Why is no one talking about the fact they removed fist of fire, wind, and earth? they got rid of one of our main damage buffs and a damage reduction buff and for what just to make twin snakes Abit more useful?
You're all missing one big important change with monk
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12-26-2021, 10:55 PMLeeAterYou're all missing one big important change with monk
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12-26-2021, 11:09 PMMikey_R
You sat in FoF for 99-100% of a fight, they were literally just a button to press at the start of a fight and never touch again. They were pointless, especially after they removed similar things from other jobs like the Venoms from Ninja.
Noone misses them, that is why noone talks about them. -
12-27-2021, 12:11 AMssunny2008I miss FoW. It has been superior with GL4. Don´t know why SE shit on it instead of giving it to us in some other way. Was great in MNK´s flow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey_R
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12-27-2021, 07:55 AMMikey_R
They could just add it to the GL traits or give a Fists of Wind trait that adds it at some early level.
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12-27-2021, 03:59 PMIckeDerTyp
We don't want stances here,capiche?! :D
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12-27-2021, 04:38 PMssunny2008Imagine they would´ve used the stance as skilltrees instead of catering us with more "similar-playing classes".Quote:
Originally Posted by IckeDerTyp
- Fists of Earth for Tankmonk
- Fists of Wind for a fast positional-heavy gameplay with Dots to play around. (MNK we had + 1 more Dot?!)
- Fists of Fire for less positionals and burst gameplay (MNK we have now...)
This would´ve solved a lot and would´ve made Monk more accessible for everyone. But no.... -
12-27-2021, 05:00 PMMagiusNecros
Shoulda kept Fist of Wind. How am I supposed to cruise around cities now. >_<
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12-27-2021, 10:01 PMLeeAterPeople like you are the reason they got rid of those kinds of skills, not everyone likes their class to be dumbed down and simplified to the point where all classes start having the same skillsQuote:
Originally Posted by Mikey_R
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12-27-2021, 10:23 PMMikey_R
Lucky for you, I did see your deleted comment, so it is intriguing why you have decided to delete it and not allow commentary on it? Though, switching to FoE to mitigate damage should be the absolute last resort, you would be better off using Second Wind/Bloodbath and staying in FoF. There was no issue with using RoE either, it had such a short cooldown and you didn't need that many positional ignoring stacks either. If its a dungeon fight where your tank and healer decided to have a nap, you would be better off killing the boss quicker, RoE again reduces damage and still allows you to keep full damage, which also benefits Bloodbath and Second Wind. You aren't going to be surviving any significant amount of time without a healer, FOE or not.
However, you have failed to address the core issue. How often did you actually use them? As I stated, the vast majority of Monks stayed in FoF 99% of the time, making it essentially a permanent damage buff. It was a filler action. If you had all 3 Fists and none of them provided a damage benefit, then you wouldn't see this issue. I have said in the past that, instead of removing them completely, you can have them as lesser Riddles, eg. Fists of Fire at level 40, gives a 5% damage increase for 20 seconds on a 60 second cooldown, then a trait at 68 that changes it to Riddle of Fire which increases the damage up to 15% and use similar concepts for the others.
At the end of the day, a buff that you do not have to manage which is uninteresting. The other fists never done anything of interest except Fists of Wind have the Tornado Kick rotation at the end of SB and being in FoW at the start of ShB, purely because it gave access to GL4. By keeping them, it just adds unused actions that could be used elsewhere. -
12-27-2021, 11:28 PMssunny2008Srsly 90% or more ppl here in the forum only debate for more broken stuff, homogenization and "please don´t give us unique or niche skills /mechanics". I can´t speak for every post of Mikey, but he´s one of the guys understanding, how important uniqueness is and that classes shouldn´t be changed or homogenized just because some ppl, who rarely or never played them, dislike their whole kit.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeAter
I can tell you, that i clearly miss the fists for some kind of variety and that SE had a lot of possibilities to make them shine. But i don´t miss them since yeah... every serious player stucked on FoF 99,9% of the whole game. Only Shb MNK brought us some variety with GL4, but that´s it. SE is just too lazy to rework stuff properly or to give the players more options to play around.
Nocturnal got deleted on AST too and we got a "barrier healer" called Sage in exchange. That guy with 2 barriers you never want to use and 2 other barriers with high cooldown for multihits only, meanwhile sitting on tons of standard heals and damage reduction. Says enough about SE´s competence and how much freedom and variety they want to leave to us players. Definately none...
I know why it´s no difference for better players, but i´ve seen a lot of casuals running around with FoW in standard content. Of course the choice is bad if you just compare it in its use, but such players have felt more comfortable with it. So why not?! Not everything has to be made for raiding or needs to fit a proper role. Sometimes it´s just about possibilities and own preferences. Such ppl have accepted to do less damage to have some more fun, to be more mobile, to play safer... i wish some other guys would´ve been like that about positionals aka "I don´t like them, i don´t play them.... whoever likes them, should enjoy them!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey_R
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12-28-2021, 12:04 AMBhearil
The fist stances were a heritage from 1.0 where each one gave that element to your atacks making monks versatile cycling around the enemies elemental's weaknesses. When 2.0 arrived and elemental damage was virtually removed, fist stances became mere button bloat because the times you would be using anything other than Fire one were extremely niche and small. They eventually tried to fix it with no sucess (4th greased on wind stance as well as the horrendous elemental shoulder tackles system that opened a different can of worms) due to the game favoring damage over anything else as long as you dont die soin the end you stayed on the strongest one and then on EW they finally removed those for good
Removing bloat is not bad, problem is they dont give anything later, but fist stances since 2.0 were neither fun nor engaging but a permanent toogle you had always on barring some extremely niche cases where it was useful to swap to another from the damage one (Fire/Wind depending on the version),
As it was mentioned before there is a reason why the Fist stances are barely mentioned after they were removed -
12-28-2021, 02:35 AMSpeckledBurd
As I've said before, for all that the Fist Stances might have had potential to be an interesting part of Monk's kit, that potential is meaningless if it was never actually implemented. In fact, The Fist Stances actually detracted from Monk's development by repeatedly receiving traits that functionally did nothing, instead of those traits being implemented in other parts of Monk's kit that also had potential.
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12-28-2021, 07:44 AMLeeAterI deleted the comment because I messed up and forgot to put your post as a quote on it, and you're Right about most people using fist of fire for 99% of the time, but it was a nice to be able to be a half tank if the tank went down up until the healer got them back up and healed again. I probably could have worded my post better to not sound like a jackassnand I apologize for that, I'm just not a big fan of getting rid of the uniqueness of each class which the game devs seem to be slowly doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey_R
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12-28-2021, 07:49 AMLeeAter
A change I would have made instead of what they did would make each fist stance Abit different such as giving each skill a special effect depending on which stance you were in kinda like what Astro use to be. But it seems my way of thinking is completely opposite to what a majority of people want
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12-28-2021, 07:53 AMAwarewolfYeah that’s all I miss. We will have to switch jobs in town lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
Fist of Wind, Ninja passive: +10% run speed
Pelaton: +20% run speed
Sprint, Scholars new run speed buff: +30%.
Wait a second, didn’t they say something about Sprint lasting a minute in towns now? -
12-28-2021, 12:07 PMPowercowThere's a free company buff thing (it replaced the one that reduced the duration of the Weakened debuff).Quote:
Originally Posted by Awarewolf
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12-28-2021, 12:20 PMIchiExorz
I think the fist stances were a nice flavour to the class but mostly useless in combat.
Having a movement speed buff was nice to have but near useless in combat.
The Fists of Earth ability was nice during downtime to mitigate some damage.
It's not that i'm necessarily sad to see them go for the sake of button bloat but part of me wishes more classes had very niche flavour skills that are pointless in combat at worst and very situational at best. -
12-28-2021, 12:55 PMSorzaiThey don't have to be so useful in combat, if the reason they removed it is because of button bloat, that's a load of bs because i find that these stances hold more meaning than having SSS or Anatman.Quote:
Originally Posted by IchiExorz
Having the different stances made the class fun, plus it made gives the feeling like one is more in control of their character. I mean Stance change to Fist of Earth + Riddle of Earth = got amazing damage mitigation which is SUPER satisfying. i'd honestly take Fist stances back than having bs like Riddle of Wind, Celestial Revolution? Steel Peak(Wtf? that's just Shoulder Tackle)? -
12-28-2021, 05:21 PMMikey_RI just checked, it is the old Steel Peak animation. Shoulder Tackle you rushed in and punched. Yes, it is backwards, yes, it was always something that people wanted changed as it seemed the animations were the wrong way round.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorzai
As for Fists, to add to that discussion. If you want to have the Fists back, you need to make it so that they do not provide any damage increase, otherwise, that will be the fist that will be used. -
12-28-2021, 06:33 PMIruruCeceI'm not sure what makes anyone think Fist of the Earth provided "amazing" damage mitigation, ever, so I'm assuming it's a 2.0 thing that has been exaggerated in value over the years. It was never the case for me throughout HW, SB, or ShB. If you were ever in a position where a boss looked at you funny, especially in high-end content, you were getting splatted and FoE wasn't going to save you. Maybe it might have help during dungeons, but dungeons are barely more than linear theme parts that get pulled wall to wall, so again if you were the Monk caught in a group of 6-10 mobs (or heck, even just 2-3 really beefy bigbois) and the tank didn't rip aggro off you right away, you were definitely going to end up as crater meat. Even with self-healing in a large group, you weren't living long or at all at the center of attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorzai
The reality is that AT BEST the scenario described is an extreme edge case. 99.9999999 percent of the time, you'd sit in Fire non-stop in HW, you'd sit in Fire in SB, and for me it was ShB where we had the impetus to switch Fist stances mid-way through the opener (start in fire until GL3, switch to Wind to push to 4, stay in Wind forever/until boss does a cutscene that forces us to reopen because we lost GL rather than SE doing the needful and at least freezing these types of temporary buffs while the artists flexed a game engine at us).
There was nothing dynamic going on with Fist stances, and people had been complaining about that for a long time, even before I started to play. SE consistently failed to provide any real reason to actively switch between them the vast majority of the time. They were kept in because of design inertia, similar to how Tornado Kick used to strip away GL entirely for the longest time: "It's just how it is."