Don't buff PLD dmg, buff PLD Enmity

So I've been playing PLD in some shape or form since 1.0 when I had to build it myself with various skills from other classes.

Right now, as far as tanking is concerned, PLD is broken in multi tank situations. Unless you buff our dmg to be identical to 2h output, this won't change. Any other tank will pull aggro off a pld unless the pld taunts it back. I'm not sure how your developers haven't figured out that this is essentially due to 2h weapons being able to fire off abilities at the same speed as 1h. You can see it in any dungeon with 2 tanks. Same opener, toss and main combo, or toss and main aoe, warrior, gunbreaker and drk will have aggro every time.

Make us the kings of aggro, or just give us switfcast raise so we actually have some real utility in anything other than 4 man content.

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Originally Posted by Mishakai

So I've been playing PLD in some shape or form since 1.0 when I had to build it myself with various skills from other classes.

Right now, as far as tanking is concerned, PLD is broken in multi tank situations. Unless you buff our dmg to be identical to 2h output, this won't change. Any other tank will pull aggro off a pld unless the pld taunts it back. I'm not sure how your developers haven't figured out that this is essentially due to 2h weapons being able to fire off abilities at the same speed as 1h. You can see it in any dungeon with 2 tanks. Same opener, toss and main combo, or toss and main aoe, warrior, gunbreaker and drk will have aggro every time.

Make us the kings of aggro, or just give us switfcast raise so we actually have some real utility in anything other than 4 man content.

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What 8-man content are you coming into that your co-tank is ripping aggro off you?

But why not just buff the damage? Just buffing enmity generation would do literally nothing and while the people who lock paladin out of their savage pfs are often times out of their mind, that's still a real issue if it's not addressed soon.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

What 8-man content are you coming into that your co-tank is ripping aggro off you?

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I'm not the main tank, the other guy is because he's a warrior and we can do the fight without using Shirk. I spend my time using intervention on him, covering dps, and healing healers. Not quite what I signed up for when I picked up the shield. Duty finder, 8 man and 24 man content. Other tanks always have aggro, even if I start with it, their dps pulls it off everytime. At that point, I'm a crappy healer (If I'm synced above 58) with poor dps. Might as well replace my spot in the group with a sage.

So basically, what you are saying is that they should buff Paladin's DPS, so that it can generate more enmity?...

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Originally Posted by Mishakai

I'm not the main tank, the other guy is because he's a warrior and we can do the fight without using Shirk. I spend my time using intervention on him, covering dps, and healing healers. Not quite what I signed up for when I picked up the shield. Duty finder, 8 man and 24 man content. Other tanks always have aggro, even if I start with it, their dps pulls it off everytime. At that point, I'm a crappy healer (If I'm synced above 58) with poor dps. Might as well replace my spot in the group with a sage.

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Wait, are other tanks ripping aggro off of you without or with their tank stance on?

Because if their ripping aggro off you without their tank stance active, there is a problem on your end - either gear or rotation.

If they're ripping aggro off you with their tank stance, there is a problem on both of your ends - nothing is more annoying than tanks playing the "I AM THE TANK"-game. Thankfully, there is an easy solution to this: either be the "bigger" (or less annoying) person, turn off your tankstance and just focus on dealing damage - or ask the other tank politely "Hey, I would like to maintank, if thats alright - could you please turn off your tankstance?"

There is no need for adjustments to make it easier for a tank to steal aggro or fight for it. There is no need to fight over aggro - it just makes both tanks present bad tanks. Either communicate or silently accept the role thats open - so either MT (if the other tank doesnt has their stance up) or OT (if they do).

I'm very sorry to say this, but if your aggro is being pulled off of you, it's very likely that you're doing something terribly wrong. Either both the tanks started with their stance on (which shouldn't happen to begin with), or you started off as the main tank and you're not doing your rotation correctly by the time the other tank turns on their stance. Yes, PLD's damage is underwhelming right now, but using a 1 or 2 handed weapon has nothing to do with aggro or skill speed. If you want to main tank, ideally you will start with your stance on and the offtank will have their stance off. During the opener you'll generate enough aggro to keep it even if the OT turns their stance on after their own opener unless you shirk/they voke/you do way too little damage (even on PLD).

I guess you're all missing the point. With PLD there is no communication required. Even with tank stance on, unless the other tank is also a pld, my role is defined. It'd be great to need to have that conversation at the beginning of a run.

And like I said before, if they want to buff dmg to increase enmity, then our 1h sword needs to be hitting as hard as a 2h sword.

It's simple to check, have two tanks, equal gear, put stance on and do their rotations. PLD enmity bar will always be behind other tanks. I can switch class from PLD to WAR, IN THE SAME GEAR, run the same dungeon, and as WAR I will have aggro every time. The other tank isn't shirking, has tank stance on and is doing all their stuff too.

Seems to me that tanks taking aggro is a problem with you.... if DPS is taking aggro and you are playing decently, that would be a PLD problem.

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Originally Posted by Mishakai

It's simple to check, have two tanks, equal gear, put stance on and do their rotations. PLD enmity bar will always be behind other tanks. I can switch class from PLD to WAR, IN THE SAME GEAR, run the same dungeon, and as WAR I will have aggro every time. The other tank isn't shirking, has tank stance on and is doing all their stuff too.

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You don't seem to understand how enmity works. Yes, if two tanks start off both with their stance on, the one that deals more damage will keep aggro. But that's just not how things are done in 8 man content. If you're losing aggro in a dungeon with no other tank then that's absolutely your fault, not the job

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Originally Posted by Mishakai

I guess you're all missing the point. With PLD there is no communication required. Even with tank stance on, unless the other tank is also a pld, my role is defined. It'd be great to need to have that conversation at the beginning of a run.

And like I said before, if they want to buff dmg to increase enmity, then our 1h sword needs to be hitting as hard as a 2h sword.

It's simple to check, have two tanks, equal gear, put stance on and do their rotations. PLD enmity bar will always be behind other tanks. I can switch class from PLD to WAR, IN THE SAME GEAR, run the same dungeon, and as WAR I will have aggro every time. The other tank isn't shirking, has tank stance on and is doing all their stuff too.

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Are you assuming that PLD = MT? Or why is there no communication required?
I hate to burst your bubble: Thats simply not the case - any tank can maintank, specially in casual content. Being a PLD doesnt make you the MT by default. When there are two tanks, one should simply not be in tankstance (unless they need to tank something, too - like adds or picking up the boss when the MT dies etc.). That might require communication, because your choice of tank-job isnt enough there.

Fighting over aggro and not communcating simply makes you a bad tank.
PLD is having some issues atm - but your issue wont be fixed by buffing the job (either damage or enemity). Your issue is a lack of communcation, the false assumption that your the default MT because of your job and making everyones life harder by getting into pointless fights over aggro.

(Also: There are only two dungeons with two tanks - if you're actually talking about trials the lack of communication is even worse because it will lead to one boss constantly spinning around. If you're talking about actual dungeons, the problem is even more worse because there is no second tank and you'd be losing aggro to dps and healer...)

If you buff PLD’s personal damage, by proxy you would be buffing their enmity generation.

It seems like this is less an issue of enmity with regards to the job, and more like you just always want to be the main tank. It honestly doesn’t matter that much, and PLD isn’t the de facto MT in 8-man content.

The other tanks rip off of you with their stance on because their personal damage is so much higher, which in turn affects their enmity generation. It has very little to do with PLD having garbage enmity generation and just that its personal damage is lower than the other three tanks. Naturally it will fall behind even if the MT PLD is doing everything “right”. So…the obvious solution is to bring it up to the other three in terms of damage. As I said, by proxy this would buff their enmity generation.

Giving PLD god tier enmity generation wouldn’t suddenly make it superior to the other three tanks. Especially since enmity is a joke and has been since Shadowbringers. Enmity doesn’t matter nearly as much as you think it does: a decent PLD can hold it just fine off of tanks that don’t have stance on, and the rest of the party. A bad PLD won’t be able to do that—but that’s not an issue with the job. That’s an issue with the player.

You want to be MT without communication, spam shield lob. You won't be doing good dps, but at least you'll be top on enmity. Theres more to tanking then just being top enmity.

The problem is that technically speaking, any enmity beyond that which allows you to maintain aggro is mostly useless. Being the king of enmity does absolutely nothing to help the usefulness of the PLD, nor does it differentiate the PLD from any other tank in any useful form.

It's like giving WHMs half healing enmity. It does literally nothing to help the WHM.

The problem with PLD is that it is deliberately tuned to have significantly less damage in a game where damage is everything, because all tanks are guaranteed to be able to survive in every content in the game, and enmity ceased to be an issue several years ago. Damage is THE single metric that tanks are measured by, and PLD is deliberately tuned to perform worse in that only metric that matters.

FFXIV may have started as a holy-trinity game, but it has steadily shifted towards the structure where everyone are just DPS with different side tasks. This is why every discussion ultimately arrive at dps charts: because the game is currently being designed so that everything else are guaranteed anyways, and only damage matters.

The other tank's item level may just be higher or they might be using level 90 HQ food and pots. You could do the same.

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Originally Posted by Mishakai

And like I said before, if they want to buff dmg to increase enmity, then our 1h sword needs to be hitting as hard as a 2h sword.

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It already is. All tanks' weapons have the same weapon damage. What you are looking for is potency for each skill, not from the weapon.

While it does feel slightly annoying when a DRK or WAR can faceroll their keyboard and rip aggro, it also doesn't really matter and should be remedied by incoming potency adjustments.

I don't agree that PLD enmity should be buffed, but what they're saying is not as confusing as some of you seem to think.

If two tanks run up to a mob and they both want to tank it--which happens a lot in casual duties, believe it or not--and they both do their rotation correctly, the one who does the most damage keeps hate.

If one is guaranteed to do less damage, they will never have hate.

Not mysterious. The people saying "the solution is to buff PLD damage" are reading it correctly.

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Originally Posted by Floortank

I don't agree that PLD enmity should be buffed, but what they're saying is not as confusing as some of you seem to think.

If two tanks run up to a mob and they both want to tank it--which happens a lot in casual duties, believe it or not--and they both do their rotation correctly, the one who does the most damage keeps hate.

If one is guaranteed to do less damage, they will never have hate.

Not mysterious. The people saying "the solution is to buff PLD damage" are reading it correctly.

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That's not what content or jobs are balanced around. If both tanks fight over aggro in casual content it's annoying for everyone else but nothing more than that. If a tank does significantly less damage it will be a lot more difficult to get into high end content on the job you love and that is at odds with SE's goal to keep every job viable for high end content.

Tired of other tanks ripping aggro?

Throw some shield lobs for big time enmity, that’ll show them!

Just kidding.. but..
I have had no issue MT or OT in savage first and second boss.
I’m not begging for a huge damage buff but I do think we need a little bit to bridge the gap between tanks.

I feel OP is missing the point that that noone (other than them I guess) has an issue with PLD emnity, others want more damage for the sake of having more damage.

If the other tank has more emnity on pull let them tank unless a swap is needed.

The idea of holding emnity is to keep bosses and mobs off dps and healers and on tanks. There are tools (provoke and shirk) for any time tanks need to swap to deal with mechanics.

If the above happens both tanks have done their jobs.

I don't see how PLD emnity is a problem.

The only thing I can see is that a PLD player might want to MT/tank on pull and this is such a none issue as there is a simple solution to this and its the other tank turning off their stance.

PLD has the most tank utility actions. It needs its pathetic damage output buffed, but it shouldn't be aggro king when it's supposed to be off-tank king, not main-tank.

If any tank, PLD or not, has to "fight" for aggro then your other tank is simply being uncooperative and doing the content wrong. (Or you are)

Yes, buff paladin dmg. Hitting like a wet noodle is not enjoyable. The dmg nerfs in EW were pointless and just sucked.

Paladins don't need more enmity. The only jobs that can pull off a paladin is the other tanks, because they do more damage.

Also, this isn't WoW. It doesn't matter that we use a 1-hand weapon instead of a 2-hand weapon. The DPS on a paladin's sword is the same as any other tank's weapon. The reason why paladins struggle on holding aggro over other tanks is because overall the potencies on their abilities are lower. All SE needs to do is bring those up and that'll solve both the damage and the enmity problem they have.

Usually, for me as a Main PLD, the MT is the one that runs to the boss with tank stance on (sometimes I run into the boss without the tank stance, and I just don't pop it and get agro because the one that did, already used some CDS).

I only have problems with tanks that takes the agro when I'm with all defensive CDs up.. like bro, what you doing you want me to force a wipe? ahahahaha


but yes, I agree that PLD would get a DMG buff, or more enmity over standard dmg rotation (not the magical one because that one have the option to be a panic heal button).

If anything paladin does not want to be main tank because the job has one less personal mitigation in favor of one additional group mitigation.