around 6, but that's still WAYYYYYYYYY the hell ahead of what you've presented. So this isn't even a 'your rotation needs to be level 90 to git gud' issue it's 'your rotation isn't gud on its face' issue.

And here's the worst part: I don't think my rotation is optimal. It's hastily thrown together, has nothing close to optimization tricks or any of the voodoo BLM optimizers do or anything. I'm not at all knowledgeable in that regard.

But holy crap it takes less than 30 seconds to cobble together a rotation better than.... this display.

I skimmed so I do not know if it was mentioned, however,

Going Despair > Transpose > Paradox > Blizzard 4 only puts you in UI2, not UI3, so you would need to cast Blizzard or Blizzard 3 to get to UI3 so that when you swap to AF, you will gain the Paradox Stack. If you have to use a GCD to get to UI, why not just Blizzard 3 at the start.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xander_Diabolos

So... funny thing happened... I joined Discord and found this...
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...h.n62znhrbg8uc

Under "Intermediate" Under "Double Paradox" includes not only using "Transpose" to get MP back, but also using it to chance proc for Firestarter.
"Standard + 3xF4 Double Transpose F3P [N76]" Is more what I was looking at. In fact the document outlines everything I have been saying with additional ideas.
Transpose, Sharpcast, Paradox is a good addition to guarantee a Firestarter proc... but will have to do some math to verify which way I like better.

I do find it funny though it goes from "watch them immediately tell you why you're incorrect in every way" and "everything you're saying is invalid" to "Intermediate Non-Standard BLM Guide".

---

Im not pro at blm at all, however:

The purpose of using transpose lines is to try to cut weaker spells out of rotation (Read: Ice spells). However, what you propose, especially when not taking into account existence of paradox, can be summed up with "I like this spell animation".
Fire 3 is NOT a spell you spam. Its a spell that you use to either shift to fire, when you are doing normal lines, or to be sharped in fire to jump to AF3 without losing potency in ice phase.

Hell, look at any guide for lvl 80, there is no paradox in those, and there are NO rotations that involve overusing fire 3, because its not the ability that fills that purpose, F4 is, with F1 refresh.

Its like saying "Oh you know, i spam ice spells because numbers are same but it doesn't use mana", without taking in account other factors.

Also id imagine people that are on balance have pretty good math skills and test their stuff before releasing them into the wild.

Here's pretty good blm optimisation overview, that explains transpose lines pretty nicely https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oitfdOPiqpw
---
Funny how title reads "people are playing blm wrong", even tho its base (or standard i guess) rotation is probably what developers had intended for job. And what it was for 2 expansions already. That is to say, its good to have nice skill ceiling like this.

I stopped reading when they suggested most of us were only casting 4 Fire IVs in our rotation.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/2Wim5...NpuS/giphy.gif

No your playing blm wrong lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

oh hey it's you again
you're still not level 90

---

this is gold, thanks for making my day :P

yes OP pls lvl cap b4 u formulate any opinions, i seriously doubt that all the number crunchers that this game has have overlooked something u did not

there r niche optimal rotations for the in between levels (81-89 in ur example), like im pretty sure a lvl72 warrior would actually want to do CDH nascent chaos even on one target as opposed to just a simple fell cleave, this most certainly does not apply at 80+

To quote a doctor I know,

https://i.redd.it/e8qwz7z7gkbz.jpg

Hey all,

Thanks for any helpful info. I think maybe the title was too insulting and caused people to get defensive. Hit 90 yesterday and this is what I tested out based on the results of the discussion. Opener doesn't look too different from most. Didn't include INT drink since I play too casually to get into high end raids. I did regret putting Blizzard III in opener, but it was the only way to get Paradox(Firestarter) vs Fire after the opener and reduce Fire III's casting. (I could also have included sharpcast Fire in the opener to get it, but would prefer not to do that either since you don't have enough mana to use it effectively without Umbral hearts)

Opener:
Fire III, Thunder III, Triplecast, Fire IV, Ley Lines, Fire IV, Amplifier, Fire IV, Swiftcast, Fire IV, Triplecast, Despair, Manafont, Fire IV, Despair, Blizzard III, Xenoglossy, Blizzard IV, Thunder III

After the opener I sharpcast Paradox to make the next Fire III instant cast which allows you to weave in triple cast/amplifier/leylines/manafont similar to how it was done in opener 120 seconds after. I might have to add a little more spell speed as I was sometimes having issues with Firestarter wearing off (30 seconds after Paradox) before I got back to my Fire III (especially if I had to Xenoglossy twice to wait for mana before insta-casting Fire III again).

After Opener:
Fire III, Fire IV x3, Sharpcast, Paradox, Fire IV x3, Despair, Transpose, Xenoglossy (once or twice depending on mp ticks), Blizzard IV, Thunder III
Still debating on Transposing after Thunder III to get more damage on Fire III which is instant cast and 0 mp regardless.

Benefits: Drop the low PPS Blizzard III after opener, have a spot to cast Xenoglossy every 30 seconds, Fire III becomes instant speed meaning you can move while casting it and don't have to clip to triplecast after the opener.

Negatives: Clipping Transpose, Clipping Sharpcast (when not doing triplecast), Using Sharpcast on Paradox means you can't Sharpcast Thunder III and guarantee to not hardcast it (I figure with 10 ticks and 10% chance each tick... most of the time you will not need to anyway), You lose out on a second Paradox by not casting Blizzard III (requires 3 Umbral hearts and Umbral ice), Blizzard IV is still low PPS but it has to happen in order to get Umbral hearts for longer Astral Fire phase.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xander_Diabolos

Fire III, Thunder III, Triplecast, Fire IV, Ley Lines, F...

---

Why are you waiting so long to get Ley Lines down?

Quote:

---

Fire III, Fire IV x3, Sharpcast, Paradox, Fire IV x3, Despair, Transpose, X....

---

Oh, you're still using Transpose.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xander_Diabolos

After Opener:
Fire III, Fire IV x3, Sharpcast, Paradox, Fire IV x3, Despair, Transpose, Xenoglossy (once or twice depending on mp ticks), Blizzard IV, Thunder III
Still debating on Transposing after Thunder III to get more damage on Fire III which is instant cast and 0 mp regardless.

Benefits: Drop the low PPS Blizzard III after opener, have a spot to cast Xenoglossy every 30 seconds, Fire III becomes instant speed meaning you can move while casting it and don't have to clip to triplecast after the opener.

Negatives: Clipping Transpose, Clipping Sharpcast (when not doing triplecast), Using Sharpcast on Paradox means you can't Sharpcast Thunder III and guarantee to not hardcast it (I figure with 10 ticks and 10% chance each tick... most of the time you will not need to anyway), You lose out on a second Paradox by not casting Blizzard III (requires 3 Umbral hearts and Umbral ice), Blizzard IV is still low PPS but it has to happen in order to get Umbral hearts for longer Astral Fire phase.

---

You aren't guaranteed to hit max MP after only 3 GCDs in UI1, which means you do less damage in AF as you cannot cast either a despair or you have to forgo a Fire 4.

If you run the calcs, doing your 'after opener' ends u as less PPS than the standard rotation, and this doesn't include Thunder 3 in the standard rotation, of which, if used under Thundercloud, is an effective 400 potency ontop of the normal Thunder 3 potency, of which the standard rotation will hit that every time, whereas yours does not (for actual numbers, standard gives 202.2 PPS and yours does 198.6 PPS, this includes 1 full Thundercloud Thunder 3 in each one, I used my cast times which has a base of 2.41 at my spell speed I also added a total of 1 second to the clipped GCDs for the Transpose and Sharpcast combined, I suspect it should be higher, however that would only hurt your rotation more).

The rotation just does not work at all and does less damage than the standard one. The maths has already been done by Black Mage players far far better at it than me and they would have considered every avenue. Black Mage is not a hard job to grasp, so the maths behind it is really easy which makes it even easier to debunk this failed attempt at a rotation.

... this looks so scuffed, your OGCDs are misaligned and you're not getting the most use out of them. For anyone wondering, the current opener and rota look like this

Fire 3 Opener: Prepull Sharpcast and F3 || T3 > Triplecast +F4 +Pot > F4 +Amplifier +Ley Lines > F4 +Swift > F4 +Triplecast > Despair +Manafont > F4 +Sharpcast > Despair > B3 > Xenoglossy > Paradox > B4 > T3

Which likely means that right after that opener, you'd land in the bolded part of this rotation below, and then loop around over and over, til everything is off cooldown for you to do your Opener again

B3 > B4 > T3 > (after opener) Paradox > F3 > F4 > F4 > F4 > Paradox > F4 > F4 > F4 > Despair

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xander_Diabolos

After Opener:
Fire III, Fire IV x3, Sharpcast, Paradox, Fire IV x3, Despair, Transpose, Xenoglossy (once or twice depending on mp ticks), Blizzard IV, Thunder III
Still debating on Transposing after Thunder III to get more damage on Fire III which is instant cast and 0 mp regardless.

Benefits: Drop the low PPS Blizzard III after opener, have a spot to cast Xenoglossy every 30 seconds, Fire III becomes instant speed meaning you can move while casting it and don't have to clip to triplecast after the opener.

Negatives: Clipping Transpose, Clipping Sharpcast (when not doing triplecast), Using Sharpcast on Paradox means you can't Sharpcast Thunder III and guarantee to not hardcast it (I figure with 10 ticks and 10% chance each tick... most of the time you will not need to anyway), You lose out on a second Paradox by not casting Blizzard III (requires 3 Umbral hearts and Umbral ice), Blizzard IV is still low PPS but it has to happen in order to get Umbral hearts for longer Astral Fire phase.

---

This is getting there, but the clips are what will hold you back. Assuming 0.7s clip per non instant/element swap, it's about a 1.4s time loss and more if you transpose after T3. Some adjustments that could help would be shifting the Xeno to be just after Despair in order to not clip Transpose, and using your fire gained paradox as an instant before your transpose out of ice.
But honestly, the main thing you need to know is that the transpose lines are situational - you may or may not be able to go into them based off however many instants and procs you have. and, that some lines are only few percent potency gains over standard, immediately losing them if you clip casts at all. You should only really start considering it once you're 100% confident on standard - near 100% or 99 uptime. And, standard makes it that much easier to do so, with the extra xenoglossies/guaranteed t3p's available for movement. An easy trick you *can* start using even during standard play though, is transposing out of an instant in ice into F3 proc - that's about 182 more potency than normal. Have you rechecked the non-standard BLM guide? I know it was linked or mentioned earlier in the thread, that doc explains a lot of the ideas more concisely and thoroughly than I could in a forum post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hasrat

Why are you waiting so long to get Ley Lines down?

---

This is actually standard, using leylines after a triplecast instant allows you to make full use of it without clipping, and because you can precast F3 only really waits you 2 GCDS before using it. Pre-pull leylines has uses in some fights though, like when a mechanic within the first 30 seconds or at future use times would force you out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by catofsnake

Pre-pull leylines has uses in some fights though, like when a mechanic within the first 30 seconds or at future use times would force you out.

---

Something that brings to mind moving your ley-lines around depending on mechanics, is the beginning of P1S. Within the first 30 secs you go from hugging Eric’s butt, to standing in the center for heals after the raidwide, to going to your clock spot. I’d imagine it would be more beneficial to push leylines into your prepull then, to get the most use out of it?

Then again no one in my group plays BLM, we’ve got two smns instead, so I personally wouldn’t know/havent seen what the response to that would be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MilkieTea

Something that brings to mind moving your ley-lines around depending on mechanics, is the beginning of P1S. Within the first 30 secs you go from hugging Eric’s butt, to standing in the center for heals after the raidwide, to going to your clock spot. I’d imagine it would be more beneficial to push leylines into your prepull then, to get the most use out of it?

Then again no one in my group plays BLM, we’ve got two smns instead, so I personally wouldn’t know/havent seen what the response to that would be.

---

assuming you're talking about having to move for the first chains of companionship/loneliness, you should preposition yourself on your marker and drop your leylines there, healers adjust
that's how most black mage gameplay is like, you don't move even if you take damage and are outside aoe heal range

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

assuming you're talking about having to move for the first chains of companionship/loneliness, you should preposition yourself on your marker and drop your leylines there, healers adjust
that's how most black mage gameplay is like, you don't move even if you take damage and are outside aoe heal range

---

Hm, makes sense. I’m not one for turret gameplay, myself, so I never take BLM into higher end content, and my group sticks to the safe side of things with having extra rezzes available if necessary etc etc, so I’ve never gotten the chance to see how BLMs respond to choreographed raidwides.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by catofsnake

This is actually standard, using leylines after a triplecast instant allows you to make full use of it without clipping, and because you can precast F3 only really waits you 2 GCDS before using it. Pre-pull leylines has uses in some fights though, like when a mechanic within the first 30 seconds or at future use times would force you out.

---

This is sensible... but nothing about this thread suggests we're looking for savage-level efficiency here.

Admittedly what probably throws me off more than that, tho, is that I hadn't realized folks had started just opening straight with a short fire phase.

The opener hasn’t really changed since last tier aside from adding in a second triple cast. Only fight I can remember doing pre pull leylines is e12s, so it lines up better with shiva/titan mechs.

Opener used to be sharp -12s, f3 -3 seconds, t3>f4>triple>f4>pot>f4>Leylines>f4>swift>despair>font>f4>despair>b3>sharp>t3>b4. Now you switch last t3 for paradox. I wouldn’t use xeno in the opener, I’d save it for mechs. Holding that xeno will give you a weave window for triple if you held it in the opener (lines up with fireplume movement in p3s and disease/tether swapping in p4s)

low effort bait didnt even level ur job to 90(takes a handful of dungeon runs to do)

The best part about this thread is that it attracted all the BLM mains which has helped me learn to perfect the opener.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DubiousDisk

The best part about this thread is that it attracted all the BLM mains which has helped me learn to perfect the opener.

---

Give a man a fish, and he'll have a fish. Teach a man to fish but do so in a terrible way and then lock him in a room with fishing professionals and they'll start teaching everyone in a five mile radius how to fish.