***SPOILERS*** Question about the very last cutscene ***SPOILERS***

After exiting The Rising Stones for the very last time and chatting with the Scions, the WoL catches a glimpse of Meteion flying off, presumably to explore the world, similar to Alpha.

My question is, isn't Meteion a potentially world-ending threat with massive power? I know she's back to being more or less a sweet, innocent child (I guess?) with the death of the Endsinger, but she is still a being that is driven and manipulated by dynamis unless I missed something, which is entirely possible. I feel like the WoL should be keeping tabs on her, or at least have someone or some organization keep track of her.

Because in a way, Etheirys is just as bleak as the universe with various cultures and peoples clashing against each other and hating each other. The utopic world Meteion knew 12,000 years ago no longer exists. What's going to happen when she discovers how messed up and fractured the star has become?

In random bullet points:

We've convinced her to change over to blue hope birb, even when faced with bad vibes.

Her power level was mostly due to her numbers she had in her hivemind. We've basically killed off all but one at the end. In singular form shes probably a non-threat.

Its implied its her, but never outright stated. By the flow of conversation its possible she died some time shortly before /during we returned from Ultima Thule, and its just a random or metaphorical birb at the end.

After wiping out the rest of the universe and spending tens of thousands of years crusading against Etheirys, she is the biggest mass murderer in the history of ever. We shanked people for less. Yes, there is nothing stopping her from flying to the edge of the universe and stirring up the dynamis of the universe against Etheirys again, and she might not even have the tracking spell Venat placed upon her anymore so if she does that then the heroes would never be able to find her (unless they can science how dynamis works and figure out where the dynamis is being stirred up from).

She said that after the "Song of Hope" she would never raise her voice again, so I assume she either passed away or has simply made a vow of silence to never manipulate Dynamis again.

It's important to remember that the Meteion that we interacted with both in Elpis and after the Endsinger battle was a component of a hivemind that had her free will suppressed by the collective. Any time she was able to act under her own agency she would plead with the gestalt meteion to leave us alone, and begged us to protect the people she loved from her sisters.

Is she morally culpable for the actions of her sisters? I lean towards no. As for the bird in the ending cutscene, I think it's largely up to interpretation. Though I like to think in some way a hopeful, benevolent meteion is watching the people of Ethyris now.

Well first of all, we don't even know if that Starbird in the final cutscenes is literally meant to be Meteion, it could just be meant to be symbolic of her, like the Hume boy at the end of 5.0 ShadowBringers (the one who asks the WoLD how we got to be so strong) who resembles a young Ardbert (but we know is not him reincarnated); especially since it is strongly implied that Meteion died after the defeat of Endsinger, as indicated by her dialogue such as these:

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Originally Posted by Meteion

Greetings... You who are my final encounter...

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Thank you for guiding me here. To find these words at journey's end fills me with joy.

And so, before I fall forever silent, there is one thing I must do.

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But if you would allow it, I would sing one last song.

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That, combined with the ending illustration of Meteion reuniting with Hermes, I think all indicates we are meant to understand that Meteion has died by the end of Endwalker 6.0 MSQ, and that the Starbird we see is just symbolic of Meteion and not literally her.


But even then, let's hypothetically say that the Starbird is Meteion; the point of the WoL's final interaction with Meteion is that she's learned "to walk" (i.e. learning to cope with living, being able to overcome despair, etc.) thanks to the WoL, and is no longer a threat to all of life in the universe any longer.

But as I stated, I am pretty sure Meteion is dead, and that final cutscene Starbird isn't meant to literally be her.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

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Is she morally culpable for the actions of her sisters? I lean towards no.
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Now there's a controversial discussion waiting to happen. Did I miss the flaming threads discussing this, or did it just fly under the radar? Personally I would also lean no, but for different reasons (really, its all Hermes' fault).

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

Now there's a controversial discussion waiting to happen. Did I miss the flaming threads discussing this, or did it just fly under the radar? Personally I would also lean no, but for different reasons (really, its all Hermes' fault).

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hermes is the ultimate hypocritical villain this expansion. When he didn't get the answer he wanted he urged the hivemind to end it all.

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Originally Posted by sidurgu-12

hermes is the ultimate hypocritical villain this expansion. When he didn't get the answer he wanted he urged the hivemind to end it all.

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I might have to rewatch the cutscene, but I don't think he so much 'urged it' as 'agreed with it'. Which is still GROSSLY terrible, but 'inventing the concept of omnicide' is rather a worse crime than just thinking it sounds like a good idea.

I think Meteion is still alive. No poof no die. Seems subject to interpretation.

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Originally Posted by sidurgu-12

hermes is the ultimate hypocritical villain this expansion. When he didn't get the answer he wanted he urged the hivemind to end it all.

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Worse I think. He was depressed, and when faced with despair, decided that his civilization as a whole should also feel that way, and they don't deserve to live unless they pass his utterly unfair "test". If he actually just wanted the world to end I'd hate his train of thought much less...

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

Worse I think. He was depressed, and when faced with despair, decided that his civilization as a whole should also feel that way, and they don't deserve to live unless they pass his utterly unfair "test". If he actually just wanted the world to end I'd hate his train of thought much less...

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On the one hand, yes, Hermes was in pain and that caused him to enact atrocities. But on the other hand, why didn't the society of the ancients have therapists? Why did thier culture seem to push people towards being isolated in thier pain?

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

On the one hand, yes, Hermes was in pain and that caused him to enact atrocities. But on the other hand, why didn't the society of the ancients have therapists? Why did thier culture seem to push people towards being isolated in thier pain?

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Do you have a citation on the "seem to push people towards being isolated in their pain" part? From my point of view, Hermes had options. He chose the worst job for his disposition, and perpetuated the very things he was against. From what we understand about Ancient society, he could start his own activist group and argue for more controlled and extensive creation process, or even against living creations as a whole. We know he wouldn't be alone in his views.

Therapists help you identify your problems, and possibly help you come up with a way to combat them, but in the end its your fight. Maybe mental issues were rare enough that they didn't need them? Maybe they were something that people expected to overcome by themselves and in the majority of cases they did? Maybe society as a whole was so accepting that you could talk out your issues with basically anyone? I would speculate, but we're lacking information. Hell its possible therapists actually existed and Hermes just chose to self isolate with his problem.

This is a thing pretty common in most loose storytelling like DND..especially things like DND-

You purposefully leave things somewhat ambiguous, so that you can drop it forever and it feels satisfying….but there is just enough wiggle room that if you need it to come back, you can pull it in and make it look like you had planned to do so the entire time. Not a retcon by any means, just an ability to expand upon something if it’s needed.

For example the very famous One Ring of the Hobbit was originally envisioned as just a simple magic ring that granted invisibility. It wasn’t until the LoTR sequel that the rings significance was worked out.

Personally I like to believe that bird is Meteion herself because what, blue birds with twin tails are that common in Eorzea that they just casually flying around during the super important ending culmination of the expac? My own intrerpretation is that Meteion is observing the world her sisters wanted to destroy and learning to "walk" by flying around, relishing in joys this world can bring contrary to what her millenia long slumber dictated. I think she is completely aware how people think of her because of what her sisters did to this world so at least for now she conceal herself in that bird form and just enjoying the peace.

That's my own wild speculating of course but since we don't know for sure whether Meteion is alive or not, I am going for a more "happy ending" approach. Come with us, Meteion.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

On the one hand, yes, Hermes was in pain and that caused him to enact atrocities. But on the other hand, why didn't the society of the ancients have therapists? Why did thier culture seem to push people towards being isolated in thier pain?

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First of all: we don't know there weren't therapists, they might've just been off-screen. ...but yeah, I'm pretty sure they didn't. Remember how extremely conformist and unaware of alternate forms of thought those guys actually were; that is DEFINITELY a society that just hasn't really conceived of people who have no choice but to deviate from the norm.

I hope she's dead. I was uncomfortable with the 'Song of Hope' ending. No. No more singing, you have done enough. I don't care what sort of cutesy, innocent creature she reverted back into, she's still too dangerous to suffer to exist even without her sisters. Reminder that it only took one per planet to push them over the edge.

I do hope it's her. She suffered enough from her sisters now she is owed some happiness for once. And current day Etherys is perfect place for her. She is primed to explore and feel emotions. And multiple MSQ scenes showed that there are varieties OF emotions in Etherys nowadays.

How mechanically she is there, given its implied she died, is different matter. Perhaps this is just reference, perhaps reincarnation or the lifestream not really keeping creatures capable of unassisted space travel grounded. Would also explain why Midgarsormr was fooling around after death :P.

Now for more somber part of the post

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Do you have a citation on the "seem to push people towards being isolated in their pain" part? From my point of view, Hermes had options. He chose the worst job for his disposition, and perpetuated the very things he was against. From what we understand about Ancient society, he could start his own activist group and argue for more controlled and extensive creation process, or even against living creations as a whole. We know he wouldn't be alone in his views.

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Does him opening up about his anxieties and getting shot down by Hythlo, of all people, during offering to join Convocation conversation not show that Ancient society doesn't have a thing with dealing with emotions? Add in Elpis flowers, vain platitudes of Emet when explaining why it's fine to genocide the "failed' creatures no one having connection to Hermis when interrogating people with Venat not show the "Push of society towards the isolation"?
And don't go with "he had options". Mental issues disable options that is why external help is needed. And in this society no one even understood, or perhaps cared, what he was talking about.

I would also argue that Hermis was not in any way Villain of story nor in Elpis, nor in Fandaniel/Amon forms:

I always wondered why that fake memory he crafted for himself was enough to dissuade him from trying again. He was desperate when he created Metea, and the fake memory was that she just poofed out randomly. How would that be enough for desperate person not to try again? I postulate that something changed in Hermis there that is unaffected by memory alteration. That after hearing Metea report he was overcome with despair and lost part of his soul, becoming functionally Blasphemy. And all his reflections shared that corrupted, voided out soul. Thus Amon wasn't fallen Hermis. He was what he was because Hermis was the one that fell.
This in essence makes Hermis first victim of Final Days, rather than villain.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I hope she's dead. I was uncomfortable with the 'Song of Hope' ending. No. No more singing, you have done enough. I don't care what sort of cutesy, innocent creature she reverted back into, she's still too dangerous to suffer to exist even without her sisters. Reminder that it only took one per planet to push them over the edge.

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It wasn't just her and her sisters. The Endsinger was also the accumulated souls of a thousand thousand dead worlds. Billions if not trillions of nihilistic tortured souls calling out for oblivion. Hermes didn't just give her the ability to talk to the living, but also to apparently absorb souls - "Welcomed their shadowed hearts into our own." The souls she happen to meet happen to be the worst souls to take in and talk too.
https://i.imgur.com/rqsoIvq.png
All those souls are gone now, either let loose into the universe to serve as part of a 'larger flow' as mentioned in the MSQ following the Ea part of Ultima Thule, or used to empower hope in Thule.
https://i.imgur.com/xCIE8C6.png
There's no practical way for her now to get that powerful again unless she visits more dead worlds and absorbs their demented souls.

I am not really sure if she is still alive or not. She did say that she will sing one last song before she will fall forever silent. But it could easily have been that with the song of hope in action that she was bascially getting a second chance or that only her "bad" side died and she was "reborn" again in her blue version.

I would be fine with her being still alive and being able to observe the world, maybe even being reunited with a reborn Hermes. I did not see her as the true villian or even final boss. She just was the body that the despair of the whole universe used to manifest the Endsinger. That poor girl was basically just a little newborn, given the horrible ability to feel what others feel, without any way to stop that. And on top of that had a hivemind. For me it was fully Hermes fault. In his deep need to get better answers from outside their planet he created beings that bascially could not stand to be in the same room when he gets angry or sad That should have been warning enough that the Universe was not a good place to send them to. But he was probably so naive to believe that everyone out there must have been better. And to make it even worse he gives them a very flawed question.

Poor Meteion never stood a chance.

Yet even after over 12.000 years there was still good in here. There was still one blue bird inside the hive mind. And I guess if she survives that and is finally able to see the world how it is. With sadness but also with happiness, I would be quite fine with that. If she died there than at least if she had a soul she will get the chance to be reborn again, so that would also be a fitting ending.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I hope she's dead. I was uncomfortable with the 'Song of Hope' ending. No. No more singing, you have done enough. I don't care what sort of cutesy, innocent creature she reverted back into, she's still too dangerous to suffer to exist even without her sisters. Reminder that it only took one per planet to push them over the edge.

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Hermes send out a huge numbers of Meteions. (We see them when they form into the Endsinger) Every single one of them found at least one horrible planet. Every single one of these experiences got delievered to the hivemind which is what Meteion is forced to report in Elpis. And as LystAP said it was not only them. They were after all seemingly able to communicate with the souls of the death. It was that combination AND the question that Hermes gave them that bascially transformed her in Elpis at the end.

I guess I never saw Meteion as dead because after the fight with Zenos, when we wake up back on the ship, the Scions tell us that they freaked out when Meteion came back alone and said, "She/he was right behind me."

So to me that was a pretty clear indicator that she was still alive. But I may have to go back and re-watch it.

I'm in agreement with "only the Etheirys one survived." She's been trapped in there all this time, because she got a taste of our friendship 12,000 years ago. The hive mind bent on destructions never experienced that.

They are the ones that formed the Endsinger (we saw the lone blue bird outside begging them to stop) but in the process I think they finally freed her, or rejected her. That lone blue bird, the innocent one we met so long ago, is the only survivor.

I think she too wants to go and explore the world, and make new friends. But she's hopefully finally learned to avoid ramming her consciousness into people having a bad day.

Could see it two ways: one she did indeed die and she is finally at peace now. Her dialogue was vague enough that she could have passed on or she could have just accepted her end of being this all powerful being. And now she’s free to explore on her own. I could see it either way and can accept both.

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Originally Posted by Lium

I guess I never saw Meteion as dead because after the fight with Zenos, when we wake up back on the ship, the Scions tell us that they freaked out when Meteion came back alone and said, "She/he was right behind me."

So to me that was a pretty clear indicator that she was still alive. But I may have to go back and re-watch it.

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Yeah she was still at that specific point in time, but her dialogue and the end card illustration implies (at least to me) that she would be dead relatively soon.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

I'm in agreement with "only the Etheirys one survived." She's been trapped in there all this time, because she got a taste of our friendship 12,000 years ago. The hive mind bent on destructions never experienced that.

They are the ones that formed the Endsinger (we saw the lone blue bird outside begging them to stop) but in the process I think they finally freed her, or rejected her. That lone blue bird, the innocent one we met so long ago, is the only survivor.

I think she too wants to go and explore the world, and make new friends. But she's hopefully finally learned to avoid ramming her consciousness into people having a bad day.

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I don’t think the one we speak to after defeating the Endsinger is supposed to be the one that was pleading with the Endsinger, especially since the latter one was already blue again, while the one we talked to was still grey before turning back into her blue form.

I think the one we speak to after defeating the Endsinger is supposed to be what’s left of the Endsinger after her defeat, so the Meteion we talk to at the end is essentially all of the Meteia together as a last remaining remnant, it’s wasn’t any specific preexisting one.

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Originally Posted by Theozilla

I think the one we speak to after defeating the Endsinger is supposed to be what’s left of the Endsinger after her defeat, so the Meteion we talk to at the end is essentially all of the Meteia together as a last remaining remnant, it’s wasn’t any specific preexisting one.

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In that case then perhaps she dissipated and it's the other independent Meteion who remains?

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Originally Posted by Iscah

In that case then perhaps she dissipated and it's the other independent Meteion who remains?

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Maybe, but I more think that Meteion also got folded in/melded in with the rest of the Meteia by the end, especially since I am of the view I think Meteion/all the Meteia are dead by the end and the Starbird we see is largely symbolic and not literally Meteion.