SMN Genuine Feedback

SUM looks amazing. I love the changes, gameplay & graphics! Now those are some real summons.

But the job feels way too simple. Please give us some off-gcd where you actually need to time something properly (dynamic).

I'm not asking to make it as complicated as it was. But there is nearly no complexity to it right now.

This is why I'd like the dots back. Gives us tri-disaster, & bane. Maybe bake the casted dots into a single cast. Reset tri-disaster on Pheonix / Bahamut? Make Ruin IV do more damage to a target with a dot?

Also that damage is far too low, I can't see myself playing it in that state. Sure it has resurrect, but Red Mage does it way better, since swiftcast is a damage increase for Summoner.

Damage for mobility isn't a fair enough exchange (except for BLM).
Please increase the complexity with something dynamic (doesn't need dots, I would just like that). That should then justify a damage increase.

I'll take some ocgds, dots can stay gone thanks. One of the stated goals of the rework was to wash Summoner clean of the "poison mage" stigma it picked up over the years. A revert back to that isn't happening, though it does open the door for a true dot caster to be added in 7.0. More summons are always welcome.

I feel like they should keep DoTs out of summoner. I do think more ogcds could help. For example, perhaps have aethercharges recharge every time you summon G/I/T and change the name of fester depening on the element you are attumed to. It would add another ogcd to weave in making Garuda a single weave phase and Titan a double weave phase. This is just an idea on the spot.

Hopefully when they add more summons later down the line, they could interact in unique ways making each phase feel more different. ie if they add a Shiva phase she could play more like red mages melee combo phase where you jump in melee a couple time and go back and insta cast some strong damage. It been a while since I did her fight, but iirc she did have a sword skill and a bow skill so perhaps using that as inspiration?

I like their approach to less buttons, but I think the buttons should feel more different when they change instead of functionally being the same thing. (which I wouldn't mind so much if they add my idea to changing fester as it would make Garuda phase and Titan phase different enough by altering the pacing between single and double weave)

I kinda agree.
SMN looks amazing and the new summons look really cool.
But the gameplay doesn't feel very engaging. There's not much thought behind the rotation other than do not go Ifrit when you can't stand still to cast.
But there's no depth to the rotation or gameplay. It doesn't have to b e super confusing or in depth but just something more to think about. Something to build towards instead of giving us all these summons for free without having to do something for them.

Dots aren't necessary imo but if any maybe give the Carbuncle a dot ability on a cooldown instead of the shield it has right now.
Either way, the job needs something more to make it feel complete.

And yeah definitely the mobility tax is way too high in the game. I also think MCH is suffering way too hard from mobility tax just as SMN is right now (well not sure if it's intended or the class just ended up much weaker than expected.)

Honestly they gotta do something to give summoner some complexity. And I hope they don’t wait until 7.0 to do it. People played it because it was complex and now it’s so simple it’s painful. Maybe give a stack each time you use a gem and the more stacks you have when you summon bahamut/Phoenix the better they are. Like when you have 3 stacks you get extra deathflares during bahamut or Phoenix granting a buff that has a chance to auto rez party members. I’d also like some interaction with aetherflow. It’s the most tacked on feeling thing in the game at this point. Something like landing crimson cyclone/strike when an enemy is in garuda’s slipstream grants an aetherflow. I’d take literally anything. Yes, even a dot.

You have a DoT in form of Slipstream (old school summoners will remember Shadowflare)

Not only SMN is too simple and while it has been restricted in what you could do on your rotation, now it's straight up impossible to deviate from Baha > I/G/T > Phoe > I/G/T

I'd personally realsly like an oGCD that provides us the gems instead of Baha/Phoe the one to give them to us. 2 charges, 60s recast that is affected by spell speed or not. It feels really wrong that my second GCD is Summon Bahamut.

Personally, just Potency Buffs would fix the job but wouldnt fix the gameplay. I find it too simple and restrictive :(

Well, Yoshida said the dev does read the forums so hopefully they see how many SMN threads there are.

I feel like Garuda needs something that makes her feel unique. Ifrit feels different due to the gap closer and long cast times. Titan is instant casts and mobility, but Garuda, outside of slipstream… what exactly is the benefit of having 4 charges of a spell with a shorter recast when we have nothing to weave or do in between? It just feels like something I have to get rid of and totally pointless, like they didn’t know exactly what to do with her.

I. feel like Emerald Rite/Catastrophe need to somehow interact with Slipstream, maybe make it so that the more stacks of rite you are holding on to, the longer slipstream takes to cast and the more damage it deals, and have it consume the stacks. That way you can choose between lesser damage if mobility is needed or more damage when you can stand still. I feel it would make Garuda feel a bit different and there is more decision making, which the job could use of more right now.

Personally i dont think re-adding in Dots and bane are the answer, it was the conflict between Dots and pet focus that caused the issues with the previous summoner. What i thnk they need to do, is add something to track to achieve something within the rotation and deviate each summons GCD rotation so they ultimately feel different. Some small adjustments could give a lot of engagement and that is the bottom line issue, while as a foundation the rework is great, there are some things that need a little adjustment to give a sense of accomplishment and optimisation alongside a sense of complexity without it being as complex as the previous design.

The only thing I really want from new SMN is more interaction between the gemshine and astral flow abilities for Garuda and Ifrit phase.

I wouldn't mind if they gave us DoTs back, but if they do I'd want them to be something that makes sense flavor-wise. Like maybe you summon Leviathan, who places a whirlpool on the target that deals damage over time.

More oGCDs would be nice but without any other changes they wouldn't really add any complexity...just another button or two to weave in whenever you want like ED/fester.

I wonder if they give us another astral flow type ability that would be proc based.

Meaning it would be a different oGCD for ifrit, Garuda, titan. Maybe have it have limited charges so you have to choose which phase to use the charges in. For ifrit, maybe it’s a displacement type ability. Garuda could be some interaction with slipstream. Titan could add a 3 to his 1-2 combo that deals more damage.

It does need fine tuning. Some OGCD would be nice. reworking Ifrit to be pure melee would be great.
I wouldn't mind a dot coming back as long as dots being a core mechanism never does, Summon Ramuh for a powerful dot on a long cooldown i would have zero issue with.

- Make the 3 summons attunements actual phases you stay a set period of time casting their respective skills and not just some number of stacks.
- Make Ruin IV OGCD and Energy Drain giving 2 stacks of it.
- Make the Summon spells be OGCD
- Reduce recast time of Ruby Rite.
- Make Crimson Cyclone/Strike have 2 stacks sharing the same counter in two separate buttons.
- Make Slipstream OGCD insta cast.
- Add Aerial Slash skill to Garuda Attunement.
- Add faster cast time to Emerald Rite instead of insta cast.
- Make it only possible to Summon Bahamut/Phoenix after going over Ifrit/Garuda/Titan phases in whatever order you choose.
- Make it so we can use 2 Ahk Morns/Revelations like before.
- Make Searing Light a SMN OGCD and not a pet skill.
- Potency adjustments to comprise all that.

Things I wanted to see.

Looks cool until you try to see whats happening in trials and raids... i set all my pets to small cause I like to see. All the coolness is wasted. And I am sure there are many others who set it to small, cause its just a pain in the ass to not see either markers or abilities or outlines of abilities from the boss.

I think Ifrit is such a break in the flow with cast timer. Also, many times I cannot even cast my strike down after jump in trials/ raids due mechanics and then you just lose it if you cast something else while you need to stay away.

The dmg is just cute. I am an average player, even sometimes underperforming because I am tired, but if I compare my own dmg output with summoner and dancer there is about a 400 dps difference only on the same runs, which is crazy. And now they are going to buff dancer, so if summoner does not receive anything I would not be surprised if it became the lowest dps ingame.

Which would be fine for me if it had as much utility as people claim it has... but it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by kcedelic

Red Mage does it way better, since swiftcast is a damage increase for Summoner.

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I just dropped in to say "Swift Cast is a DPS increase for RDM too".

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

I just dropped in to say "Swift Cast is a DPS increase for RDM too".

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Just dropped in to say: It is a damage increase for rdm but the difference is rdm can freely use a swiftcast for dam since they can rez someone with their dualcast. Smn doesn't have that luxury and has to hold swiftcast just in case they have to rez someone.

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Originally Posted by MrJPtheAssassin

Just dropped in to say: It is a damage increase for rdm but the difference is rdm can freely use a swiftcast for dam since they can rez someone with their dualcast. Smn doesn't have that luxury and has to hold swiftcast just in case they have to rez someone.

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lol i can only assume you quoted me to point it out to me. but ill give ya the benefit of the doubt, i could be wrong.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

You have a DoT in form of Slipstream (old school summoners will remember Shadowflare)

Not only SMN is too simple and while it has been restricted in what you could do on your rotation, now it's straight up impossible to deviate from Baha > I/G/T > Phoe > I/G/T

I'd personally realsly like an oGCD that provides us the gems instead of Baha/Phoe the one to give them to us. 2 charges, 60s recast that is affected by spell speed or not. It feels really wrong that my second GCD is Summon Bahamut.

Personally, just Potency Buffs would fix the job but wouldnt fix the gameplay. I find it too simple and restrictive :(

Well, Yoshida said the dev does read the forums so hopefully they see how many SMN threads there are.

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You know I was thinking the same thing about a gem-generating OGCD ability. Having Carbuncle grant it to you would also help address the issue of him not really contributing to our playstyle very well. It can be an OGCD on a 30 second cooldown that gives you one of your gemstones randomly. You wouldn't necessarily use this is a perfect rotation since you want to get through your Bahamut/Phoenix phases as quickly as possible, but it would offer you that extra flexibility for situations where you need to delay your burst. Maybe the boss is about to go through a phase change, or maybe you're just dealing with the last wave of trash before the next boss in a dungeon. There are a few other things that SMN needs, sure, but definitely a good place to start.

I just don’t understand why they stopped at Ifrit, Garuda and Titan. There are so many primals in the game already. Why not give us 2-3 more primals to use as ogcds to bring more impact to the job. The choices are wide. Lakshmi, Susano, King Moogle Mog, Ravana, Bismarck, Sophia, Zurvan, Sephirot, Knights of the round, Eureka, Odin, Proto-Ozma, Shinryu, Tsukuyomi, Hydaelyn, Zodiark, Warrior of light, Magus sisters, Anima. Etc. I didn’t call Shiva, Leviathan and Ramuh because they are elemental and we’ll most likely get them in 7.0 along with Alexander as the new Demi- summon. We need ogcd summons please.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

I just don’t understand why they stopped at Ifrit, Garuda and Titan. There are so many primals in the game already. Why not give us 2-3 more primals to use as ogcds to bring more impact to the job. The choices are wide. Lakshmi, Susano, King Moogle Mog, Ravana, Bismarck, Sophia, Zurvan, Sephirot, Knights of the round, Eureka, Odin, Proto-Ozma, Shinryu, Tsukuyomi, Hydaelyn, Zodiark, Warrior of light, Magus sisters, Anima. Etc. I didn’t call Shiva, Leviathan and Ramuh because they are elemental and we’ll most likely get them in 7.0 along with Alexander as the new Demi- summon. We need ogcd summons please.

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Well the main issue as I see it is that, for the longest time, Egis as pets having different movesets was a glaring flaw in SMN's design. If I'm given the choice between pets that do different things, why would I ever summon anything but the strongest pet? That's why Garuda-Egi was, for the longest time, the only pet actually used by SMN ever. So come 3.0, what could they have possibly given to Ramuh-Egi, Leviathan-Egi, and Shiva-Egi that would've made them feel different and be used differently? Why wouldn't we just pick which of the 6 did the most damage and only ever stick with that pet?

Additionally, I feel like the designers locked themselves into the mindset that summons were pets and that was it. It's only now that we've finally broken free from that mentality and have the freedom to see alternative ways of utilizing the primals we've seen in new ways.

I recognize that SMN is really lacking something right now, but I do think that the fertile land that the job has become will ultimately turn out better than it was in the past. It's a shame that it was released in a more bare-bones state and will likely stay that way for the next 2 years, but I am hopeful for 7.0 and beyond. Perhaps we might see some minor components get added or returned to SMN with the feedback around 6.3 perhaps? But it's hard to say.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Well the main issue as I see it is that, for the longest time, Egis as pets having different movesets was a glaring flaw in SMN's design. If I'm given the choice between pets that do different things, why would I ever summon anything but the strongest pet? That's why Garuda-Egi was, for the longest time, the only pet actually used by SMN ever. So come 3.0, what could they have possibly given to Ramuh-Egi, Leviathan-Egi, and Shiva-Egi that would've made them feel different and be used differently? Why wouldn't we just pick which of the 6 did the most damage and only ever stick with that pet?

Additionally, I feel like the designers locked themselves into the mindset that summons were pets and that was it. It's only now that we've finally broken free from that mentality and have the freedom to see alternative ways of utilizing the primals we've seen in new ways.

I recognize that SMN is really lacking something right now, but I do think that the fertile land that the job has become will ultimately turn out better than it was in the past. It's a shame that it was released in a more bare-bones state and will likely stay that way for the next 2 years, but I am hopeful for 7.0 and beyond. Perhaps we might see some minor components get added or returned to SMN with the feedback around 6.3 perhaps? But it's hard to say.

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I get it. What I’m saying is for the ogcd summons to appear and do a special attack. Not like Ifrit, Garuda and Titan when they appear and do their ultimate attack. Like, Lakshmi could appear and use Stotram for aoe. Maybe Susano could appear and use Stormsplitter for a single target attack, etc. So it’s not about using the best attacks because these will be ogcd for aoe and some for single target. That’s all. Some primals could even give little buffs. Gives summoner more flavor and could shake up their simple rotation quite a bit. I think at least.

I'm really glad about more and more people speaking up about the lack of complexity SMN has right now, and therefor lack of damage, too. I agree with OP, I would prefer more complexity and therefore more damage output instead of the rotation as it is right now.

When I say I want more complexity, I'm not saying it has to be super complicated like people considered it to be before. The best example for me is Reaper, it's fun, not hard to understand, yet engaging. I'd wish for SMN to be that way, too.

My suggestion is to implement some kind of build up until you can use Bahamut, so it feels more rewarding when you're using it.
Personally, I wouldn't mind some more casts as well, I am a caster main for a reason.
And yeah, I might be the only one, but in exchange for more casts, I'd like Ruin II or something similar back for more flexibility.

I agree that the current SMN is a good foundation, but it doesn't feel complete. I really, really hope that adjustments will be made, I don't want to lose the only job that interested me so much that I wanted to optimize it. It's hard to optimize if there's not much to learn.