Dynamis in hindsight (Massive 6.0 spoilers)

So as we know Dynamis is a very hit or miss thing to the lore community due to it being the power of emotions and determination, but I wanted to see what everybody could find in lore that actually makes sense in hindsight with the reveal of Dynamis.

Example, I always thought the Vanu Vanu "dance-off" was ridiculous for the longest on intimidation. With the introduction of Dynamis though, it now makes sense. They're not being frightened by the dance, they're sensing and being scared by the amount of Dynamis the dancer is giving off.

I reject the idea of retroactively attributing things that were already easily explained as aetherial phenomena as Dynamis just because it's the new hot topic and lacks any rules or clear display of what it even is or does.

It's fine to do that. My thought is that if they're going to be putting this into canon, might as well see what all fits it.

I'm curious how much dynamis lore was rooted in, "They're going to riot if we retcon what aether is/isn't again."

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I'm curious how much dynamis lore was rooted in, "They're going to riot if we retcon what aether is/isn't again."

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Let's be honest, there was going to be a riot if there was any retcons at all. Dynamis feels like their "let's throw a bit of uncertainty as to what is or is not aether" in an attempt to give wiggle room for not only certain past lore inconsistencies, but to also give something new to write about in the future.

I personally thought the introduction of dynamis was quite clever, what with it essentially also being FFXIV’s equivalent of Dark Energy, as evidenced by it also being 68.3% of the universe and being responsible for the acceleration of the expansion of the universe.

It also reminded me of Philip Pullman’s His Dark Material’s trilogy (which are some of my favorite sci-fi/fantasy books) and how Dust functioned as a concept in the story (though in HDM Dust was called Dark Matter, which in real life works with gravity rather than against it, which is what Dark Energy does).

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I'm curious how much dynamis lore was rooted in, "They're going to riot if we retcon what aether is/isn't again."

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It remains to be seen how it is handled, I suppose.

Personally? I'm rather wary. I know a lot of people who spent a lot of time working out how things fit together and why only to have to adjust everything not because they were necessarily wrong for making the connections that they did...but simply because some completely new thing came into play that made certain things much more contrived than they necessarily needed to be.

It's one thing to have things planned out on a long term basis, but another to just alter things to do whatever each time a new expansion or content patch comes around. Maybe I'd be less wary if I had not witnessed WoW go in a similar direction with major characters coming back from the dead, time travel, alternate universes and so on.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

So as we know Dynamis is a very hit or miss thing to the lore community due to it being the power of emotions and determination, but I wanted to see what everybody could find in lore that actually makes sense in hindsight with the reveal of Dynamis.

Example, I always thought the Vanu Vanu "dance-off" was ridiculous for the longest on intimidation. With the introduction of Dynamis though, it now makes sense. They're not being frightened by the dance, they're sensing and being scared by the amount of Dynamis the dancer is giving off.

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The actual examples are in the Omega and Dancer quest lines. Dancer especially is basically a stealth EW add. Right down to to fighting a Blasphemy

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Originally Posted by Slatersev

The actual examples are in the Omega and Dancer quest lines. Dancer especially is basically a stealth EW add. Right down to to fighting a Blasphemy

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There's also the possibility (I say this because I cannot remember for certain what caused this) of one at the end of the Crystal Tower raids with Nero. He's being corrupted, trying to make his way to the exit, and only after does he state with determination that he will not fall there, the corruption dissipates.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I'm curious how much dynamis lore was rooted in, "They're going to riot if we retcon what aether is/isn't again."

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When was aether exactly retconned before in the first place? Sure, there's been additional information added about the subject (like Primals being Tulpas and Astral Darkness and Umbral Light and such), but I can't exactly recall when its nature itself was retconned?

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Originally Posted by Veloran

I reject the idea of retroactively attributing things that were already easily explained as aetherial phenomena as Dynamis just because it's the new hot topic and lacks any rules or clear display of what it even is or does.

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What about phenomena that is not easily explained by aether?

If the voidsent are aether-starved, then surely the very concept of void magic is a contradiction in terms? How do you extract energy from enslaved voidsent and use it to power a ship if they're running a deficit of 'energy' in the first place?

As someone who only took beginners level physics but adore when fantasy magic systems align with physics in fun ways (Am I still tickled pink to this day that Tolkien having all of Ea created via Song and if String Theory is right then everything is vibrations?), I feel that having not everything be the product of aether makes the universe a hundred-fold more realistic and stronger, and that dynamic is deliberately paralleling Dark Energy is delightful. There were always elements of the lore that felt awkward assigning to aether and had to be handwaved as story trope willpower or emotion, so having those be something defined in-universe makes them less 'hand-wavey as plot demands'. Because dynamis isn't [yet] understood or studied in depth, there's still some ambiguity in the world mechanics which is necessary to have not only a plot but a world that feels real - if there was a Great Unifying Theory of how everything works with no great contradictions that the scholars haven't figured out, that's immediately immersion breaking.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

What about phenomena that is not easily explained by aether?

If the voidsent are aether-starved, then surely the very concept of void magic is a contradiction in terms? How do you extract energy from enslaved voidsent and use it to power a ship if they're running a deficit of 'energy' in the first place?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThahHzMScl4
Jesse Cox I think broke down that aspect well in his video on Astral vs Umbral

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And this changes how we see Voidsent creatures too. They aren't the absence of aether, but instead ACTIVELY draining it from the world - creating a void of aether, similar to the 13th. While the Sineaters of the First - the voidsents' light sided counterparts - are surrounded by an over abundance of aether, the gorge on it, are filled to the brim with it, and aren't using any of it.

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The Voidsent aren't like the Terminus Beasts, who literally are the absence of Aether (as Y'shtola could not see them) and replaced with Dynamis, the Voidsent are constantly consuming/draining aether and burning it off, and never letting it stabilize/"cool off". It's like Voidsent are always in the Astral Fire phase (from Black Mages), while Sin Eaters are only ever in the Umbral Ice phase.

Hm. I don't think that Darkness and the Void are necessarily the same thing, even if an imbalance of one created the other. If the EE is to believed, ambient Aether doesn't exist on the thirteenth anymore due to a disruption in the balance between Light and Dark. The 'Void' is literally the absence of Aether. The voidsent are described as 'aether-starved'. And I suppose that none of this comes as a particular surprise when you consider who FFXI's Dynamis is linked to.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Hm. I don't think that Darkness and the Void are necessarily the same thing, even if an imbalance of one created the other. If the EE is to believed, ambient Aether doesn't exist on the thirteenth anymore due to a disruption in the balance between Light and Dark. The 'Void' is literally the absence of Aether. The voidsent are described as 'aether-starved'. And I suppose that none of this comes as a particular surprise when you consider who FFXI's Dynamis is linked to.

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The First was also said to be at risk of becoming a Void (of Light) as well (before Minfilia halted the Flood). If someone like Y'shtola can see Sin Eaters and Voidsent, that consequently has to mean they are still made of Aether (but likely in a manner that is effectively unusable). So that likely means the "ambient" term is the key qualifying factor about the Aether in the 13th. Ambient aether is indicated to be a useable form of aether, like Vrtra said Midgardsormr fed off of the ambient aether in space during his journey to Etheirys. So like with the Empty making everything into an unusable Umbral wasteland/void, the 13th is probably in a state where everything is in an extreme Astral state and unable to stabilize and/or take form (aside from the Voidsent). The Voidsent aren't like the Terminus Beasts, they're the opposite of the Sin Eaters.

Also the term "Void" is partially just the name of the location of the 13th and part of the title of Voidsent, it's not literal nothingness in this context.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

What about phenomena that is not easily explained by aether?

If the voidsent are aether-starved, then surely the very concept of void magic is a contradiction in terms? How do you extract energy from enslaved voidsent and use it to power a ship if they're running a deficit of 'energy' in the first place?

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Due to the nature of sundered shards, and the 13th possibly being the last split, it's possible the aetherial density is naturally so thin there that modern Eorzean aetheromiters cannot even detect it.

I think the closest thing for me was the dancer job quest story haha. You learn that the dance troupe that gives you your job crystal tours the land to dispel negative emotions from their audience, because historically, these emotions have been known to birth physical manifestations that cause real-world harm. When I was doing MSQ I was like "Damn... The dancer job quest had it right all along huh" hahaha.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Due to the nature of sundered shards, and the 13th possibly being the last split, it's possible the aetherial density is naturally so thin there that modern Eorzean aetheromiters cannot even detect it.

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I think a failure of the measurement device is a plausible explanation of it - e.g. that darkness has put the aether in such a high "kinetic" state that it defies measurement by regular aetherometers. Darkness and light are not too well understood as phenomena, and up to now the association of which is astral and which is umbral was the wrong way round. Given that voidsent can act as aether batteries to Reapers and Void Magi, it makes all the more sense.

I instantly remembered the DNC quests when dynamis came to the table.

I went back to revisit the quest text and indeed they say that is an aetherical manifestation... however, dynamis is not common knowledge. Even its akasa denomination is something quite esoteric even in Thavnairian alchemy and the Dancers from the Falsiam Troupe are Thavnairian. I could see they just not being knowledgeable enough about akasa and simply perceiving the Totentanz as aetherical in nature.

The DNC questline isn't way far back in time, just one xpac prior to EW. It's very possible that the idea of dynamis could have been in the works for that long, but they just didn't want to namedrop or complexify that idea so early.

Though, given the fact that we see NPCs from all sorts of job quests interacting with the MSQ, I really hoped that we had a cameo from Nashmeria to re-contextualize the Totentanz. I wonder if they forgot about how the DNC storyline could potentially enrich the MSQ.

The Totentanz = Dynamis idea doesn't make sense because Dynamis is still supposed to be all but imperceptible even for Sundered lifeforms. Nidhana describes it as an "unseen energy" theorized by Thavnairian alchemists. It's only when Meteion is dumping universal levels of the stuff on to Etheirys or utilizing similar amounts at the edge of the universe that actual tangible manifestations occur. This, in conjunction with the fact that the planet's aether shield was still intact and both seasoned Dancers and the game itself describe it as an aetherial manifestation, would preclude it from being Dynamis.

Frankly the fact that the Dancer quests were all written with an emotional aetheric phenomenon center stage does nothing but once more raise the question of why even write Dynamis into the story when everything it does could already be easily explained by an existing force.

I think it's made hard to distinguish intentionally, but it's also easy to understand that it's hard to distinguish because both Aether and Dynamis are forms of energy. Fuel for techniques. Meteion is even said to manipulate it in the same way the Ancients manipulate aether.

Its main purpose in Endwalker's narrative was power escalation. Meteion has a lot of fuel, and perfect knowledge on how to command it.

It's a boring answer, I know, but that's the way I see it.

But to participate in the thread itself, what could I see as a possible, inadvertent command of Dynamis? Well, I loved that idea about the Vanu-Vanu dances.

Perhaps the Manderville hijinks. The family seems to believe that they are strong, and so they influence the Dynamis into making themselves that way without being able to perceive it?

Aether Sickness? Perhaps our Sundered selves being partially Dynamis is variable person to person, resulting in the variable intensity of the affliction?

Dynamis was way before DNC quests in Limit Break form though, so your points do not stand. Is it a retcon? Probably but here it is.

About the original question: most Loreheads are iffy about it. It's introduced for sole purpose of giving in universe validity of Literary dramatic rules. Power of Love, Hope, Friendship or Despair. And is mostly writers tool AGAINST this very forum. Its the ruler to hit them over the head when they are misbehaving:

"This cannot work like this!", "Plot Hole!", "This event cannot take place!". Writers answer: TWANG... "Dynamis!"

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Originally Posted by Pofruin

Dynamis was way before DNC quests in Limit Break form though, so your points do not stand.

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Which was previously just attributed to aether and the Echo. I mean the Echo can quite literally "break down the barriers of reality", and it's the buff you get in nearly all instanced content from solo duties to raids. It can even stack and grow in power based on how "dire" a situation is. It is a very nice tie between the lore and the mechanics of the game. Meanwhile, as you point out, Dynamis is nothing more than a writer's get-out-of-jail-free card. "The writing is incoherent or contrived? No it isn't, DYNAMIS!" is simply weak writing.

And frankly, I think they were forced to invent Dynamis because they had written themselves into a corner in the plot. The Ancients naturally needed to lose in the Final Days and we needed to win, so to justify that they took something of a lazy route and just invented a new universal force that does not abide by any rules or logic, and which the Ancients were (in)conveniently biologically unable to interact with. Narratively this is pretty much taking the easy way out.

It is painfully obvious Dynamis is crowbarred into story in EW. It is also obvious to me that central conflict Venat Vs. Ancients is well established and defined from at least ARR. Why they did it is anyone's guess. Your assertion that they wrote themselves into a corner is as valid as mine idea that General MMO audience can't get anything Subtle. And anything less then sledgehammering the point with Dynamis that "Feelings are important" would not carry the message that was intended.
But its here now and we go from here. It can still be swept under the rug with: unseen, esoteric and rare epitets. Or loads of old stuff can be retconned or developed further with Dynamis.

For retcon example: Blasphemies are Aetheric beings transformed by Despair "aspected" Dynamis. Then perhaps different "aspects" can make different biengs/have different effects? Hope Dynamis is defining factor of Hero for example. And entirety of Fairy on the First are different types of Dynamis beasts. The emotion element of their origin lends itself well methinks. And would explain weird ability and powerscaling. Also Feyfication of Amaro.

For development: Dancers and Bards. One does not need to retcon that it was always Dynamis, yet one can develop that now that they Know the power potential of feelings they can be more focused/deliberate with it. What I would love is to use Dynamis to distinguish War and DRK more among themselves. Both can go eitherway though so its a tough one. Perhaps both go Dynamis route and DRK is harnessing Resentment and WAR - Rage?

I'm more inclined to agree with what Veloran is saying. The idea that the writers should treat the fans as "misbehaving" for bothering to familiarise themselves with what knowledge they themselves have provided - in some cases ambiguous and uncertain, yes - is backwards, IMO - a certain other developer used to do this. Especially when it serves to entrench the view that what they're doing is invoking gimmicky plot devices to make a story otherwise meant to span over 2 expansions work. I don't think dynamis is inherently a bad idea, particularly because there have been suggestions for a while now of some irreducible aspect to the soul (now whether dynamis is that or not is another question), but the way it was introduced was not great and lends itself to the interpretation Veloran is giving it.

Going to give my take on Dynamis even though it feels like I'm beating my head against a wall here (because a lot of people in these very forums seem to look in just black and white).

Dynamis being added changes everything and nothing at the same time. I say everything because it's a brand new concept that has a lot of potential and also makes us question what is and isn't dynamis in the story. It changes nothing because even with Dynamis added, it does not change the fact that aether is in play. You LB, you're still using Aether, Dynamis is just another force acting alongside it. Aether corruption is still a thing, Dynamis just acts as an outward force that can effect it. Monsters using aether is still a thing, dynamis just brings into question what their mindsets are using it (think Behemoths casting Meteor as they die).

But a lot of people in these very forums seem to think that it's all aether, and can't be anything more. The world and everything is made up of a mixture of things, from the ground itself, the air, to even water. So why can't aether also be mixed with dynamis?

Honestly, most of the community seems fine with Dynamis and review scores praising the story seem to support that. It's really only the forums here where some really vocal people seem to hate it. Some people hate anything that challenges their established view of lore (look at Fallout and the hatred of the FO3 Brotherhood of Steel by some for not being carbon copies of the original version, though it's thoroughly explained why they changed).

Personally, I don't feel like Dynamis is out of place. It adds to the lore and doesn't really retcon or take anything away from it. I also love the scientific correlations between aether/dynamis and real world forces/dark energy. We make new discoveries every day in the real world to explain things that were either unexplainable or we were just flat out wrong about. Why can't the same be done in a fictional world?

This should be an exciting time for lore nerds as there's an entirely new concept to explore. Personally, I'm excited to see where they take it next.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Due to the nature of sundered shards, and the 13th possibly being the last split, it's possible the aetherial density is naturally so thin there that modern Eorzean aetheromiters cannot even detect it.

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Regardless of whether the Void has no aether, has extremely low aetheric density to the point of being undetectable, or has no usable aether (i.e. entropy), it doesn't explain what power source the Voidsent use, unless they're literally Laplace's Demons. If they were dependent on Aether alone, they'd have to be a bunch of emaciated weaklings. You'd be better off powering Void Ark using the combined INT scores and spellcasting prowess of a group of Warriors.

It's actually kind of funny that the word Akasha is a Vedic equivalent of the Greco-Roman Aether. Thematically implicit in all this is an interplay between thought and feeling, western and eastern philosophic tradition, science and mysticism. Every viewpoint that you see presented, be it that of the Ancients, the dead civilizations at the edge of the universe, or even Hermes and Metieon's nihilism make logical sense on a purely intellectual level, yet they all turn out to be spiritually barren in the end. "After all these years, was this the answer that I was hoping for?" It's hardly surprising that our rejection of these 'utopias' at the story's climax is based in an appeal to the heart and spirit; an expression of Dynamis.

I'm not at all surprised that people struggle to reconcile the two, and it reflects our cultural values and prejudices.

Since 5.0 I assumed the aether of the 13th is just so astrally charged (if aether is water, then consider astral to be boiling and umbral frozen) that it's inimical to life, and voidsent are only "aether starved" in that they seek out balanced aether because they have an instinctive urge to reach homeostasis. Paging @anonymoose

Also Dynamis is fine. I think loreheads are just alienated by EW in general because it's figurative/emotional storytelling where "because love" is a valid answer to essential questions. Thought versus feeling, Apollonian versus Dionysian (Dynamis?)

Yeah, like when a living organism is starving and needs food, that doesn't mean its body can't still be used for food and processed into metabolic for something else.

While Sin Eaters are Umbral and when they gorge and feast on aether they keep it in stasis and just desire more to accumulate, while Voidsent are constantly actively burning through the aether they feast upon. Both create a void of aether in different ways.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

I reject the idea of retroactively attributing things that were already easily explained as aetherial phenomena as Dynamis just because it's the new hot topic and lacks any rules or clear display of what it even is or does.

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The Endsinger fight LITERALLY retconned the Limit Breaks tho as being Dynamis...

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkyllark

The Endsinger fight LITERALLY retconned the Limit Breaks tho as being Dynamis...

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And yet the Ancients can still do it.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkyllark

The Endsinger fight LITERALLY retconned the Limit Breaks tho as being Dynamis...

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Just because "transcending our limits" either generates/or is fueled by dynamis doesn't mean our limit breaks are just straight up Dynamis. BLM LB3 is literally summoning a giant crystallized mass of aether, regardless of dynamis