Post EW, I still have Questions

So, Endwalker answered several questions I've had about events surrounding the final days and such. But it also left a few, as well as raising some, to me.

1. How did Emet and Lahabrea avoid being sundered?
1a. How is Elidibus unsundered when he's the heart of Zodiark and Zodiark is sundered???

2. Where was Azem during the Final Days and what were they doing?

3. What did Fandaniel mean when he said "Did Emet-Selch truly find a way...?" in response to hearing that Zenos has dreamed of the Final Days his whole life?

4. If tempering is an add-on to primal summoning and not an unavoidable requirement, then who included it in Zodiark's summoning and why?

5. Why does Azem seem to know about our pending presence in Pandaemonium, to the point they can (cryptically) tell Elidibus to be on the lookout for us? (And if they do, did they know we'd be in Elpis proper, too, and avoided us?)

6. And this might just be me, but why isn't Azem a proper character in their own right like Ardert, instead of being somehow determined by our CC choices in the future?

7. Was the moon ship idea ever supposed to be considered a viable option? I mean, they weren't remotely prepared despite 12k plus years. Also, nothing stopped Meteion from just redirecting her "gift" at whatever planet we landed on. Or the moon ship itself, though that possibly had an aetheric field properly shielding it. Was it just a play by Venat to give hope to people? Even Venat herself is like, "All I did in that time was prepare a way to flee? That seems dumb." And it wasn't even properly prepped, so...



I have a feeling the Pandeamonium raid is going to answer 4 and 5. (Current theory on 4 is that Lahabrea did it and that the trouble in Pan is his early tempering expermients running amok. Also there's vampires. For some reason.)

Rant about question 6:

With the addition of Azem seemingly knowing the future, or at least our specific movements in it, I am forming a crazy theory that the answer to 6 might be b/c we ARE Azem somehow? Not as in "we're a soul shard of them", but as in time travel is a loop and somehow we become them or end up creating them in our image or something?

There's also the fact that Azem was "less than half" Venat's age and yet surprisingly strong, a strength we have and which Venat immediately implies correlates to having "endured considerable hardship". And yet the society Azem is ostensibly from notabely doesn't have much hardship in it. Its the entire reason they were not able to cope with the despair Metion threw at them. Its also why Hermes was driven to despair: he seemed to be alone in feeling suffering. The Elpis blooms always being white indicated literally no one else felt such grief. While I find that difficult to believe, its what we're shown and told. So how'd such a young Azem grow so strong in such a society, then? What if their strength is from us... somehow?

Its crazy, and when it was just ShB I thought the devs were just being oddly selective about what they thought could break our immersion (Female WoL must apprently come from a female Azem, but having a male soul shard in Ardbert wasn't just as "weird" why???). However, now I'm not so sure??? lol

So yeah, least crazy option is we pass on our memories, via the Echo or a crystal, to a young pre-Venat Azem at some point. Most crazy is we (or an altered clone of us or something) ARE Azem.

Feel free to discuss or add your own questions.

About 5, we do get a premonition about the final days after Zodiark is killed and the watcher said that our echo granted that premonition to us. I myself don't find it too unlikely that Azem of the past had one of us helping Themis with Pandaemonium. *shrugs* or atleast be a possible reason as to why.

Also about the rant

I'm still going to highly doubt it since we would have to find some way to travel so far into the past. And I mean really far for that like way before Emet became Emet and quite possibly before our past life became Azem. We did travel with both Emet and Hythlodeaus and helped people. (It's what gave Emet the unanimous support to be given the seat of Emet Selch to begin with.) Next is unless we merge with all the other Shards then we would be too thin soul wise as well as aether wise to even really be able to do anything.

Plus if you remember since we've joined with Ardbert our soul is now denser than even what the sources people are. So the rejoining would still have to happen other wise when we are sundered our soul would be less dense after 9 rejoining as opposed to said being denser as the Nu Moh said after the fake ardbert appeared

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Also about the rant

I'm still going to highly doubt it since we would have to find some way to travel so far into the past. And I mean really far for that like way before Emet became Emet and quite possibly before our past life became Azem. We did travel with both Emet and Hythlodeaus and helped people. (It's what gave Emet the unanimous support to be given the seat of Emet Selch to begin with.) Next is unless we merge with all the other Shards then we would be too thin soul wise as well as aether wise to even really be able to do anything.

Plus if you remember since we've joined with Ardbert our soul is now denser than even what the sources people are. So the rejoining would still have to happen other wise when we are sundered our soul would be less dense after 9 rejoining as opposed to said being denser as the Nu Moh said after the fake ardbert appeared

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Oh, I know. Like I said, its a crazy idea at this point. I mean, I do wonder if we're going to end up merged with our other soul shards at some point, but even if we do, the time travel would be an issue. Also, if we do influence young Azem (or are them somehow) why don't we stop the Final Days entirely? Though... I suppose we're back to time being a loop again? It could tie into why Azem is just plain nowhere to be found during the whole thing.

7 is the only one that can be properly answered. Kind of.

Whether or not the moon exodus plan was really viable depends on whether or not Meteion's song of oblivion had to be directed. If so, escaping Etheirys to settle a distant, random planet she would need an unforeseen amount of time to find would work. If not, nope. We don't know one way or another though.

The moon wasn't fully finished because making it into an ark was retrofitting; originally it was nothing but Zodiark's prison, until thousands of years later Hydaelyn created the loporrits and charged them with making the moon inhabitable by the people of Etheriys. Besides which the moon is inhabitable, it's just not quite... to scale because the loporrits didn't know the modern people of Etheriys are a lot shorter than the Ancients. It doesn't have the creature comforts people are accustomed to because the loporrits got all their knowledge on modern Etheriys from the infamously austere Sharlayans, that's all. The main obstacle to the exodus is that there's no quick transit between the moon and the planet (other than the Tower of Babil, which wasn't completed until very recently and is dangerous to access besides).

The exodus was also the Plan B, to be executed only if the people of Etheriys wanted to flee rather than fight. Confronting pain and sorrow rather than running from it was kind of a major theme in Endwalker though, so...

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The moon wasn't fully finished because making it into an ark was retrofitting; originally it was nothing but Zodiark's prison, until thousands of years later Hydaelyn created the loporrits and charged them with making the moon inhabitable by the people of Etheriys.

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I thought Hydaelyn created the Lopporits with the moon?

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

I thought Hydaelyn created the Lopporits with the moon?

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After, not with. We don't have a precise point in time but the loporrits were created thousands of years after the Sundering and Zodiark's imprisonment, but before Allag launched Dalamud.

They tell you all this when you visit the moon.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

After, not with. We don't have a precise point in time but the loporrits were created thousands of years after the Sundering and Zodiark's imprisonment, but before Allag launched Dalamud.

They tell you all this when you visit the moon.

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I do not recall ever being told or having it implied the lopporits were created thousands of years after the moon was. Can you give me an idea where to look for that, beyond just the moon in general? Was it MSQ? Landscape quest dialogue? I assume its a lopporit that says it.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

1. How did Emet and Lahabrea avoid being sundered?
1a. How is Elisibus unsundered when he's the heart of Zodiark and Zodiark is sundered???

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We haven't learned why the unsundered are unsundered yet, but Elidibus was spat out of Zodiark before the Sundering. There was a good deal of time from the 2nd act of Zodiark to the Sundering. We don't know how much time, but it was at the very least enough for the Ancients to have their first big disagreement ever, Elidibus to eject himself to mediate, and Venat to gather her supporters and summon Hydaelyn.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

2. Where was Azem during the Final Days and what were they doing?

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No one knows yet.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

4. If tempering is an add-on to primal summoning and not an unavoidable requirement, then who included it in Zodiark's summoning and why?

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Part of tempering is the shift in your aether towards a certain element. It wasn't specifically built into Zodiark, but he is so powerful and aetherically dense that his summoning shifting the aether to those present to darkness was unavoidable. The degree to which they're tempered is debatable because of the fact they're Ancients and it wasn't intentional, but the Ascians still spent 12000 years praying to their "one true god" and talking about plunging the world into darkness etc. so it at least had some effect and thousands of years of doing this didn't help their mental state.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

6. And this might just be me, but why isn't Azem a proper character in their own right like Ardert, instead of being somehow determined by our CC choices in the future?

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I feel like Azem is closer to "us" specifically than Ardbert is. That's also why Azem's gender changes depending on your character. Plus Ardbert was created all the way back in Heavensward before they had even planned for Shadowbringers so him being the First's part of our soul was probably a retcon behind the scenes. From what was said during a Fan Fest, it seems that a lot of the writing isn't planned too far away and they leave just enough open threads for possible future plotlines. But now we'll probably never see Azem in person since they look like your character only if you play Hyur. It would be especially difficult to reconcile if you're a lalafell or hrothgar.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

1. How did Emet and Lahabrea avoid being sundered?
1a. How is Elisibus unsundered when he's the heart of Zodiark and Zodiark is sundered???

2. Where was Azem during the Final Days and what were they doing?

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Both or those could be explained by Venat knowing the future - they never really escaped, she spared em as she knew it was needed.

And Azem might have tried to find another way, or stayed back on her wish... we might learn it... as "we" somehow are involved on the raid as well...

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

I do not recall ever being told or having it implied the lopporits were created thousands of years after the moon was. Can you give me an idea where to look for that, beyond just the moon in general? Was it MSQ? Landscape quest dialogue? I assume its a lopporit that says it.

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OK, I was wrong.

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Originally Posted by Livingway

Well, it's not as if we've been waiting twelve thousand years to meet the people of Etheirys. Oh wait, we have!

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Regardless, I can understand why it wouldn't be ready. 12,000 years is a long time but turning a celestial body into a spaceship would be no mean feat... and, well, the loporrits are not the most, ah, sensible folk. Besides which it was ready, just not very comfortable, and the main obstacle was getting stuff up from Etheirys. (Domiciles were 3x larger than necessary.)

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

snip

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I'll see if I can answer some of these.

1. We don't know how those 3 avoided the sundering, although Elidibus was seperated from Zodiark at the time, hence why he wasn't sundered with Zodiark.

2. Azem rejected Zodiark but didn't respond to Venat's solution, so chances are Azem was going around helping people in their own way.

3. We don't know for certain what Fandaniel was refering to and Zenos himself never cared enough about it. My personal thought was that they were refering to the echo being in a garlean, the only race unable to manipulate aether.

4. Tempering was an unintentional side effect of Zodiark's summoning as nothing close to that scale had ever been created before. When the ascians later took note of that, they exaggerated the effects in the rituals they taught the various beast tribes.

5. We don't know if Azem does. Themis assumes we are the star reffered to and we just roll with that because its convenient. It is quite possible that Azem was talking about someone or something else.

6. Roleplay purposes I'd wager. Both the WoL and Ardbert came from Azem's soul but they are individuals in their own right, so it is up to the player to interpret if they are very akin to Azem or only superfically so.

7. The Moon ship was to give the people of the source more time. Hydaelyn believed that people could defeat Meteion in time, but she did not know how much would be required so the ship would extend the deadline they had. Also yes the moonship does have a lot of aether on it via the crystals that, among other things provide breathable air.

I hope this helps.

Appreciate the responses.

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Originally Posted by Layte_Aeon

4. Tempering was an unintentional side effect of Zodiark's summoning as nothing close to that scale had ever been created before. When the ascians later took note of that, they exaggerated the effects in the rituals they taught the various beast tribes.

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Maybe, but Livingway presents "something on the scale of zodiark" as a specific example of summoning when she reveals tempering was an add-on. And she says that, if you summoned Zodiark the original way (the best way, accept no substitutes), then she says you might feel a little tug, not that you'd be tempered. So, therefore summoning Zodiark still shouldn't have unintentionally tempered any ascians.

Assuming that Livingway is right, the tempering in Zodiark's summoning had to be done on purpose by someone. And Lahabrea was the one responsible for coming up with Zodiark in the first place. Take the fact that every encounter we've ever had with him or mentioning him points to him being a certified jerk who likes using people and powertripping, and I think we have good reason to suspect it was on purpose and he did it.

Pandemonium spoilers:

Pandemonium is supporting this so far, too, imo, with Eric's description of Lahabrea. Though, I am also half expecting to find out Eric will be the Lahabrea we actually know from the future, taking up his father's office in the end or something. So I'm trying to ignore his account for the moment and just go off our personal experience with Lahabrea.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

5. Why does Azem seem to know about our pending presence in Pandaemonium, to the point they can (cryptically) tell Elidibus to be on the lookout for us? (And if they do, did they know we'd be in Elpis proper, too, and avoided us?)

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I think you're over thinking this part of the story. The actual quote, after mistaking us for Azem, is, "He/She told me a falling star would appear before me, and I suppose you must be it. Truth be told, I did not expect the expression to be so...literal."

None of this says Azem saw the future and was being cryptic, nor was Azem avoiding us. It appears that Themis doesn't know how to go about investigating Pandaemonium and asked Azem for advice and Azem's advice was look for a falling star--in other words look to heavens for the answer or you'll figure it out when you get there. Azem was just being an encouraging friend, they didn't know the future, and this is pretty on point for the Ancient that can call their friends to their side.

Themis' line about the expression being literal is ironic because you fall out the sky the exact moment he sets out to investigate Pandaemonium.

This is all supposed to be a funny coincidence in the "meet cute" sort of way.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

Maybe, but Livingway presents "something on the scale of zodiark" as a specific example of summoning when she reveals tempering was an add-on. And she says that, if you summoned Zodiark the original way (the best way, accept no substitutes), then she says you might feel a little tug, not that you'd be tempered. So, therefore summoning Zodiark still shouldn't have unintentionally tempered any ascians.

Assuming that Livingway is right, the tempering in Zodiark's summoning had to be done on purpose by someone. And Lahabrea was the one responsible for coming up with Zodiark in the first place. Take the fact that every encounter we've ever had with him or mentioning him points to him being a certified jerk who likes using people and powertripping, and I think we have good reason to suspect it was on purpose and he did it.

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Livingway is typically right, but has a gift of understatement; I'd believe them in terms of saying something happened, but assuming 'a little tug' meant exactly that is rather missing the forest for the trees with who's saying it.

I suppose I can't rule out the notion of 'Lahabrea did it because Lahabrea's a git', but I'd caution that you need more evidence than that before hitching your wagon to it, lest you get disappointed when the near-baseless assertion turns out untrue.

Hell, Pandaemonium as-is should be warning you, I'd think.

We don't even know who in the story is the Lahabrea we've dealt with, if we've even met him yet, so we can't really say 'yeah, X character is someone who'd do something like that in the future'.

The more I’m going over the bits and pieces of the Azem story - the more I’m getting on board the “We are Azem, and we go back in time to become Azem” train.

It would not be hard for us to “collect” our other reflection shards - starting with the Void - which seems to be one of our next destinations.

Us going back in time could be “end game” expansion material - leading to us getting sundered - to start all over again.

Or, we go back in time after collecting all our bits and pieces - with a plan to somehow both let the sundering happen - but also save everyone at the same time (possibly using a giant time travel robot city that can “pause time”).

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Originally Posted by Shookbeast

The more I’m going over the bits and pieces of the Azem story - the more I’m getting on board the “We are Azem, and we go back in time to become Azem” train.

It would not be hard for us to “collect” our other reflection shards - starting with the Void - which seems to be one of our next destinations.

Us going back in time could be “end game” expansion material - leading to us getting sundered - to start all over again.

Or, we go back in time after collecting all our bits and pieces - with a plan to somehow both let the sundering happen - but also save everyone at the same time (possibly using a giant time travel robot city that can “pause time”).

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You do realize that to collect those soul shards then that soul would have to be like Ardbert was on the first. Dead, wandering the world as an unseen spirit and not in the aetheial sea... meaning this for the other shards and not the 13th. We'd also have to know exactly which soul was ours (see the color of our soul) or do a rejoining of our own.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

You do realize that to collect those soul shards then that soul would have to be like Ardbert was on the first. Dead, wandering the world as an unseen spirit and not in the aetheial sea... meaning this for the other shards and not the 13th. We'd also have to know exactly which soul was ours (see the color of our soul) or do a rejoining of our own.

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Yep! Sounds exactly like expansion material to me.

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Originally Posted by Shookbeast

Yep! Sounds exactly like expansion material to me.

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/facepalm. Our WoL would not do that he/she would have to KILL that other person. Or as I said do what Ardbert did and Kill themselves. That is not expansion material

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Originally Posted by Rannie

/facepalm. Our WoL would not do that he/she would have to KILL that other person. Or as I said do what Ardbert did and Kill themselves. That is not expansion material

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Not necessarily. Or at least they wouldn’t have to be the one to kill them. There are any number of ways the writers could get us moving in this direction.

Also, who is to say all the Azem reflections are done being Azem? Time moves differently on each reflection. On one reflection, it might’ve only been a couple years after the Sundering - and that Azem meets us and and willingly rejoins.

Or, on another reflection, we find out Azem is still around - and is evil - and has been collecting shards of their own to become more powerful and live longer. When we defeat them, we get their collected “Azem bits” and become less-sundered.

Or, there’s an expansion where we have to hop into the lifestream - and find a couple Azem bits there that want to join us.

Lots of options (:

Again they would still have to die or be killed in some way, the WoL again would have to ALSO know exactly which person it is that is our shard. The WoL has NEVER had that ability. Ardbert when he was acting as a "Warrior of Darkness" was not evil and was easily for swayed back to our side of thinking after a couple fight with us. Being a helpful person is ingrained into our soul.

The time dilation doesn't completely mean that nothing has moved at all. If that had been the case Emet would not have made the comment about how the other shards had turned out differently in the customs and etc. Meaning he has visited the other ones that are left besides the void and time has still passed and is not stuck 12000 years in said past. Btw that's only 4 nit including the void

Hopping into the lifestream would not work either. Due to the fact the lifestream itself was sundered as well. There is also the running risk of staying in the life stream and being killed also. We again if it where even possible to traverse the life stream we would still need to know exactly which so we're were after and usually that via color.

Edit: in case you are wondering how I know each life stream is seperate. Hydaelyn herself made mention of the fact that she brought our Minfillia from the First's Lifestream/ aetherial to the sources so she could rest and be reborn on the source as well as Bringing Emets other wise both of them would have stayed in the first

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Again they would still have to die or be killed in some way, the WoL again would have to ALSO know exactly which person it is that is our shard. The WoL has NEVER had that ability. Ardbert when he was acting as a "Warrior of Darkness" was not evil and was easily for swayed back to our side of thinking after a couple fight with us. Being a helpful person is ingrained into our soul.

The time dilation doesn't completely mean that nothing has moved at all. If that had been the case Emet would not have made the comment about how the other shards had turned out differently in the customs and etc. Meaning he has visited the other ones that are left besides the void and time has still passed and is not stuck 12000 years in said past. Btw that's only 4 nit including the void

Hopping into the lifestream would not work either. Due to the fact the lifestream itself was sundered as well. There is also the running risk of staying in the life stream and being killed also. We again if it where even possible to traverse the life stream we would still need to know exactly which so we're were after and usually that via color.

Edit: in case you are wondering how I know each life stream is seperate. Hydaelyn herself made mention of the fact that she brought our Minfillia from the First's Lifestream/ aetherial to the sources so she could rest and be reborn on the source as well as Bringing Emets other wise both of them would have stayed in the first

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None of this makes it impossible. Just difficult (:

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Originally Posted by Shookbeast

None of this makes it impossible. Just difficult (:

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There comes a time where too difficult in writing becomes impossible, implausible and willingness to suspend disbelief is being pushed too far. This would be that case and would make for terrible writing because of all the, and pardon my language it's not meant to be offensive towards anyone, shit they would have to pull out of their ass to even try to make it work. Especially without pissing people off.

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Originally Posted by Shookbeast

The more I’m going over the bits and pieces of the Azem story - the more I’m getting on board the “We are Azem, and we go back in time to become Azem” train.

It would not be hard for us to “collect” our other reflection shards - starting with the Void - which seems to be one of our next destinations.

Us going back in time could be “end game” expansion material - leading to us getting sundered - to start all over again.

Or, we go back in time after collecting all our bits and pieces - with a plan to somehow both let the sundering happen - but also save everyone at the same time (possibly using a giant time travel robot city that can “pause time”).

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Born to be kings.
Princes of the universe.
Fighting and free.
Got your world in my hand.
I'm here for your love and I'll make my stand.
We were born to be princes of the universe.

Sorry could not resist making this reference. But it does seems like Highlander story. Honestly i have no idea what to do with reflections story wise. Would opening portal to on not cause semi rejoining?

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Originally Posted by Pofruin

Born to be kings.
Princes of the universe.
Fighting and free.
Got your world in my hand.
I'm here for your love and I'll make my stand.
We were born to be princes of the universe.

Sorry could not resist making this reference. But it does seems like Highlander story. Honestly i have no idea what to do with reflections story wise. Would opening portal to on not cause semi rejoining?

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I have princes of the universe stuck in my head now... and I love the song and Queen

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Originally Posted by Rannie

There comes a time where too difficult in writing becomes impossible, implausible and willingness to suspend disbelief is being pushed too far. This would be that case and would make for terrible writing because of all the, and pardon my language it's not meant to be offensive towards anyone, shit they would have to pull out of their ass to even try to make it work. Especially without pissing people off.

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I’m not sure what you consider silly when we have moon rabbits (;

I think it’s entirely plausible - and to be honest they’ve laid all the ground work for it. The game is a story about us - and Azem is a big part of us. The writers have already started a through-line on our character collecting Azem-bits (between the rejoinings and Arbert). We have several characters capable of peering/escorting us into the lifestream. We already know we’re going to the other reflections. Lots of chances and lots of ways to do this. Of course they’ll be hard - it wouldn’t be worth an expansion of it wasn’t (:

I’d wager we’re gonna collect an Azem bit every expansion or so - slowly increasing our power. (There are only five more to collect, right?).

I wouldn’t put it past the writers coming up with a shortcut either. Something like a “bad” Azem (they could just be very upset about the sundering) who already has absorbed a couple other Azem pieces. Our character fighting “ourselves” seems very on point for this story. We already sort of did it even with Arbert - and the writers love to repeat and echo story elements in new ways.

We already have a possible Azem reincarnated from the Void ready to team up with. Cylva. She fits the bill. Powerful warrior. Collected a team of friends. Then she took a tragic turn. Wouldn’t be hard to see an expansion where we go back to the Void with her. Learn the truth about her soul - and then she sacrifices herself to help us fight a big bad. (Hey. Maybe it’s the other Azem collecting Azem souls. Cylva gives us her soul - and then We defeat evil Azem - and get all our souls-bits back in one expansion. Easy peasy.)

There’s lots of ways to do this. And the signs seem to point to it being a part of the long-term storyline.

The rabbits on the moon are very specifically a call back to FFIV due to hummingways that lived on the moon in that game.

Btw Cylva is not our soul shard from the 13th and to prove it in one go is Ardbert while he was a soul he was never drawn to her while he wandered as a spirit on his home world for 100 years. However as soon as we showed up his spirit was pulled back into focus and he was drawn to us as if he had been caught by a fishing pole and was being reeled in (almost his exact words). We also were the only one who could see him as he walked with us even on the first. She never saw him.

Anyway I'm going to bed now. I work tonight and barely got sleep yesterday due to a stupid bout of insomnia. Good night ^_^

The problem with "Azem is actually future WoL" is when you play anything that isn't a hyur. All of the Ancients are hyur with elezen proportions and when you play anything that isn't hyur they remark that your soul is Azem's but you look weird.

In regards to number four, a theory. Done right, Zodiark would not have tempered anyone, but due to the Final Days messing up everyone's creation magicks it made the summon faulty in such a way that it tempered them. Possibly "reverse engineered" by Lahabrea for the Tempering we've come to know and hate.

Also, Azem is about 20 malms deep in the earth with a shovel, having learned that the sound was coming up from the star and deciding his/her best course of action was to find it and punch it.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

In regards to number four, a theory. Done right, Zodiark would not have tempered anyone, but due to the Final Days messing up everyone's creation magicks it made the summon faulty in such a way that it tempered them. Possibly "reverse engineered" by Lahabrea for the Tempering we've come to know and hate.

Also, Azem is about 20 malms deep in the earth with a shovel, having learned that the sound was coming up from the star and deciding his/her best course of action was to find it and punch it.

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i can imagine it now:
"i load 16 tons, and what do i get?
another day older and closer to this thingy.
dear emet, dont you call me cause i cant answer,
i have this random apocalypse to end"

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Originally Posted by Rannie

The rabbits on the moon are very specifically a call back to FFIV due to hummingways that lived on the moon in that game.

Btw Cylva is not our soul shard from the 13th and to prove it in one go is Ardbert while he was a soul he was never drawn to her while he wandered as a spirit on his home world for 100 years. However as soon as we showed up his spirit was pulled back into focus and he was drawn to us as if he had been caught by a fishing pole and was being reeled in (almost his exact words). We also were the only one who could see him as he walked with us even on the first. She never saw him.

Anyway I'm going to bed now. I work tonight and barely got sleep yesterday due to a stupid bout of insomnia. Good night ^_^

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Get some good sleep! I understand the insomnia.

For Cylva, it’s an easy fix (who is just an example, but still an easy fix). Our WOL is more dense being several times rejoined. Everyone comments on how bright we are. Cylva is 1/14th an Azem - thus less bright, so Ardbert was never drawn to her.

Mind you, this is all conjecture - and just an example. Like I said, we’ve got tons of options.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

The problem with "Azem is actually future WoL" is when you play anything that isn't a hyur. All of the Ancients are hyur with elezen proportions and when you play anything that isn't hyur they remark that your soul is Azem's but you look weird.

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I think (possibly) that we got the “Ancients are embarrassed by physical transformation” storyline for exactly this reason. Original Azem follows their heart - and doesn’t mind stepping outside the norms. The stuffy Ancients say that Azem is weird.

My bet is that Azem takes our form (or something very, very similar) and says that this is how they feel most like themselves. It could turn out not that Azem looks like us, but that we look like Azem. So, when/if we meet them, they just use our model with a few light changes.

Or, if the time travel theory holds true - Azem looks like us, because we are literally Azem. We go back in time to finish the loop. We adventure around the world of the Ancients. We eventually meet Venat and all our buddies. We cause trouble. We laugh, we cry. And then we get sundered - starting the whole cycle all over again. (Although I think it’s possible the writers are working toward an “out” on that, so our WOL can keep on adventuring after. Look to G’raha for possible answers, I think.)

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Originally Posted by Rannie

/facepalm. Our WoL would not do that he/she would have to KILL that other person. Or as I said do what Ardbert did and Kill themselves. That is not expansion material

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My theory for how this could happen is that one of the Azem shards goes bad, for some reason, and desires more power. They travel reflections, killing and absorbing the other Azem souls till its just us left. They leave us for last b/c logically we're the densest soul and most powerful to take on. When all the soul shards are in just two beings, us and the evil Azem shard, then we end up fighting and they lose and die and we (by choice or not) absorb their soul. Boom: 14/14 soul shards.

The Garlean instance and situtation gave us a chilling preview of just how bad it could be if our strength was turned towards evil ends, how no one could really stop us. This would just build off that. Also, evil twins is a tried and true trope. (Not that they'd strictly be a twin in this scenario, obviously.)

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

In regards to number four, a theory. Done right, Zodiark would not have tempered anyone, but due to the Final Days messing up everyone's creation magicks it made the summon faulty in such a way that it tempered them. Possibly "reverse engineered" by Lahabrea for the Tempering we've come to know and hate.

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Possible.

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Also, Azem is about 20 malms deep in the earth with a shovel, having learned that the sound was coming up from the star and deciding his/her best course of action was to find it and punch it.

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XD Headcanon accepted till we get a real explanation. Speaking as a WAR main, I understand the value of punching something in the face as an opener. rofl

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

The problem with "Azem is actually future WoL" is when you play anything that isn't a hyur. All of the Ancients are hyur with elezen proportions and when you play anything that isn't hyur they remark that your soul is Azem's but you look weird.

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Thought it was Elezen that Hyth says the proportions are perfect or something? Cus the ancients have elezen body types. I don't think any of the commentary is meant to say we physoically look like Azem, though. The language is ambiguous enough that I think it can (and does) mean our soul looks like them. The comments on shape are just cus Hades was resizing us and we don't come out looking remotely "proper" unless hyur (no comment) or elezen (perfect except for the ears), but its compared to ancients in general, not Azem.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

Though it was Elezen that Hyth says the proportions are perfect or something? Cus the ancients have elezen body types. I don't think any of the commentary is meant to say we physoically look like Azem, though. The language is ambiguous enough that I think it can (and does) mean our soul looks like them. The comments on shape are just cus Hades was resizing us and we don't come out looking remotely "proper" unless hyur (no comment) or elezen (perfect except for the ears), but its compared to ancients in general, not Azem.

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Side-NPCs mention the ears being off if you’re elezen. If you’re something else your “bestial features” may get mentioned.

I was under the impression that "spitting image" referred to our appearance rather than the color of our soul since I thought most Ancients had trouble with soul-seeing. But I guess not if Hrothgar get that same line.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

2. Where was Azem during the Final Days and what were they doing?

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I believe this thread was left open for another possible plot point in the future. For example if the new phase of the story needs to present a villain from long ago with a complicated history they can now say, while the Hydaelyn/Zodiark drama played out Azem was trying to solve this other problem instead because greater stakes.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

I believe this thread was left open for another possible plot point in the future. For example if the new phase of the story needs to present a villain from long ago with a complicated history they can now say, while the Hydaelyn/Zodiark drama played out Azem was trying to solve this other problem instead because greater stakes.

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Well, as someone pointed out, we heard that there was a scream from the earth that happened during the Ancients' final days, but we never really experience that in ours'. I recall one mention of there being a sound of some kind before the sky turned red over Thavnair, but that's all and its secondhand. Anima's tempering yell is the only scream-related thing I really remember happening in this storyline. So maybe there is something else that was agitated by Meteion's dynamis assault that everyone overlooked during the first apocalypse, but we'll have to deal with at some point.

Or maybe the scream is just the sound we hear in the echo vision of the moon turning red as we stare at it from our rooms and that was just all we're getting. If you're wearing headphones, that sound can RIP your eardrums if you aren't careful.


Oh, and i thought of another question:

- What was Fandaniel reminded of when he examined the warding scale our girl Nidhana had in Tower of Zot? He said it was "almost identical to" something, but never really expressed his thoughts beyond that that I saw.

I am thinking he *maybe* meant the radios in Garlemald? But that would imply he knew the radios helped shield people from tempering. And did nothing about it. But why would he know that, much less allow it. I mean, I've been assuming that the radios shielding people was a happy accident and nothing more, but if Fandaniel knew enough about them to know how they worked and see similarities with the scales... I don't know what I'm thinking about this, its just weird.

Assuming I'm even right and he meant the radios. Could there have been something else in Hermes'/Amon's experience that he's referring to?

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

What was Fandaniel reminded of when he examined the warding scale our girl Nidhana had in Tower of Zot? He said it was "almost identical to" something, but never really expressed his thoughts beyond that that I saw.

I am thinking he *maybe* meant the radios in Garlemald? But that would imply he knew the radios helped shield people from tempering. And did nothing about it. But why would he know that, much less allow it. I mean, I've been assuming that the radios shielding people was a happy accident and nothing more, but if Fandaniel knew enough about them to know how they worked and see similarities with the scales... I don't know what I'm thinking about this, its just weird.

Assuming I'm even right and he meant the radios. Could there have been something else in Hermes'/Amon's experience that he's referring to?

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My first thought was Owen, that one Allagan hyur whose research into tempering and how to cure the tempered, G'raha, Alisaie and the WOL use to prove that the porxies could be used to cure the tempered. If you go and watch the cutscene with the recording in it, Owen outright says that he and his colleagues created a tempering protection device at the cost of many researchers. Considering that we find the node with his recording imbedded in it in Azys La, where they were known to experiment with Dragons, it isn't a stretch to imagine they the Allagans also used dragon scales to ward off tempering, albeit unwillingly harvested scales. Strengthening this connection is the fact that Owen says it was Amon himself who put a halt to his plans of trying to cure those tempered that could be cured. And for those of us that remember said cutscene it served as a teaser for Fandaniel being Amon, I remember wondering what connection could Fandaniel have had to Allag at the time.

tldr: Its pretty cut and dry that Amon/Fandaniel is referring to an Allagan researcher called Owen who created his own warding devices while investigating the tempered.

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Originally Posted by Kordarion

My first thought was Owen, that one Allagan hyur whose research into tempering and how to cure the tempered, G'raha, Alisaie and the WOL use to prove that the porxies could be used to cure the tempered. If you go and watch the cutscene with the recording in it, Owen outright says that he and his colleagues created a tempering protection device at the cost of many researchers. Considering we find the node with his recording imbedded in it in Azys La, where they were known to experiment with Dragons, it isn't a stretch to imagine they the Allagans also used dragon scales to ward off tempering, albeit unwillingly harvested. Strengthening this connection is the fact that Owen says it was Amon himself who put a halt to his plans of trying to cure those tempered that could be cured. And for those of us that remember said cutscene it served as a teaser for Fandaniel being Amon, I remember wondering what connection could Fandaniel have had to Allag at the time.

tldr: Its pretty cut and dry that Amon/Fandaniel is referring to an Allagan researcher called Owen who created his own warding devices while investigating the tempered.

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Ah, right. Good call. That's almost definitely it.

To throw an extra tangle of connections into the "something resembling the warding scale":

- the ore in the radios is mined in Corvos

- there are Allagan ruins in Corvos

- Corvos is near Thavnair and may be geologically similar

- the alchemists were experimenting with giantsgall ore for the talismans

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Originally Posted by Iscah

To throw an extra tangle of connections into the "something resembling the warding scale":

- the ore in the radios is mined in Corvos

- there are Allagan ruins in Corvos

- Corvos is near Thavnair and may be geologically similar

- the alchemists were experimenting with giantsgall ore for the talismans

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What do we know about giantsgall? Other than it is aerherically conductive. Do we have info from the studios quests or anything else? Like why it’s called Giantsgall in the first place? I’m guessing it might be related to the giant “blade” in Thavnair, but I didn’t get a chance to read the pop up bubble the one time vaarshan mentions what the story is with that thing during our hamza ride.