Idea: New Role and jobs for 7.0

Yeah, I know. It is EARLY for this kind of topic, though I think a lot of the groundwork for such projects have to get started early, especially as we slowly but surely get more expansions. Onto the main topic: a new role.

Or rather, a new category for DPS: Melee Magic. It would work very much like a mirror of Ranged Physical. Instead of buffing, it would debuff. Now which job currently has a debuff that is considered premier raid utility...Ninja.

With Ninja being the focal point for "melee magic" dps, you have to consider the fact that much of its DPS isn't from the weapon skills, but rather the abilities that revolve around using Ninki and Mudra.

I have two job concepts that will fit with the thematic elements that Ninja puts in place: Trick Attack, and ability damage. One is a very expected one given the theme suggest, the other might surprise you.

Rune Knight and Green Mage.

Rune Knight will be the "selfish" job of the melee magic DPS, with no raid utility. This will keep this pattern in line with other DPS roles each having one selfish job outside of Role Actions. Green Mage will then take the other end and have a lot more raid utility at the cost of its personal damage.

I am not sure about posting EVERYTHING all at once, because I dislike having walls of text, so instead I will follow up this post with additional information for both if there is interest in this discussion topic. So, for now, quick rundown for how I see both jobs operating and playing like.

Rune Knight (RNK) will use Dual Axes as their weapon, pulling from the Viking and Rune Fencer thematically (and we have enough swords). RNK will use 6 elemental runes for specific effects and use them in order to generate an Astral Rune, Umbral Rune, and a Neutral Rune. Once all three are amassed, they activate a Runic Storm, which will cause each Rune to be activated in a short window to deal damage and have a big finisher based on if they were used in the right order or not. After the Storm, you repeat the base use of Runes to build up to the storm again.

Proper rune order is taught via initial questline, as it is also taught in lore. Lightning > Fire > Earth > Ice > Water > Wind. Runes will also have an astral or umbral component, and ever 2 used unlocks one of the runes I mentioned earlier: astral, umbral and neutral. The idea is to have RNKs use the runes together for optimal DPS, activate the proper secondary rune, to get into Runic Storm all while still using their weapon combo to build up a meter for oGCD spenders.

Green Mage (GRN) will use Snake Swords (think Ivy from Soul Caliber) and utilize DoTs for constant damage, as well as use those DoTs to do extra damage with other abilities. This job will have far less flow to its rotation, instead favoring managing DoTs optimal uptime and using oGCDs to deal extra damage while building meter to pull a reverse RDM and have a ranged burst using the fact their sword is functionally a whip as well. The flanking combo finisher will refresh DoTs and they will have additional utility, as well as a Trick Attack equivalent, they will also have a Chain Strategem equivalent as well, and they will have a flat damage debuff that is weaker than Addle or Feint but can stack with those. This weakness debuff in theory can last longer, but it is also only a single target debuff, so in add phases or dungeons it is effectively weaker than Tactician.

Their ranged burst combo will also enhance their gap closer and give the closer a follow up with enhanced damage and refresh DoTs. I think ideal gameplay for GRN will focus mostly on keeping DoTs up, properly getting in and out, and utilizing their debuffs to maximize raid damage.

Melee Magical DPS as a role will have 6 role actions: Addle, Feint, True North, Bloodlust/Second Wind, Arm's Length, and Leg Sweep. This gives each one the ability to weaken multiple sources of damage, as well as couple sustain options focusing on debuffing.

Feel free to share your thoughts here, offer suggestions to the jobs, or ask for more of what I have written down. I am more than happy to share and if this discussion helps shape the future of the game, I will be all the happier.

Oh, and in terms of Limit Break, I have not given much thought on it, but I would expect Cone AoE to be a good option, and it would naturally be stronger than both Ranged options, but weaker than melee physical.

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Originally Posted by Lord-Kazan

Yeah, I know. It is EARLY for this kind of topic,

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Kind of late, actually. By now they've probably already decided on 7.0 jobs and have started working on job design. They'll be throwing around ideas for 8.0 soon.

I am not entirely sure I am too late, but I also do not know a lot about game development beyond the scope of "you gotta get started early". You could easily be right and if so, this goes from "lets discuss what could be possible in 2 years" to "let's have fun theorizing until this thread is dead by tomorrow." I like bouncing ideas with people, and this is perhaps the only place I could think of where there might be more interested people. :D

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Originally Posted by Lord-Kazan

I am not entirely sure I am too late, but I also do not know a lot about game development beyond the scope of "you gotta get started early". You could easily be right and if so, this goes from "lets discuss what could be possible in 2 years" to "let's have fun theorizing until this thread is dead by tomorrow." I like bouncing ideas with people, and this is perhaps the only place I could think of where there might be more interested people. :D

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I'm sorry if I used a phrasing that sounded discouraging or critical; I just meant to say they try to plan things out at least a couple years before we even hear about them, so if you want to present ideas for jobs on your wish list you might be presenting them for consideration for 8.0 rather than 7.0.

Ahh! That makes a lot of sense then. I am quick to assume the worst of a situation, which I am trying to get better at by spinning it into something better. I appreciate the heads up though and you're probably correct on the timing. Thank you for clarifying. :D

I'm personally more interested in a light mage of sorts. perhaps exorcist or something like that. Make them some order founded to track down voidsent during the war of the magi. We don't have a light centric dps yet like healers do with white mage or tanks with paladin. Considering we have been called the warrior of light for so long, having a dps job centered around using light would be nice. Perhaps I should make a thread on it. Maybe i'll get motivated eventually. xD

I honestly prefer geomancer over green mage and even better if it is like a mage tank with a hammer/bell hybrid that uses different aspects of nature. Viking and rune fencer are already technically in the game with marauder and red mage.

As for the magic melee idea, I do like it kinda, but it falls flat when you realize there is a ton of jobs that fight in melee that use magic. Samurai, Dark Knight, Reaper, Paladin, Ninja, etc. Three of those off the top of my head use magic.

DPS role subdivisions exist the way that they do for a few reasons. First, you only really need three varieties of DPS LB3 (single/line/AoE). Second, people tend to prefer playing at range, especially when starting out; this is as much for the psychological distance as it is because its mechanically safer. Lastly, if you are melee, you tend to become very possessive of space around the boss. You don't want more 'melee-types' to trip over.

We're fine when it comes to numbers for melee jobs for a few expansions at least. What I'll be interested to see is if they'll actually release both a caster and a ranged job at the same time next expansion (Time Mage/Chemist?), or if they'll opt for just doing a single job. With 19 standard combat jobs, I can't see it being feasible for their present job design team to continue adding jobs at the current rate.

I don't think another role subdivision is the way to go here, not this late into the game.
But we are due another job like NIN.
Rune Knight of some description (but taking inspiration from FFIXs Zidane with dual-swords and Dyne perhaps) would be a good way to go with it.

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Originally Posted by Shiro--Tsubasa

I'm personally more interested in a light mage of sorts

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Thematically, you are correct. Most melee jobs use magic, but in world I don't think anyone actively refers to what they do as magic when it is aetheric manipulation, but you have pointed out that every magic using job has cast timers. Melee magic would likely need that as well for a clearer distinction of what kind of damage they are doing, since bosses also have access to physical and magical damage.

I wouldn't mind a light based dps either, though I doubt it will be made in a proper sense aside from BLU eventually getting access to ShB content. Geomancer is also highly unlikely to get a proper introduction since SB AST quest basically made them Conjurers but Eastern. I would love to see proper geomancy, but I figure that would be difficult since every itteration of the drop relied heavily on the environment instead of having a suite of skills they could use consistently.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

DPS role subdivisions exist the way that they do for a few reasons.

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Perhaps I am odd, but I don't quite care if there are three DPS stacked on each other trying to get positionals. Granted I also stand under the boss even as a caster after I know mechanics.

But another reason I would even remotely want to suggest a division is primarily because it would help better shape the identity of jobs overall from a design perspective, and the game actually would moderately accommodate the split because it would then have 6 roles to have associated with 6 elements. Though that could also just be my brain wanting that line up.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I don't think another role subdivision is the way to go here, not this late into the game.

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They only implemented the physical ranged split one expansion ago. Before DNC, BRD and MCH were just tossed into DPS. The actual split happened in ShB likely because they were planning on adding onto these roles and hopefully more clearly defining them via the updated Role Actions system. It is about creating a unified theme for the jobs.

Ninja is the one of 2 jobs without a secondary combo, RPR being the second, though it does feature a combo system to supplement its main combo. NIN lacks that. My idea behind the division would be to take NIN and give it its own identity and role that could have others made to supplement it. Also, I totally forgot about double blades like Zidane's. I feel dumb for having forgot that weapon, but I still wanna see more other weapons and fewer swords. but that is me.

Hmm... I think if they made a double ended weapon, that would be distinct enough an identity that you could have double axes, double swords and a double ended sort of spear (think Serge's Swallow weapon from Chrono Cross) without worrying about straying from a design standpoint.

That said, I'd be interested in gear choice. They'd probably prefer to avoid adding another gear type and diluting the drop tables further than just adding new weapons, so would you say they all get scouting gear and damage off Dex, or would say Green mage be in mage gear and have it's damage proc off Int?

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Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

Hmm... I think if they made a double ended weapon, that would be distinct enough an identity that you could have double axes, double swords and a double ended sort of spear (think Serge's Swallow weapon from Chrono Cross) without worrying about straying from a design standpoint.

That said, I'd be interested in gear choice. They'd probably prefer to avoid adding another gear type and diluting the drop tables further than just adding new weapons, so would you say they all get scouting gear and damage off Dex, or would say Green mage be in mage gear and have it's damage proc off Int?

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I was honestly seeing Green Mage from a technical standpoint being a mirror of sorts to both Bard and Red Mage, so technically yes, I would want it to run Scouting/Aiming. Especially since status spells often run independent of a magic stat outside of accuracy in games where they were prevalent, or even worse used character level for accuracy instead of a stat. Plus, a whip-like sword would also highly emphasize a dexterity-based combat style as opposed to the casting of a red mage. But those are just my thoughts on it.

A double ended weapon would be nice to have, and if done well could easily cover a lot of different weapon combos, especially if they could detach from each other, very much like Zidane's weapons did in Dissidia. It would also lend to the dexterity theme going for anything in Scouting gear. I hadn't considered it. Thank you for pointing that out. :D

Hm. From a mechanical standpoint there isn't really any difference between physical and magical damage in this game, it's not like bosses are weak or resistant to one or the other. Most of what sets phys ranged and magic dps apart is magic dps has more cast times to fill time rather than auto attacking but even then we have RDM which is part melee and SMN which is mostly instants with a gap closer to get their book slappin' on. We need more real casters.

Anyway, I don't think magic melee is unique enough to justify its existence. What we'd gain: A different kind of LB (not really needed), a new set of role actions, and an extra 1% boost for having all the roles in a full party which would restrict groups that much more. I don't think it'd be worth it, it's nice having at least 1 flex spot.

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Originally Posted by Lord-Kazan

They only implemented the physical ranged split one expansion ago. Before DNC, BRD and MCH were just tossed into DPS. The actual split happened in ShB likely because they were planning on adding onto these roles and hopefully more clearly defining them via the updated Role Actions system. It is about creating a unified theme for the jobs.

Ninja is the one of 2 jobs without a secondary combo, RPR being the second, though it does feature a combo system to supplement its main combo. NIN lacks that. My idea behind the division would be to take NIN and give it its own identity and role that could have others made to supplement it. Also, I totally forgot about double blades like Zidane's. I feel dumb for having forgot that weapon, but I still wanna see more other weapons and fewer swords. but that is me.

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2 expansions ago, which means it's been 3 expansions with the current setup, which is the majority of the games lifespan at this point.
I'm just not seeing the justification for it sorry.
"Magic Meleec could have been a thing, but NIN doesn't even use magical equipmentn it uses Dex based and shares accessories wity phys ranged. It's just a bit of an outlier, and giving it it's own role which would then need to be populated by at least two other jobs, seems like it's stretching things out too thin.

One new NIN-like job however, would round out the melee quite nicely with a 2:2:2 gear distribution.

I would love a support role like
FFXI Bard. Geomancer, ect,

all jobs had some support but Bard and Geomancer was full support roles

+1 for rune knight/mystic knight though I wish it actually used a sword, I wish I could use something other than a katana for a melee dps xD

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

NIN doesn't even use magical equipmentn it uses Dex based and shares accessories wity phys ranged.

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This is largely not relevant. Main stat selection is just an illusion of choice over what is really just "power". They can put a role in whatever main stat gear they want and rationalize in any number of ways. They can even use a trait to convert one stat to another if necessary. For example, putting a magic attacker in DEX gear and then giving them a trait that converts DEX gained from equipment to INT. Or just make their spells use DEX and say it has to do with the dexterity required to pull off those spell motions, or something.

iam surprised we havent got any class that use dual swords, and no, dual dagger from nin doesnt count for me.

i still hoping for "shaman/onmyoji" class like, using paper talisman and the like, could be healer class or magic dps class i guess.

i got goosebumps during "range physical attack" role quest, in the final fight "certain someone" came and instead of using his usual weapon, he use staff/cane and actually cast pentagram shaman/onmyoji like barrier.

i got my hope up for this

Sword and dagger, twinblade... (Gabranth basically)

I really doubt we see any dot centric job. The game's tick system is simply too dated and doesn't support them well, and that's why, in my opinion, they are getting phased out of the game.

Also, with there being 5 melee jobs vs 3 cast and 3 pranged and melee historically being the highest dps role on top of the most recent and overpowered dps job to be added to the game being melee, I pretty seriously doubt we are getting a new melee in 7.0. It's not impossible, and SE develops their game in a very different way than what western gamers are used to, but I would be much more receptive to a new caster or pranged job, and definitely a pranged overhaul of the existing jobs before we get a SIXTH melee.

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Originally Posted by Mysticunicycle

I really doubt we see any dot centric job. The game's tick system is simply too dated and doesn't support them well, and that's why, in my opinion, they are getting phased out of the game.

Also, with there being 5 melee jobs vs 3 cast and 3 pranged and melee historically being the highest dps role on top of the most recent and overpowered dps job to be added to the game being melee, I pretty seriously doubt we are getting a new melee in 7.0. It's not impossible, and SE develops their game in a very different way than what western gamers are used to, but I would be much more receptive to a new caster or pranged job, and definitely a pranged overhaul of the existing jobs before we get a SIXTH melee.

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I feel like whenever this is brought up people act like you’re speaking in tongues. “What do you MEAN we don’t need a 6th melee after we just got one?” 7.0 will have caster at the same time between release as healer did before we got Sage.

The way roles can be split in several different ways, by melee/ranged, or melee/phys-range/magic-range, or slaying/maiming/scouting/aiming/casting, is... either intentional or a lucky accident, as it gives them the justification to break the pattern whenever they want, roles will never be truly balanced because by another metric they will be imbalanced.

They've stated before that their first concern is; does the job and it's mechanics work well? Then they fit it into the role/weapon/lore that is most suitable. I guess the only time They've broken out of this is when EW forced them to add a healer.

So by release pattern, we're due a castern but there is no guarantee, as there is justification for phys range or another melee. Chances are though they used up their bestn most recent melee suiting job mechanic on reaper, and whatever else they have in the pipeline would therefore be better suited to a mon-melee job.

i think for new class, they have to fix the general systematic of damage and status ailment in this game first.

for one the game doesnt have an actual element attribute, yes there are fire spell, ice damage, etc, but it just a name only, all those element did not work like any other videogames.

this make applying a new class harder because they can only do so much with class with basic "fixed" role which is the usual tank, dps, healer. you cant dive deeper into sub branch of dps like a class who focus in one element only for example (pyromancer class or ice focus class), the only sub branch dps you can do is well... support.

like people who want that "rune knight" yeah it sound cool, they can imbue their sword with fire or ice etc, but it does nothing because it just (probably) a flat damage increase, not an actual elemental triangle system, in the end all they can do with rune knight is just standard combo attack to fill up rune etc which become a discount samurai class lol

they really need to broaden their damage system first if they want to apply new class, cant do dot focus class, cant do elemental class (because no point since smn already exist), geomancer? it just going to end up as BLM or SMN because their damage is just that... "damage" not elemental damage

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Originally Posted by gumas

i think for new class, they have to fix the general systematic of damage and status ailment in this game first.

for one the game doesnt have an actual element attribute, yes there are fire spell, ice damage, etc, but it just a name only, all those element did not work like any other videogames.

this make applying a new class harder because they can only do so much with class with basic "fixed" role which is the usual tank, dps, healer. you cant dive deeper into sub branch of dps like a class who focus in one element only for example (pyromancer class or ice focus class), the only sub branch dps you can do is well... support.

like people who want that "rune knight" yeah it sound cool, they can imbue their sword with fire or ice etc, but it does nothing because it just (probably) a flat damage increase, not an actual elemental triangle system, in the end all they can do with rune knight is just standard combo attack to fill up rune etc which become a discount samurai class lol

they really need to broaden their damage system first if they want to apply new class, cant do dot focus class, cant do elemental class (because no point since smn already exist), geomancer? it just going to end up as BLM or SMN because their damage is just that... "damage" not elemental damage

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We used to have elemental damage, and elemental materia to go with it.
It was removed because it was unbalanced.

well.. they have to do something about it, if not all these future new class will just feel "samey" with the only difference is the playstyle/mechanic/class gauge

Even needing three varieties of Damage LB is kind of a stretch. They could as easily have just given all three full damage on the primary/first target and then done fall-off thereafter.

There are very few fights for which Ranged LB could uniquely reach both mob groups and said groups couldn't just be brought close enough together for a caster LB3.

1 of the classes will 100% share gear with ninja since no class does atm so that should be a hint hopefully.

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Originally Posted by armadius

1 of the classes will 100% share gear with ninja since no class does atm so that should be a hint hopefully.

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you what funny about this is that i used to think sam class will be the one who share armor with ninja since ninja and samurai usually come together in one package