Tanking question

So, I was in a Duty (Ala Mhigo) and was told to "stop spinning the boss". I suppose that's a reasonable request, but I died early on, and didn't trust the healer, so what was "spinning" to whomever made the request, was just "not standing in the bad stuff" to me.

Was I being unreasonable? How much should I be trusting the healer?

Also, who has time to type anything during a fight? I mean, sure, maybe some DPS, but as a tank, I've got a lot of stuff going on, and those cooldowns aren't as slow as they feel against a boss.

It's entirely reasonable to move out of the AoE markers, even if you trust the healer, you don't want to take unnecessary damage as that means you'll need less healing, but try to move back to where you were before asap, that's usually what DPS will anticipate.
You can move as soon as the marker disappears, so reposition and you will usually be back in the front by the time the boss has finished using it's attack, and so it shouldn't, in most cases, turn at all.

Spinning the boss effects the melee potency positional, if you're dying from a Healer slacking on their job, that's not really your problem, and spinning the boss won't help to that measure, or you're doing the AI exploit. At the time it could be you, I can't really say much without evidence.

Just move back to your previous spot after you move out of the aoe so the positional people will be happy, most reasonable people will see that you're trying to avoid damage especially if the healer is underperforming

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

if you're dying from a Healer slacking on their job, that's not really your problem

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That can be a very elitist way to look at the situation. Maybe the healer is new to the game, maybe they're new to healing or new to their job. Maybe they just rearranged their keybinds and are just getting used to them.

Saying "not my problem" isn't going to help matters. Maybe instead of encouraging the "you suck, I'm great" mentality, you should encourage him to talk to his healer and figure out why the healer is struggling and figure out a work around together.

And don't give me the "if you can't handle wall to wall then you shouldn't be there" schtick. Slowing down to accommodate another party member isn't going to kill you. Most runs take between 15 - 25 mins depending on the dungeon and comfort level of the group. You signed up for this. If your run takes 20 mins instead of 15 it's really not the end of the world.

OP isn't positioning himself back in front of the boss after a mechanic; which likely means he's not very practiced himself. It might not all be the healers fault.

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Originally Posted by EzekielBook

So, I was in a Duty (Ala Mhigo) and was told to "stop spinning the boss". I suppose that's a reasonable request, but I died early on, and didn't trust the healer, so what was "spinning" to whomever made the request, was just "not standing in the bad stuff" to me.

Was I being unreasonable? How much should I be trusting the healer?

Also, who has time to type anything during a fight? I mean, sure, maybe some DPS, but as a tank, I've got a lot of stuff going on, and those cooldowns aren't as slow as they feel against a boss.

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Spinning the boss makes it harder for melee DPS to use their positionals (some attacks do more damage if they hit the boss from the rear and flank). Spinning the boss has nothing to do with healers, although you do want to move out of AoEs while keeping the boss roughly in the same spot as much as possible.

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

That can be a very elitist way to look at the situation.

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Is it though? If you're still learning how to play the game by 70-80+ after starting new at Level 1, then expect questions who are you learning from, specially the mentors 99% of them have no clue about. If you're new buying a level skip, expect hostility from players.

It feels very much stop enabling incompetence, like a Sage doing Heals only when their whole tool kit is based on doing DPS for heals, or at level 90 and Whms/Asts still spamming Cure 1-2 running out of MP too quickly, or a Sch spamming Physicks. The whole high level dungeon design is wall pull the mobs, tanks/healers have an abundance of tool kits, if players refuse to learn their job, refuse to DPS on Healer, then stop enabling their ridiculous behaviour, it's exactly the problem why content keeps getting easier, it's asinine.

No, do not spin bosses.
Yes, get out of AOEs.

This is simple stuff I am pretty sure Hall of the Novice teaches you.

It's easy to get out of AOEs without spinning bosses. Typically you just get right back to where you were before. Honestly if you need to, seriously, put a marker down on the space opposite to where the entrance is, that way you can remember to go back to that spot every time.

You can spin bosses in bozja because positionals don't matter there. I do it all the time to the big mammoth and dinosaur fate bosses. It's fun! Try to find that sweet spot in the dead center, hit sprint, then run in circles around it to make it spin as fast as possible.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

No, do not spin bosses.
Yes, get out of AOEs.

This is simple stuff I am pretty sure Hall of the Novice teaches you.

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It doesn't teach you to not spin bosses, nor does it mention anything about dps positionals being a thing. I remember when I first started playing I use to spin bosses a lot up to the mid-level ARR dungeons, mainly because it was fun and I thought it might make me harder to hit if I was a moving target.

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Originally Posted by Sacred-Oblivion

It doesn't teach you to not spin bosses, nor does it mention anything about dps positionals being a thing. I remember when I first started playing I use to spin bosses a lot up to the mid-level ARR dungeons, mainly because it was fun and I thought it might make me harder to hit if I was a moving target.

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It's an MMO thing for the most part, mostly because of tank busters and cleaves. An easy mistake to make for new player tanks (or players of any role), sure, but if it's not their first MMO it should be common sense. FF XI was my first true MMO experience, and I would spin my enemies a lot. It wasn't until some random Bard sat me down to teach me some combat basics and basically said "Stop that. Stand still and take it" that my methods changed. I stopped spinning everything after that. Was definitely a good thing too since I ended up becoming a tank much later on.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

Is it though? If you're still learning how to play the game by 70-80+ after starting new at Level 1, then expect questions who are you learning from, specially the mentors 99% of them have no clue about. If you're new buying a level skip, expect hostility from players.

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If I level a Dragoon from 1-70 and then pick up Sage, am I supposed to know how to heal effectively right away?

This isn't a player problem, it's a game design problem. It allows players to pick up new roles and jobs at a higher level without having to go through the learning experience to get there.

This isn't necessarily a "get good" situation.

Also, the exact same thing could be said about our OP here. He's asking about basic tanking 101 questions after doing a L70+ dungeon.

You're right about having a responsibility to learn the jobs and roles, but you really shouldn't be jumping to conclusions about a player's experience just because they're on a higher level character.

Edit: A work around for this in the future could be to have a system in place that prevents you from unlocking a new job unless you already have another job of the same role at the unlock level requirement. (Ie. Must have a healer at L70 to unlock Sage)

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Originally Posted by Sacred-Oblivion

You can spin bosses in bozja because positionals don't matter there. I do it all the time to the big mammoth and dinosaur fate bosses. It's fun! Try to find that sweet spot in the dead center, hit sprint, then run in circles around it to make it spin as fast as possible.

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Lol. Until it does a cone AoE and wipes half your dps and healers. >_<

Cleaves and frontal cones are a very elegant way to teach tanks to face bosses away from their friends and keep them that way. Cleaves and frontal cones are very common in ARR, somewhat common in HW, and quite rare in everything beyond. Cleaves and frontal cones dovetailed very nicely with positionals. These mechanics were not vestigial when they were discarded, so it's only natural that bizarre situations like this creep in eventually.

Bring back cleaves, bring back threat.

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

If I level a Dragoon from 1-70 and then pick up Sage, am I supposed to know how to heal effectively right away?

This isn't a player problem, it's a game design problem. It allows players to pick up new roles and jobs at a higher level without having to go through the learning experience to get there.

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If you're going straight into group content, yes.

Also, you don't need firsthand experience if people stopped staring at their hotbars they could learn a thing or two from looking at others, but that's wishful thinking I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

Edit: A work around for this in the future could be to have a system in place that prevents you from unlocking a new job unless you already have another job of the same role at the unlock level requirement. (Ie. Must have a healer at L70 to unlock Sage)

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That's honestly the best solution. SE has made exp gains 1.5x faster after EW patch and can reduce the issue.

FFXI solution was make every new job start level 1, if you're playing the motive doing "what you want", the game would punish including the players.

My solution learning a new Healer, do dungeons with trusts.

DPS? Dummy

Tank? Trusts/Dummy.

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

Edit: A work around for this in the future could be to have a system in place that prevents you from unlocking a new job unless you already have another job of the same role at the unlock level requirement. (Ie. Must have a healer at L70 to unlock Sage)

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It is a bad solution IMO. Let's say you want to play GNB you have to level WAR or PLD which outside of your liking.. but you are forced to play with it.. It will drastically reduce player enjoyment.

Current dungeons easy and forgiving enough to figure out what to do as tank or healer.. easy to learn from your mistakes, most players in game patient and friendly if you tell them you are new at your job or dungeon.. all you have to do test a few skills on dummy and read skill tooltips, arrange your hot bar accordingly for your priority and adjust hotbar in dungeon.

Edit: +1 Undeadfire's suggestion, trust dungeons easiest way to figure out.

And yet we continually have posts like this where neither the tank or healer were very good in their dungeon. Having that leveling experience would help with this.

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

And yet we continually have posts like this where neither the tank or healer were very good in their dungeon. Having that leveling experience would help with this.

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What is wrong with post? OP trying to learn what he is doing wrong (or if he is doing anything wrong) and he is asking question in Tank forum.. seems normal to me.
I don't understand meaning of "good in dungeon".. it might be OPs first time in dungeon and not familiar with mechanics.. or he is not comfortable with tanking at the moment but practicing.

Duty finder can bring any kind of player experienced or new.. but if you are seeking perfect dungeon run / speed run or something.. PF better option IMO.

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

And yet we continually have posts like this where neither the tank or healer were very good in their dungeon. Having that leveling experience would help with this.

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I don't think it'd work this way, especially when someone's already playing something they don't want to. Your suggestion would make the issue of bad tanks/healers a bit worse. They'll just do enough to get by (if anything at all beyond keeping the enemies on them and some people alive, maybe not even that) until they get to the job they actually want to play. There's so many ways to level and you better believe that they will take the easiest possible route to get to where they actually want to go. Either way it's definitely not a good idea. Some jobs are already level locked. That's all the work that they should have to put into unlocking them.