Gap Closer/Backflip with Potency, do you like them?

In this game, it is kinda rare to see Gap Closer/Backflip to be utilized as, well, something that cut down/make distance. Most of them are ogcd with potency, and if it is ogcd with potency, people will use them in rotation no matter how small potency they offer.



To make sure that people still have their movement skills up when situations call, SE adds charges to those skills, so you can use one charge (or two in Warrior's case), and save one for when you need it.


Personally, I don't like this design. Monk used to have their gap-closer with potency, and I always feel clunky and weird to use a gap-closer when you are already next to the enemy like 95% of the time. When SE changes it into a pure gap-closer with zero potency, the skill feels really great to use and I know it is always available for me when situation calls, instead of having to bother with another cooldown timer.



And you have Red Mage. They now have two charges for their gap-closer/gap-maker, and a shared-cooldown ogcd that allow you to stay instead of backflip away into danger zone. Maybe SE can nuke that shared-cooldown ogcd if there are no potency in those movement skills, and people only utilize them when they want to gap-close for melee combo, or backflip away from a close-range telegraph.


The only gap-closers that makes sense are Dragoon's jumps cuz their jump attacks are so iconic that I don't think you can get away with with zero-potency jump (save for backflip cuz it is a backflip).


And let's forget about Dark Knight and their, cough, Enhanced Unmend, cough.

Depends. RDM feels good to attack with potency since the Melee combo requires to be at close range, so it feels like you start your melee rotation specifically with the gap closer after dualcasting, but aren't punished if you want to add an extra oGCD between your melee combo if you don't plan on staying near the boss after. It gives a lot of flexibility how you want to use the skills. RDM having 2 separate charges for gap closing and disengaging removes the issue of using the stacks specifically for damage since you can always hold one for gap closing and disengaging instead of burning it all. The toolkit would feel a bit more empty without it IMO.

For SAM, it's a bit different because you only want to disengage when there's an AoE or a mechanic to move away from the boss. Having Enhanced ranged attack feels good since you can dash out, attack, and then dash back in. It's sorta like RPR in this regard. It feels good when you can use your toolkit right as it adds a layer of complexity to optimization and doesn't feel like you're unable to do anything if you have to move out of melee range for any reason.

MNK not having only shoulder tackle feels good because Thunderclap can target allies and shoulder tackle cannot be used to dash out of range. It works more like Aetherial Manipulation in that regard since the mobility tool is not always used to target an enemy. This enables the skill to have a multipurpose use with more mobility around. The only difference between MNK and a lot of other jobs is a lack of ranged attack to fall back on demand, so Thunderclap makes mobility feel a lot better than Shoulder Tackle when you need to dash in and out quickly to resume your damage at lower levels imo.

MNK having SSS originally made it so you didn't need to get an oGCD disengage, you'd just use that instead to run outside. Thunderclap essentially smoothens this process a bit if you need to move farther than what SSS's increased movement speed would cover.

I like backflips with potency and without potency, because both can be used for mobility.

A lot of time in dungeons, in order to keep up with the tank while also still AOEing the mobs while the groups move, I will use the RDM backflip off of a mob to catch up with the tank. I also use it when solo running old dungeons for Wonderous Tails to backflip away from monsters as I reach them. Sure, it's only speeding up things a little, but I do like to get my stuff done quickly. Mainly so I can spend more time canoodling with my GF.

I loathe them especially now that most gap closer etc have 2 or 3 stacks so you feel you are going to lose damage if you do not start moving the cooldown...

Using an utility movement tool point blank just for damage feels weird, it is probably why i feel much better with Monk's new Thunderclap.

RDM is a weird case for me because unless i really need to, i always stick to Engagement over Displacement now that both have same damage and because the former is NOT a movement tool, i feel way better but at same time those 2 buttons shares the same recast timer so a bit planning or see the situation of the battle.

I really dislike them.

As others raid, RDM is a different case, as it makes sense to use them exactly in combination with the melee combo and not just whenever, so it makes sense for them to have potency.

But for example for PLD I always feel weird having to weave the gap closer in the normal rotation because it does damage, no matter how tiny, and being maybe displaced a bit from where I should be (in trash packs situations, when avoiding an aoe or something) or just not having it avalaible when I actually need it as gap closer. I'd rather they'd stay as pure gap closer and something you actually use when you need one, rather than a factor in your dps.

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Originally Posted by Jettinson

I loathe them especially now that most gap closer etc have 2 or 3 stacks so you feel you are going to lose damage if you do not start moving the cooldown...

Using an utility movement tool point blank just for damage feels weird, it is probably why i feel much better with Monk's new Thunderclap.

RDM is a weird case for me because unless i really need to, i always stick to Engagement over Displacement now that both have same damage and because the former is NOT a movement tool, i feel way better but at same time those 2 buttons shares the same recast timer so a bit planning or see the situation of the battle.

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The whole point of stacks is so you DONT have to use them on cooldown. So long as that cooldown is ticking you're not wasting damage, it's only a dps loss if all charges are capped.
So you can safely spend one and save the other for when you need it for movement.

I like them because it gives you an extra ogcd to weave while reducing button bloat. Especially on tanks.
GNB for example has a burst rhythm with Continuation, but for those skills without a Continuation proc you can weave in the gap closer.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

The whole point of stacks is so you DONT have to use them on cooldown. So long as that cooldown is ticking you're not wasting damage, it's only a dps loss if all charges are capped.
So you can safely spend one and save the other for when you need it for movement.

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Maybe i didn't say correctly, i meant pretty much on occasion of when i have full stacks and because now most of the movement tools have 2 stacks or 3 like Warrior, you gotta use 1 to get the cooldown going but regardless i hate that for damage purposes.

I don't mind them as long as they have charges, allowing for up to their cooldown's time in flexibility.

No. En Avant is the best gap-closer IMO given its simplicity. It's always there when you want to use it, not there to be weaved into your damage and then be missing in an emergency.

I swear if you DPS mains get us Tank mains gapclosers changed there will be riots!!

But in all seriousness I prefer throwing my gap closer into my damage rotation, I'm not using it for anything else in most fight, including savage.. if I needed the extra movement that much I'd pop sprint.. besides using the gap closer on GNB was just about the only thing I could do as the rest of the kit was mostly GCDs

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Originally Posted by Jettinson

Maybe i didn't say correctly, i meant pretty much on occasion of when i have full stacks and because now most of the movement tools have 2 stacks or 3 like Warrior, you gotta use 1 to get the cooldown going but regardless i hate that for damage purposes.

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But, as Seraphor said, that's the point. If there were no charges it would be worse because you would have to use them exactly when they finish cooling down, every time, to maximize their damage contribution and you would never use them for the movement. Giving them charges lets you actually use them for the movement if you need to.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

No. En Avant is the best gap-closer IMO given its simplicity. It's always there when you want to use it, not there to be weaved into your damage and then be missing in an emergency.

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That's some strange reasoning, considering rangers are the most mobile role in the game even without movement actions, and they would be the least inconvenienced by having to use movement actions on cooldown for their damage.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

But, as Seraphor said, that's the point. If there were no charges it would be worse because you would have to use them exactly when they finish cooling down, every time, to maximize their damage contribution and you would never use them for the movement. Giving them charges lets you actually use them for the movement if you need to.

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I know but that's also why i prefer Thunderclap over other stuff. You both explained it well and made the point, i just can't enjoy that in general.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

No. En Avant is the best gap-closer IMO given its simplicity. It's always there when you want to use it, not there to be weaved into your damage and then be missing in an emergency.

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Shukuchi is the superior 'gap closer'. It's so easy to move around the arena with that thing

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Originally Posted by Rongway

That's some strange reasoning, considering rangers are the most mobile role in the game even without movement actions, and they would be the least inconvenienced by having to use movement actions on cooldown for their damage.

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Ranger? I think you mean DNC. :p I've had my narrow moments, most recently in the Rabanastre alliance raids with vast arenas.

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Originally Posted by icrot

Shukuchi is the superior 'gap closer'. It's so easy to move around the arena with that thing

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Don't you need to place that one though? :D

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

Ranger?

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He's referring to the role. Ranged Physical -> Rangers.

I quite like having potency on my mobility tools

As someone who always prefers to move rather than eat an aoe, the doing damage part to rengage is nice. Not to mention i can toss it in a burst window if its got spare stacks. You only need 1 gap closer at a time

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

Don't you need to place that one though? :D

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That's why I said 'gap closer' and not gap closer. ;)

It was just a joke, I love that skill.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

rangers

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

Ranger?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

He's referring to the role. Ranged Physical -> Rangers.

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Yes, that.

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Originally Posted by icrot

Shukuchi is the superior 'gap closer'. It's so easy to move around the arena with that thing

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

Don't you need to place that one though? :D

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A note about Shukuchi with no judgment as to its quality vs other movement actions:
You can use the new gtoff argument to use it with a single click/press. It will target your mouse cursor location immediately without waiting for confirmation, and if you have the ground target limit range option on, gtoff will respect this and activate at max distance if your mouse cursor is too far away.

Code:

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/ac Shukuchi gtoff

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Shukuchi is so much easier to use with the new ground targetting options, the only problem is you need to go in and turn those options on as for some ridiculous reason they're not default.

I can just tell you all play on mouse and keyboard to be praising Shukuchi... /s

that aside, I do think gap closers should not, generally, have potencies attached to them. A good example of this, I think, is pre-EW Warrior. It had a potency and you could use it for damage if you wanted to/could, but instead of having charges, it cost gauge and you likely would have something better to use gauge on instead of that if you needed damage, while also not costing so much gauge that you'd have the risk of not having it available if you needed to gap close. Charges are... fine, they're not horrible, you can always just save one to gap close and the rest for damage, but I don't feel like it's the best option available. That's, obviously, Elusive Jump. The best skill in the game. 0% chance of throwing yourself off an edge!

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Originally Posted by hfang

I can just tell you all play on mouse and keyboard to be praising Shukuchi... /s

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Console Shukuchi player here. Have you tried the new ground target options?

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Have you tried the new ground target options?

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Yeah! It's much better, actually, I was joking. I'm not very used to it as I haven't played Ninja all that much, but I found that using a simple macro like /ac Shukuchi <t> has been working the best for me (and makes it feel like a "regular" gap closer)

Honestly personally not a fan of "Utility" related things like mobility being tied into a damage OGCD, i'd rather they just be a second ogcd or have the potency/charge concept baked into the mainline one like upheaval on Warrior and leave them as a utility button you hit occasionally when needed, especially if they get more flexibility like moving to teammates as Thunderclap did

I don't like it being the only option for a gap closer, altho I prefer teleports like on NIN it gives you more control.
Teleports do feel a bit clunky at times tho, like sometimes you click and nothing happens.

I would rather pretty much every gap closer to do no damage and just be there when you need it for utility
Mainly for Tanks,Dragoon just needs a elusive dive that goes forward not to rely on spine shatter

About Shukuchi:I always used it with the macro that makes it a targeted ability. I do the same for most ground-targeted abilities.

... A good thread?

Yes, I hate gapcloser with damage. If they had some form of utility I would be okay with it. It could be visually good for a PLD to dash to a buddy and give it a shield.
But if it has damage, it will be used for damage.

MNK, BLM and SGE are really satisfying to play thanks to that mobility that rewards ingenuity.
Plus, you can GCD -> thunderclap on a lalafell -> pet the lalafell -> thunderclap back to boss -> GCD.
It's a strong, scary power move that proves your superiority much more than any legend title.

And that is no sarcasm.

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Originally Posted by Baxcel

I swear if you DPS mains get us Tank mains gapclosers changed there will be riots!!

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Nah I think they want them to be easier to use since they extended the range of them.

I kind of like them all in aggregate. I would not like any one single approach universally.

That is to say, if we let the camp of people who want all gap closers to have no potency design the game, it would be a lot more boring.

But like, I also enjoy Thunderclap existing, or directional movements like Ingress. I think the game should employ a variety of ways for characters to get around. For the gap closers that do damage, there could be more variety. Like, maybe one with a minimum distance so that you don't want to use it in a melee rotation. Similarly, while what they did with RDM is fine, they could have also just made their gap close part of their initial sword combo GCD. I think there's so many ways to go about it. I loathe the day they employed the whole gap closer that does damage on multiple charges across multiple jobs. That's boring and they could be a lot more imaginative; it certainly contributed to the sense of homogeneity across tanks in Shadowbringers especially.

I kinda agree.
Allthough I think having 2 charges is nice. I still think that having the mobility have no potency would be better so they're just used for the mobilities sake.

I feel that gap closers and backflips should be designed so that they are either 1. on the GCD and do less damage than the first ability of your combo, or 2. off of the GCD and deal no damage. It sucks when stuff like tank gap closers deal damage and are off GCD, because that means you're incentivized to use them ASAP to get in extra damage, rather than saving them for mobility when you really need it.

Icarus is a gap closer done right, imo. And it's on a healer, of all things.

It has no potency or any other beneficial effects, so you're free to use it when you *want* to, rather than feel compelled to use it on cooldown. You can use it to target friend or foe, so you can use it to get close to the enemy to Phlegma or stack up or avoid an AoE, or you can use it to zip to an ally if you don't think you'll reach a safe spot in time.

Compare that to, for example, RDM, who wants to use their mobility options as part of their rotation. The extra charges helps offset this issue, but backflips and gap closers can also serve to increase DPS by spending less time moving out of AoEs, yet due to the potency attached to them, here we are using them as damaging attacks. Ironically, that very fact is partially responsible for the dirt eating reputation of RDM and DRG. Hit that backflip / jump for teh damages... oops leapt straight into death!

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Originally Posted by MoofiaBossVal

I feel that gap closers and backflips should be designed so that they are either 1. on the GCD and do less damage than the first ability of your combo, or 2. off of the GCD and deal no damage. It sucks when stuff like tank gap closers deal damage and are off GCD, because that means you're incentivized to use them ASAP to get in extra damage, rather than saving them for mobility when you really need it.

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Any tank worth their salt will k ow when the gap closer is needed once they’ve learned the fight, and damage is fine on things like this.

I personally miss shoulder tackle, thunderclap is lame af. As most changes to MNK in the recent past.

If it’s going to target an enemy it should do damage, if it’s like nin/dnc skills it’s understandable it doesn’t.

Not all gap closers need to be the same, stop with the homogenization.

I'm very happy about SMN getting one in the form of personal racecar. If anything, I wish there were a way to hold it indefinitely until needed regardless of which primal attunement I have going.

Every one of them sucks except on red mage and even then I would shed no tears if the potency got rolled elsewhere.

I feel like we're at that point now with the game where gap closers having potency is a relic of a bygone era. I can distinctly remember when I had to save gauge to use gap closers on WAR during savage and it was fun in SB, but now it's been decoupled from the gauge entirely and we have 3 of them, why bother giving them any potency. Monk's change to thunderclap is a really good one and frankly, I think it's better to just remove potency from all gap closers save RDM. Giving charges to gap closers is nice but all it does is mean it's something extra you have to keep on cooldown and weave during burst windows. I'd rather we just have gap closers be there for when we need them, not for extra damage 90% of the time, it's just not needed anymore.

You can say it's making the game easier but with the way SE has been updating jobs, it's very clear they're trying to make jobs and rotations easier, which I'm not entirely against. Changing gap closers to zero potency seems like a no brainer and I think they're heading that way anyway, Thunderclap on Monk, En Avante on Dancer and teleports on Reaper.

No, I don't like them

It's better now they've added charges to them, but movement utility skills should be just that. Utility. Personally, I'd love to see damage removed from the gap closer skills on all jobs, and just have that damage added in elsewhere. More skills like Icarus and Aethereial Manipulation on casters, and skills like Thunderclap for melee jobs would be a win in my book, and it seems like in general they're slowly moving this way. (remembers bards always charging the boss to get the repelling strike damage)

I think Gap closers are way overused in this game. It makes sense for some Jobs to have them, like NIN for example, to show off a sense of nimbleness, but on Tanks? I think most Jobs only have a Gap closer to compensate for the lack of awareness People tend to have when a Enemy uses a Ring AoE.