More downgrades...(Pandaemonium Savage spoilers)

So just found out that the p2 of P4s doesnt even have a new theme... its the same theme. We're only getting 2 new songs in this raid tier as opposed to Eden's what, 3-4? Along with no voice acting. How many more downgrades at this rate jesus...

I'm thankful that Soken survived cancer, myself.

Yeah I was gonna say.... I understand it's disappointing maybe, but Soken had cancer :(

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Originally Posted by Exosapien

I'm thankful that Soken survived cancer, myself.

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I never said i wasn’t. They don’t have any other music people? That’s irresponsibility on them in that case and especially unfair that all of that is put on one man.Also what does he have to do with voice acting?

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I never said i wasn’t. They don’t have any other music people? That’s irresponsibility on them in that case and especially unfair that all of that is put on one man.

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This forum can't differentiate between company and people. The company is responsible for the game and people are responsible for their individual jobs. They use it as a defence for any problems. Decent people work for companies that make bad decisions. Or good depending on where you think the buck stops I guess.

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Originally Posted by Exosapien

I'm thankful that Soken survived cancer, myself.

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It's more than a little emotionally manipulative to try pull out this card. Poor form, IMO. This is a multinational company and is thus more than capable of hiring other composers to help share the burden, particularly when the game is now at a point where it is poised to make an impression on its newer customers.

Please understand and look forward to it.

I think Soken's health is a reason for him to take on a lesser workload, I doubt that many would contest that.

On the other hand, why couldn't they allow or hire someone else to make up for the work that Soken was not able to do? Someone like Nobuo Uematsu is more than qualified to make up a few tracks for this game. SE has other composers they could have used to make up the difference.

Quite frankly, I doubt they felt the need to. While a few people may get upset, and even fewer would post here, those that do post here, will get drown out by the white knights shrilling for the company above all else.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I never said i wasn’t. They don’t have any other music people? That’s irresponsibility on them in that case and especially unfair that all of that is put on one man.Also what does he have to do with voice acting?

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I mean he's the one producing the bops for us, and most of the best ones are his.

But then I also don't think we need new music for every single phase of a boss fight, it works great for some but it is absolutely not necessary for all of them and in no way reduces the quality of the game in any shape or form. More does not mean better.

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Originally Posted by Exosapien

I mean he's the one producing the bops for us, and most of the best ones are his.

But then I also don't think we need new music for every single phase of a boss fight, it works great for some but it is absolutely not necessary for all of them and in no way reduces the quality of the game in any shape or form. More does not mean better.

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It kind of does mean better when we’ve already been losing out on content lately between the constant gear reusing and downgrade of things but okay. Again, why don’t they have other people to do it? Why is all music on one person? That’s bad company form. As of this tier we have 3 fights that are the same song and the last fight is a remix of the first 3 songs….

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Originally Posted by Exosapien

I'm thankful that Soken survived cancer, myself.

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Geez, what's up with this emotional manipulation? lol

While I sympathize for Soken’s circumstances - he isn’t the only individual present who can craft beautiful pieces of music.

Also I think it’s completely unfair to even suggest the OP is being apathetic toward someone’s plight because of their willingness to criticize . While it wasn’t outright said, you’re belittling their character by making it seem that way and it kind of sucks.

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Originally Posted by Melorie

Geez, what's up with this emotional manipulation? lol

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I dunno, I'm probably being a bit too waspy but honestly OP is just whining for whining's sake and there's some perspective they should really be considering before throwing an absolute fit they didn't get a remix that they themselves aren't even currently at content for.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It kind of does mean better when we’ve already been losing out on content lately between the constant gear reusing and downgrade of things but okay. Again, why don’t they have other people to do it? Why is all music on one person? That’s bad company form. As of this tier we have 3 fights that are the same song and the last fight is a remix of the first 3 songs….

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I literally don't see why having a remix is that important. This game goes above and beyond for music without remixing songs on top of it. More does not mean better.

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Originally Posted by Exosapien

More does not mean better.

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Neither does less, and we seem to be getting less and less lately.

S-E has a formula they've stuck to very rigidly, rarely if ever going above that formula but often going below. Savage is one of the few things to actually DO regularly in this game and many people will be listening to this music and seeing this fight over and over. Why not get somebody to step in and do the second phase music if Soken wasn't able to? S-E has a number of good composers to choose from.

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Originally Posted by Exosapien

I literally don't see why having a remix is that important. This game goes above and beyond for music without remixing songs on top of it. More does not mean better.

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Just because something is a non-issue for a particular individual it does not mean that it is not a valid concern for somebody else.

People play this game for all sorts of different reasons. Usually more than one. As it happens, the music is a pretty major draw for many.

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Originally Posted by Exosapien

I dunno, I'm probably being a bit too waspy but honestly OP is just whining for whining's sake and there's some perspective they should really be considering before throwing an absolute fit they didn't get a remix that they themselves aren't even currently at content for.

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Just because you think someone is caring about something that isn't important in your eyes (the fact that we've been less and less polishing and certain types of content) doesn't really give you the right to imply that he doesn't care that someone on the team had cancer. That's childish. If you can't handle people talking about downgrading stuff, maybe stop accessing the forums. This is simply discussion, not a "fit".

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Originally Posted by Exosapien

I literally don't see why having a remix is that important. This game goes above and beyond for music without remixing songs on top of it. More does not mean better.

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I literally don't see why having more gear is that important. This game goes above and beyond for gear without releasing more on top of it. More does not mean better.

I literally don't see why having more hair options is that important. This game goes above and beyond for hair without releasing more on top of it. More does not mean better.

I literally don't see why having more grand company ranks is that important. This game goes above and beyond for grand company ranks without releasing more on top of it. More does not mean better.

It's also funny to me how one of the biggest advocates for diversity on this forum only chooses to get behind the idea when it's convenient for them.

I’m pretty sure they went out of their way to underscore how the raid series in 5.x had higher resources put into it vs what we had seen before. Likely participation wasn’t high enough for us to do that again on that scale.

That and a majority of the soundtrack we heard in 5.x were remixes of existing themes (though some could be considered a remix only inspired by the original, I’d wager a solid half of the soundtrack overall was taken directly from ff8).

I did appreciate how the questing was short and sweet this time, though. I’m not overly fond of long, drawn-out scenarios before we get to the fun part (the fight, for raids) and I’ll never pass up the opportunity to see ffxiv do creepy.

Is that you, MPK?

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Originally Posted by van_arn

I’m pretty sure they went out of their way to underscore how the raid series in 5.x had higher resources put into it vs what we had seen before. Likely participation wasn’t high enough for us to do that again on that scale.

That and a majority of the soundtrack we heard in 5.x were remixes of existing themes (though some could be considered a remix only inspired by the original, I’d wager a solid half of the soundtrack overall was taken directly from ff8).

I did appreciate how the questing was short and sweet this time, though. I’m not overly fond of long, drawn-out scenarios before we get to the fun part (the fight, for raids) and I’ll never pass up the opportunity to see ffxiv do creepy.

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Eden only had 4 ff8 battle themes. Every other floor had “unique” themes/remixes of primal themes. Whereas this tier is 2 songs. One being original, the other being a remix of the original song.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Is that you, MPK?

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Ah yes, being equated to a troll for voicing concerns some people dont agree with. The usual on these forums.

We love to Fight and Argue lol
At least its entertaining sometimes

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

So just found out that the p2 of P4s doesnt even have a new theme... its the same theme. We're only getting 2 new songs in this raid tier as opposed to Eden's what, 3-4? Along with no voice acting. How many more downgrades at this rate jesus...

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I mean e4s don't have 2nd theme as well, only e12s has 2nd theme...

The p4 music is a :catjam: anyways

Imagine how disheartening it must be to be a writer that isn't Ishikawa, or a composer working for SE that isn't Soken, or a localizer that isn't Koji. There are entire teams dedicated to these features, but this community has a bizarre habit of thinking the game is made by like 5 people..

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Originally Posted by Knot_D

I mean e4s don't have 2nd theme as well, only e12s has 2nd theme...

The p4 music is a :catjam: anyways

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Titan p2 had the primals titan theme. We also had levi as a 3rd theme as well. We had force your way, leviathan theme, Titan p1 theme, Titan p2 theme, and i think even Titan p3 theme? But even if we only count Force your way,Levi,And Titan p1 that’s still 3 themes vs the 2 we’re getting this time.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Eden only had 4 ff8 battle themes. Every other floor had “unique” themes/remixes of primal themes. Whereas this tier is 2 songs. One being original, the other being a remix of the original song.


Ah yes, being equated to a troll for voicing concerns some people dont agree with. The usual on these forums.

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I just brought it up because of lot of the concerns you've brought up are the types of things he always brings up. Like lack of content. Though someone upset about not having enough music is a first.

I actually feel blessed that there we get the things we get in the game. The variety of activities and such. You look at other MMOs and realize they haven't had new content in a year and the music in their game sucks in comparison.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

I just brought it up because of lot of the concerns you've brought up are the types of things he always brings up. Like lack of content. Though someone upset about not having enough music is a first.

I actually feel blessed that there we get the things we get in the game. The variety of activities and such. You look at other MMOs and realize they haven't had new content in a year and the music in their game sucks in comparison.

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Hmm only other mmo’s i’m somewhat knowledgeable on are WoW and Eso and they get updates pretty often iirc. It’s not so much “enough music” as it is that tacked onto all the other downgrades of content, but considering this expansion is succeeding the one that broke record sales i’d expected either the same or upgrades as last expansion, but yet again it seems to be downgrades. Especially for something like Savage where it’s somewhat difficult, people like to be rewarded for their time and hearing new music is a plus since they have to run it over and over again.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

So just found out that the p2 of P4s doesnt even have a new theme... its the same theme. We're only getting 2 new songs in this raid tier as opposed to Eden's what, 3-4? Along with no voice acting. How many more downgrades at this rate jesus...

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Careful OP, you might rouse the ire of the forum with this statement. They'll say we shouldn't demand more since we're raiders, and this game isn't made for us, and if we want upgrades to go back to WoW(even if we didn't come from there). Then when the amount of Savage fights is cut down to 3 per tier and Ultimates get cut permanently, they'll say that the multibillion dollar company just doesn't have the money and manpower to spend on raids, and that this game was never made for raids, so if you don't like it quit. Meanwhile they constantly ask for new glamour/casual content.

TL;DR: Silly raider, you're not allowed to ask for stuff. Now let me ask SE about adding in another NPC hairstyle for my character...

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Originally Posted by Exosapien

I'm thankful that Soken survived cancer, myself.

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While it is joy to see that Soken survived cancer, he is however not the only composer working on the game.

Tbh my 1rst reaction to the lack of New music for Savage was dissapointement, same for the lack of voice acting. Why would anyone be happy about that or just say "continue like this SE! We don't need thoose things aniway" ?

It's like it's okay for SE to throw out mounts and glams at 30$ but not ok for players to ask for more content ? XD

The voice should have been there tbh. The music though-I think one of their glaring issues is that they've been working with their same little team this entire time. Of course thats very heartwarming and pretty much guarantees them success since they're a proven golden group. BUT. The problem is the game is so big now that they can't really keep up with everyones expectations anymore, just being that main group. They have to expand and hire new people to keep up with all demands. On one hand it sounds easy, but on the other I know the feeling about it is most likely something along the lines of, "ah @#$ now we're gonna have to deal with newbies who might get a big head and change the work atmosphere" which-that's a very valid concern too. New people on board does change things. Personally, I dont know if that risk would be worth it. It could go either way. It could be a success and easy transition or it could be a nightmare where everyone hates the new releases because its by someone else and you can tell + the new employees are barking about what they think they deserve and posting twitlongers because yoshi didnt smile one day he walked in lol. Complicated issue, but I wish them the best.

I'm not stupid, everyone knows companies don't give a toss about any of us. But them not caring about us doesnt mean we suddenly have to act cruel to the one we know is behind the music. I dont care, I dont care. You can be bitter if you want, you can cry about it all day long. Slide down the walls of your room if youd like. I'm content just knowing Soken survived. I'd much much rather that than 2 songs and he didnt make it. Slide down your wall with Simple Plan's 'how could this happen to me' playing. There's a song for you, how about that.

Some context on what was been classed a "downgrade" here:

• usually none of the normal raids have voice acting. This is consistent across expansions. Eden had some outlier fights in that regard, but didn't set a new consistent standard.
• whether or not a bonus phase gets a new song is inconsistent at best. e4s (using an old Primals arrangement for 3rd phase that is also used in The Weapon's Refrain) and e8s had no new music, while e12s did. If someone wants to argue "downgrade", it happened during Eden compared to Omega, as the latter had extra music more consistently due to its use of door-bosses every tier. However, Omega was an "upgrade" over Alexander in that regard.

I am not saying whether those things being "standard" for the raid is good or bad. I don't think anyone would ever argue wouldn't like if we got more instead of less things, but it's important to actually compare datapoints fairly rather complain about broken standards that never existed.

Phase 2 doesn't always get different music, new music doesn't seem to have quite as consistent (some might say rigid) a pattern as many other things in XIV do.

Maybe Soken had a bit of writers block? Spent too long coming up with new bangers for P8S & P12S and didn't have any any time left over to slap something together for P4S?

It just seems overly picky to me to tally up exactly how many new bits of music we got. Would you also go through the MSQ and work out how many new tracks there are in each expansion? How many minutes of music in total?

From memory, Eden has more tracks but a lot of them are remixes of existing music. I assume a lot of Omega is the same but I'm not so familiar with the tunes to recognise them.

The current variety is on par with Alexander's first tier and we haven't seen the rest of the raids yet to compare.

For me personally, it isn't just the music in the raids that have been getting downgraded. Almost every song in this game is remixed/using the same composition from one of the two expansion theme songs, or one of the new zone themes. Either that or straight up copy/pasting a song from a previous expansion.

I dunno I think the soundtracks for this game (as catchy as they are) are getting lazier and lazier. I This isn't a new thing I've been thinking either, I got this impression all the way back in Stormblood when the music in the first dungeon is literally just Limsa but in a minor key. That's the laziest example I can think of and it's the one that got me to really pay attention to just how small the amount of original compositions are in this game.

Im just gonna say it. The music in Endwalker is a downgrade. Soken was very ill and thats awful. Im so glad he is doing better. They should have gotten other composers then.

Considering phase 2 doesn't really 'leave' Dracula's castle doesn't immediately warrant it. On the other hand we knew they cut corners this expansion to get things out the door before 2022, so could chalk it up to that as well.

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Originally Posted by KuroMaboroshi

Some context on what was been classed a "downgrade" here:

• usually none of the normal raids have voice acting. This is consistent across expansions. Eden had some outlier fights in that regard, but didn't set a new consistent standard.
• whether or not a bonus phase gets a new song is inconsistent at best. e4s (using an old Primals arrangement for 3rd phase that is also used in The Weapon's Refrain) and e8s had no new music, while e12s did. If someone wants to argue "downgrade", it happened during Eden compared to Omega, as the latter had extra music more consistently due to its use of door-bosses every tier. However, Omega was an "upgrade" over Alexander in that regard.

I am not saying whether those things being "standard" for the raid is good or bad. I don't think anyone would ever argue wouldn't like if we got more instead of less things, but it's important to actually compare datapoints fairly rather complain about broken standards that never existed.

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I’m comparing it because you would think the expansion succeeding the expansion that broke record sales would add some upgrades in some places. I’m directly comparing first tier of this to the first tier of the other expansions. Eden had 5 songs, 3 if you don’t want to count the remixes in p4. Omega had 3. This tier has 2, with the second song just being a remix of the first song.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

It just seems overly picky to me to tally up exactly how many new bits of music we got. Would you also go through the MSQ and work out how many new tracks there are in each expansion? How many minutes of music in total?

From memory, Eden has more tracks but a lot of them are remixes of existing music. I assume a lot of Omega is the same but I'm not so familiar with the tunes to recognise them.

The current variety is on par with Alexander's first tier and we haven't seen the rest of the raids yet to compare.

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Its the fact that on top of things like this we're already missing out on a lot more things despite this expansion having a 6-7 month delay. I really dont see how its nitpicky to expect at least some effort be put in for the savage version of a fight seeing as its pretty high end in difficulty. It seems like theres no winning with criticism though. Go too in depth and its why are you even playing the game. Call out one thing and its "nitpicky." Personally im not okay with getting less when the company is making the most it ever has been but good for you if thats the case.

The fact it took only 3 minutes for someone to try and shame you because of your disappointment in the music is actually kind of wild lmao.

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Originally Posted by xxmiamorecadenza

While I sympathize for Soken’s circumstances - he isn’t the only individual present who can craft beautiful pieces of music.

Also I think it’s completely unfair to even suggest the OP is being apathetic toward someone’s plight because of their willingness to criticize . While it wasn’t outright said, you’re belittling their character by making it seem that way and it kind of sucks.

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welcome to how this "great" community operates btw. its all passive aggressive and emotional manipulation. most commonly found in male viera, catboys and male au'ra who turn out to be the biggest predators in this game ALWAYS.

anyways to the topic, yeah it sucks SE lets everything fall to Soken but what can we do? yoshi and him are pretty tight so if he wants to retain control i don't foresee yoshi-p changing that. sorry for bad formatting in pvp