[Suggestion] Improving the new targeting system

EDIT: Thanks for adding the dev tag! ^^ Think about this suggestion as a "target mode C" ^^

Well, the current target system isnt that bad...the idea behind it was very good but the way it was implemented failed in taking full benefit of it. The change just made very troublesome to target self and often players mistakenly changed modes while changing targets, which often ended in death.

A good way to fix it would be add a ON/OFF option to toggle between old and new system, right? Wrong! Having to chosse between "bad" and "worse" shouldn't even be an option.

Now my suggestion:

Using as base the way zoom was implemented for gamepad (great idea. Thumbs up for this one) i'd suggest to actually double the current targeting mode, leaving a mode for up/down and a mode for left/right.

The idea is to let player set (and lock) a mode at up/down and a different one, unless one of them is set to "All" since they both can be set to "All", to left/right.

To change modes, the player hold the autorun button and tap up/down to change up/down mode and left/right to change left/right mode. This would keep the modes locked so no more accidents would happen midfight.

This might look even more weird than current one, but if you set "Friendly" or "Party" ("Party" when in party) at up/down and "Enemy" at left/right you might have an excellent performance targeting, because not only you will have 2 ways to target specific targets but also it will work VERY similar to FFXI targeting with gamepad.

Also, for a even better performance, i'd suggest a more specialized version of "Enemy" mode. Just like "Friendly" has a specific mode for party members only, the "Party" mode, "Enemy" should have the "Claimed" mode that only targets monsters claimed by that party. This would allow player to target the correct monster (or one of the correct monsters if in a group but then only be targetingting monsters from that group) with a single tap, preventing people to mistakenly attack the wrong monster.

Another important improvement would be removing auto-targeting from allies that target you for a skill or spell. Having the target going to the healer every time he casts a heal is terribly annoying since often he is behind you. So, in short words, auto-targgeting should work only when you are target from an enemy attack, skill or spell.

Another important option that needs to be addressed with targeting is hopefully adding the feature of targeting the NEAREST target, not all targets in the vicinity. It's frustrating coming into a dungeon room full of monsters, tab targetting and accidently missing the monster I'm trying to tab target... then I have to tab target through everything else in the room to get back to my target that I missed originally.

FIX:
Allow us two keybind options in the user interface area: Target Next Target, and Target Nearest Target


Another problem is I still feel that the indication that something is targeted in the game is still very shallow. In the heat of combat with lots of players and enemies, it's so frustratingly hard to see if I have my proper target selected.

FIX: Add some sort of circle under the monster, similar to most modern target-type games, so we can see a more clear indication that we have selected the proper monster. Another reccomendation is to add the ability to toggle Nameplates. For those of you that don't know what nameplates are:

http://static.wowace.com/content/ima..._nameplate.jpg

See how easy it is to identify that target is selected? I'm not saying it HAS to be like that, but look how easy it is to see if the target is selected or not.

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Originally Posted by Soda

Another important option that needs to be addressed with targeting is hopefully adding the feature of targeting the NEAREST target, not all targets in the vicinity. It's frustrating coming into a dungeon room full of monsters, tab targetting and accidently missing the monster I'm trying to tab target... then I have to tab target through everything else in the room to get back to my target that I missed originally.

FIX:
Allow us two keybind options in the user interface area: Target Next Target, and Target Nearest Target


Another problem is I still feel that the indication that something is targeted in the game is still very shallow. In the heat of combat with lots of players and enemies, it's so frustratingly hard to see if I have my proper target selected.

FIX: Add some sort of circle under the monster, similar to most modern target-type games, so we can see a more clear indication that we have selected the proper monster. Another reccomendation is to add the ability to toggle Nameplates. For those of you that don't know what nameplates are:

http://static.wowace.com/content/ima..._nameplate.jpg

See how easy it is to identify that target is selected? I'm not saying it HAS to be like that, but look how easy it is to see if the target is selected or not.

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Not to be nit picky, but people need to actually read the players guide that's been on the lodestone since it launched.

the system always targets the nearest target in your field of view. if you tab past your target, Shift Tab goes the opposite direction. and now you can us the arrow keys so whats the problem. People bitch about anything it seems,
when it would just be easier to learn the targeting system in place. /rant.

I will agree, and this is the only thing I still see wrong with the system as it stands now. the system needs to ignore mobs
that are not actively aggressive toward yourself or your party. Once you hit a mob or a mob hit's you the system should automatically ignore all targets that are not trying to kill you.

Oh I also agree with putting the target reticle on the ground under the mob. being in the field of view is just plain ugly.

They can take the targeting system as is, make switching the modes more user friendly, good way like they did with the controller zoom feature, Hold auto-run + D pad up)

In addition add the features from FF11 <stnpc> <stpc> these would do the same thing, with the /assist function most all the targeting problems would be covered.

To make the monster that is targeted more visible can highlight the name, or small arrow above the name itself, the addition of a circle under the monster for identifying as well above would be good or bad depending on how many monsters are being fought or size of the monster.

So far the targeting system works fairly well, only issues come when trying to scroll through the party members (need press up or down, which switches the modes).

The /assist function would help direct members to a single target based off of the person in charge of the selecting (Dynamis it was main tank)

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Originally Posted by Shadowskill

They can take the targeting system as is, make switching the modes more user friendly, good way like they did with the controller zoom feature, Hold auto-run + D pad up)

In addition add the features from FF11 <stnpc> <stpc> these would do the same thing, with the /assist function most all the targeting problems would be covered.

To make the monster that is targeted more visible can highlight the name, or small arrow above the name itself, the addition of a circle under the monster for identifying as well above would be good or bad depending on how many monsters are being fought or size of the monster.

So far the targeting system works fairly well, only issues come when trying to scroll through the party members (need press up or down, which switches the modes).

The /assist function would help direct members to a single target based off of the person in charge of the selecting (Dynamis it was main tank)

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I don't see why they have the stupid "modes" thing. Why can't they just do it FF11 way, like half the control scheme already does it.

Up/down = PC
left/right =NPC

the modes is like ... not being FF11 for the sake of not being FF11 mentality again. Half ass originality.

And yes, not having /assist commands is stupid, when it's already been invented.

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I don't see why they have the stupid "modes" thing. Why can't they just do it FF11 way, like half the control scheme already does it.

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Because as much as you may want it, this game is not FFXI and will not be. The game mechanics don't work the same way, and as such they can not simply replicate the old UI.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Because as much as you may want it, this game is not FFXI and will not be. The game mechanics don't work the same way, and as such they can not simply replicate the old UI.

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I don't see anything wrong with mapping it as suggested by kukurumei. In fact, I thought that's how it was working atm (yes i wasn't ingame after the change)

Name me which game mechanics you are referring to which prevent that mapping.
It makes perfectly sense to do it that way. And I didn't even play FFXI (SURPRISE!)
Just because something was the same as in another game doesn't mean it's bad. I'm getting tired of people screaming "this is not FFXI-2!!" over every little thing that gets suggested.

SE already did try to do everything differently and you see to what it has led to.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Because as much as you may want it, this game is not FFXI and will not be. The game mechanics don't work the same way, and as such they can not simply replicate the old UI.

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it took them 6 months to stubbornly mimic 70% of the FF11 UI, despite trying not to copy it "because the the mechanics don't work the same way". The shear fact is, after much R&D and wasting time and effort, they are "replicating the old UI".

Face it, they're trying to build a car, without looking like a car, and when shit don't work, then end up reworking into looking like a car.

Simple fact, it's not that they're FF14 UI not FF11 UI, it's that it's a pale broken imitation of it.

If they can't even copy their own system, how does anyone expect them to supersede it.

It's just stubbornness of the "Not be FF11". Take what works. In this case, instead of wasting 4 months "we need to improve UI". It ends up being exactly what FF11 tried to do and did better.

up/down PC/NPC toggle, is a stupidly inferior version of left/right=NPC up/down=PC.

that's why we keep asking for /assist /join /invite /st[n]pc. Because it freakin existed by their own creative minds (which is apparently not there to advise them)

Did you know auto target next red monster in the Nov update? It's still crappier then the exact same system in FF11 target next red monster.

In FF11: When monster dies, next attacking monster is automatically target locked, and also intelligently, in superseding order.

In FF14: When next monster dies, the monster has to hit you first before you change target(with no target lock), and is superseded by you doing something like targeting locking yourself because your skill bar disappeared.

And just to make it worse, unlike FF11, which is auto redirected, FF14, any skill you were doing is instantly canceled when monster dies. Which causes above problem to target malfunction.

It's a measure of the state of the game when you can't even match yourself much less surpass it.

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Name me which game mechanics you are referring to which prevent that mapping.

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How are you going to switch between skills in the action bar? XI had menu based combat, XIV doesn't. That's one of the reasons why it can not be replicated.

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I'm getting tired of people screaming "this is not FFXI-2!!" over every little thing that gets suggested.

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That's too bad, because at least half the time it is a valid point. Case by case.

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SE already did try to do everything differently and you see to what it has led to.

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I don't see where that led to. I did see where rushing the release of the game led though.

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Simple fact, it's not that they're FF14 UI not FF11 UI, it's that it's a pale broken imitation of it..

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The fact is, that XI was completely and utterly unacceptable for any modern mouse&keyboard users. XIV is miles better, although not good enough. Now they are slowly making the game less and less menu dependent as it should be, and that is definitely not the "FF11 way".

The target system they put in place seems like a nice balance, only bad side from how they implemented it would be the way of selecting between the modes.

It is a very solid targeting system though, allowing to cast passive abilities on party members while engaged in battle.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

How are you going to switch between skills in the action bar? XI had menu based combat, XIV doesn't. That's one of the reasons why it can not be replicated.

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Umm left and right? and macros? That's what we're doing anyway, same as FF11. Only difference is that we have 12345 now instead of selecting menus. At least we could talk in FF11.

FF11 UI was no award winner, but it was efficient once you learned it, Keyboard(never touch the mouse) or gamepad. FF14 is a slower, crappier, and buggier version of it.

If you want a great interface for KB/M fine, we have lot of dozens and dozens of them out there to imitate and enhance. Just like FF11 in terms of the middle ground between KB/M and gamepad was #1.

Right now all I'm hearing from you is the mad scientist, but without the scientist part. No one is going to wait for the scientist part to actually show itself.

Everyone likes to hear the word "original" but it's not practical, especially after the 18th failure. How about originally failing.

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left/right =NPC

How are you going to switch between skills in the action bar?

Umm left and right?

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Excellent thinking.

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(never touch the mouse)

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2011 called, and he says this kind of crap is not acceptable in his time and age for a PC MMO. So,

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FF11 UI was efficient once you learned it

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It was crappy until you got used to it over-time. FF11 was not "middleground". It was a console UI designed for gamepads and the keyboard part was tacked on at the last second without any kind of thinking for mouse or PC-UI as a whole.

Ask any PC player whether they prefer menu based UI or not. XI's UI was crap, and XIV is attempting to break away from that mold. Sorry to tell you your ideals do not work in reality.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

How are you going to switch between skills in the action bar? XI had menu based combat, XIV doesn't. That's one of the reasons why it can not be replicated.

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I think it's pretty clear that the up/down/left/right keys would only used to switch targets while, err, targeting? It doesn't stop you from switching between skills and/or navigating through a menu.

choose target->select skill->use skill->select skill->use skill->cancel->change target->select skill....

i see no problems.

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I think it's pretty clear that the up/down/left/right keys would only used to switch targets while, err, targeting? It doesn't stop you from switching between skills and/or navigating through a menu.

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You would do both at the same time if they share the same input method. You think this is np?

You are always "targeting" something when in an encounter.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

You would do both at the same time if they share the same input method. You think this is np?

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as I wrote in my example, no, you wouldn't. There is a thing called "mode". When you are in "target changing"-mode, you are not able to choose skills. By choosing a target, you switch to "skill select"-mode. By cancelling skill selection you switch back to target selection. By cancelling that you leave targeting mode.

It is not any different from the targeting system we have now, and unless you are a) not reading what I write properly or b) trolling me, you should see it too.

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It is not any different from the targeting system we have now, and unless you are a) not reading what I write properly or b) trolling me, you should see it too.

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Yeah, I thought you were still going on about replicating XI's targeting system. I know that the current system can use improvements, but replicating XI is not the way to do it.

Doesn't up/down in the current system change the target mode though? How would that work then?

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Doesn't up/down in the current system change the target mode though? How would that work then?

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Well what pressing up/down currently does (as far as I understood it), is changing the targetting mode. So you press up to switch to "enemy only" mode, then choose your target, attack, but have to switch back to "party/ally only" mode to heal. This could lead to confusion in heated battles, for example.

With the proposed change, you wouldn't have to change modes anymore, just press up/down to change target to the nearest allied target or left/right to change target to the nearest enemy target.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Excellent thinking.



2011 called, and he says this kind of crap is not acceptable in his time and age for a PC MMO. So,



It was crappy until you got used to it over-time. FF11 was not "middleground". It was a console UI designed for gamepads and the keyboard part was tacked on at the last second without any kind of thinking for mouse or PC-UI as a whole.

Ask any PC player whether they prefer menu based UI or not. XI's UI was crap, and XIV is attempting to break away from that mold. Sorry to tell you your ideals do not work in reality.

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Umm you do realize FF11 up/down/eft/right menu selection is the same as FF14..only FF11 has well...hierarchy to everything.

That we have Extended keyboards and gampads with analogs. Not to mention select and non selected gives completely different situations.

Currently: non-selected, left right target select selected, left/right skills.
tab 12345 also usable as well as f890

Then we have the fact Left and right arrow keys is not 4/6 num keys nor are they 4 and 6 action keys. Lots of mapping potentials.

Same with gamepad left and right pad keys are not left and analog keys nor left and right view keys.

FF11 has years and years to refine its controls to perfection for its medium.

And any FF11 kb users can out play your kb/m even if you had wow interfaces, and don't need vent to communicate. That was how effective it was to play in FF11 kb without sacrificing the console UI.

One handed playing in FF11 was/is something of an understatement, that was crazy effective in typing and battling and walking.

Sure it lacked drag and drop, copy and paste, point and drag, asdf, etc. But it that's the price you play for mult platform.

Anyone who disses FF11-s keyboard mapping seriously needs to wake up and smell the non corporal tunnel syndrome hands. One handed playing owns!

the overriding point being, show me something that works, not something that "may work". And SE failed. If they can't match FF11, how can they hope to succeed it.

Time is ticking as they say.

There are still simple things still lacking that should stupidly be there, via FF11 "been there done that"
ex:
Up/down = inventory selecting
Left/right = page scrolling
cancel cancel = full screen log
esc esc = buff selection

list goes on.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...argeting-Modes
from the improvements section

...added the tag to the thread.

I'd like to see in conjunction with the new toggleable all/party/friendly/enemy system.
The ability to [tab] to nearest target to cursor.

I've long been a Fan of [tab] quick select on mobs/players, especially when it's coupled with the mouse hovering over, or near your target.
No effort at all required to roll the finger onto the 1 key to fire off your first skill once you've positively selected the target you want.
Instead of having to scroll though several other potential targets till you get the one your after.

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Originally Posted by Ceska_Zbrojovka

I'd like to see in conjunction with the new toggleable all/party/friendly/enemy system.
The ability to [tab] to nearest target to cursor.

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AFAIK it already does that. If you miss a target, press shift+tab (aka tab back)

Yes you can [tab] to target.
What I'm referring to it pressing [tab] and it selects target closest to cursor, not Next target.

more options to Target the >>[The Environment]<< not only mobs and npc. many other classes probably would benefit from this and it could give more possibility. More selection of Trees, Waters, Rocks and many other thing in Eorza... currently as it is it all feels kinda limited.