Really liking Sage but...

Would it be possible to swap our healing spell effects. Could it be a barrier / small heal first and a pure heal next after using Eurkrasia?

I ask cause I'm very reaction based and I wait till I see the enemy casting something and as a controller player by the time I scroll to the tank then hit Eurkrasia and then the Barrier the enemy has already cast the spell.

Or make Eurkrasia a toggle or stance like effect? Just spouting ideas at this point. :)

If you are more reaction based, then barrier healer is probably not ideal for you because your role is to mitigate damage.
Have you tried WHM and AST?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

Would it be possible to swap our healing spell effects. Could it be a barrier / small heal first and a pure heal next after using Eurkrasia?

I ask cause I'm very reaction based and I wait till I see the enemy casting something and as a controller player by the time I scroll to the tank then hit Eurkrasia and then the Barrier the enemy has already cast the spell.

Or make Eurkrasia a toggle or stance like effect? Just spouting ideas at this point. :)

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Why aren't you hitting Eukrasia while scrolling to get to the tank? Or before you begin scrolling? I use M/KB so im not suyre if maybe theres a bind conflict going on for that.

Even more reason for Healer DPS buttons to have built in <tt> effects though, I never run into this issue because i use a <tt> macro for DPS so I'm never NOT targetting the Tank.

I also don't really have issues with seeing a Buster in progress and double tapping for E-Diag before it goes off. I actually have more success at this than i do with Adloq because the combined cast for E-Diag is 1 second (Eukrasia -> Instant E-Diag) compared to the 2 second cast for Adloq to be applied.
I also get Kerachole and E-Prog off on the party just in time too, where I'm more used to Succor landing a touch late if i started the cast at the same moment during the incoming damage windup.

Funnily, Eukrasia working the way it does has made my Scholar feel really awkward by comparison. Way too used to the absolute freedom of movement Sage has. Lost count of the times Ill stop, cast Adloq and it be interrupted because the server thought i was still moving.
All the healers feel a bit awkward to play for me after Sage tbh though >_>

Something you could try though is creating a Target macro for your hotbar to switch your target to the Tank (Either by using Party Member# or "Target of Target") so that you have a dedicated hotbar button for targetting a Tank instead of needing to cycle through the list every time?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Why aren't you hitting Eukrasia while scrolling to get to the tank? Or before you begin scrolling? I use M/KB so im not suyre if maybe theres a bind conflict.

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You cant scroll party list and use actions like eukrasia or draw at the same time. They're either gonna lock on your current target (unlocking from the mob you wanna attack) or the cursor will just disappear. The only way to deal with it is to macro or eukrasia before scroll or losing DPS.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

You cant scroll party list and use actions like eukrasia or draw at the same time. They're either gonna lock on your current target (unlocking from the mob you wanna attack) or the cursor will just disappear. The only way to deal with it is to macro or eukrasia before scroll or losing DPS.

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you can still scroll the party list while you cast dosis/malefic before using eukrasia or draw. a whole gcd is plenty of time



and to OP: if the tank didnt die from the lack of shield, what even is the point of shielding in the first place? soteria/druochole/taurochole after the buster is both"reactive" and also more than enough

Quote:

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Originally Posted by QooEr

you can still scroll the party list while you cast dosis/malefic before using eukrasia or draw. a whole gcd is plenty of time

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You miss the point.
Yes i can scroll the party before the GCD ends but this will result in the cursor resetting (losing soft lock on) the moment I press Eukrasia (which is step 1 of a 2 step process) unless you hard lock-on onto the person you want to shield which causes you to lose aim from the mob. Yes, you can just hold a trigger and press a bumper and most of the time you're gonna lock back onto whatever you were aiming at but this makes it just unnecessarily clunky when most healing just requires a soft lock-on. This is probably what OP is referring to.

It doesn't bother me personally just explaining it to a fellow M&KB user how certain gameplay mechanics don't translate well to controller.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

Would it be possible to swap our healing spell effects. Could it be a barrier / small heal first and a pure heal next after using Eurkrasia?

I ask cause I'm very reaction based and I wait till I see the enemy casting something and as a controller player by the time I scroll to the tank then hit Eurkrasia and then the Barrier the enemy has already cast the spell.

Or make Eurkrasia a toggle or stance like effect? Just spouting ideas at this point. :)

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Generally, barrier healers are more proactive in healing versus reactive—since the entire purpose of them is to mitigate incoming damage versus just raw healing through it. If you want to learn how to play them effectively, you are going to have to learn how to heal/mitigate in a proactive fashion.

That said, your oGCDs are more than enough to use in most content. Rarely will you need to use your Eukrasian shields over an oGCD.

Have you considered trying to use Target Select vs. Target Circle?

You can cycle and perform actions at the same time. Change your filter to enemies so you can cancel your target, press X And it’ll re-target the boss. I can react pretty easily since the tank is literally one or two taps down.

*Sees red* -> Tap Eukrasia -> Tap down -> Tap Diagnosis.

Play controller as well, found macro'ing <t> and <tt> to skills super helpful, I personally have them on my dps skills so I can just target the tank or someone in party while being able to hit boss or w/e they are bashing. But you can also pop those macros on heals so you can keep target of enemies and heal whoever they are attacking.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanayumi

Play controller as well, found macro'ing <t> and <tt> to skills super helpful, I personally have them on my dps skills so I can just target the tank or someone in party while being able to hit boss or w/e they are bashing. But you can also pop those macros on heals so you can keep target of enemies and heal whoever they are attacking.

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I would really recommend not using any macros at all—but especially not to macro your heals. Macros do not queue like normal skills in this game, and there are inherent delays with them because they cannot queue with normal abilities. A delay in a heal caused by the way the macro system works is far more detrimental.

The only macros that are really recommended are mouse over macros for things like AST cards or SCH’s Fae Union, and a raise macro. Otherwise, they aren’t that recommended, and are likely to be more of a hindrance than a help.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I would really recommend not using any macros at all—but especially not to macro your heals. Macros do not queue like normal skills in this game, and there are inherent delays with them because they cannot queue with normal abilities. A delay in a heal caused by the way the macro system works is far more detrimental.

The only macros that are really recommended are mouse over macros for things like AST cards or SCH’s Fae Union, and a raise macro. Otherwise, they aren’t that recommended, and are likely to be more of a hindrance than a help.

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I actually tested having DPS buttons on the <tt> macro recently.

Over a 60 second period:
Macro: 25 Dosis casts.
No Macro: 26 Dosis casts.

Losing one Dosis GCD per minute is IMO an acceptable loss compared against the smoother gameplay offered by having the DPS buttons use the <tt> macro.

You could argue the macroless DPS rotation is objectively better because you get that extra GCD.
But I argue that I lose less DPS to use the macro because no matter what I'm targeting I'm always aiming a Dosis at the boss.

It's a personal thing. Some people will feel more comfortable with the incessant target switching.
So I'll keep suggesting that people should give the macro a shot (only on the dps, never on a heal) and see how it feels for them.
But I'll always maintain that it should be a natural function of healer dps spells.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I would really recommend not using any macros at all—but especially not to macro your heals. Macros do not queue like normal skills in this game, and there are inherent delays with them because they cannot queue with normal abilities. A delay in a heal caused by the way the macro system works is far more detrimental.

The only macros that are really recommended are mouse over macros for things like AST cards or SCH’s Fae Union, and a raise macro. Otherwise, they aren’t that recommended, and are likely to be more of a hindrance than a help.

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I actually tested having DPS buttons on the <tt> macro recently.

Over a 60 second period:
Macro: 25 Dosis casts.
No Macro: 26 Dosis casts.

Losing one Dosis GCD per minute is IMO an acceptable loss compared against the smoother gameplay offered by having the DPS buttons use the <tt> macro.

You could argue the macroless DPS rotation is objectively better because you get that extra GCD.
But I argue that I lose less DPS to use the macro because no matter what I'm targeting I'm always aiming a Dosis at the boss.

It's a personal thing. Some people will feel more comfortable with the incessant target switching.
So I'll keep suggesting that people should give the macro a shot (only on the dps, never on a heal) and see how it feels for them.
But I'll always maintain that it should be a natural function of healer dps spells.

Losing a GCD per minute isnt good. WHM already try not using Lillies because it loses a single GCD in potency every 90s. Really wish they'd already fix the macro qeue system.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sylve

I actually tested having DPS buttons on the <tt> macro recently.

Over a 60 second period:
Macro: 25 Dosis casts.
No Macro: 26 Dosis casts.

Losing one Dosis GCD per minute is IMO an acceptable loss compared against the smoother gameplay offered by having the DPS buttons use the <tt> macro.

You could argue the macroless DPS rotation is objectively better because you get that extra GCD.
But I argue that I lose less DPS to use the macro because no matter what I'm targeting I'm always aiming a Dosis at the boss.

It's a personal thing. Some people will feel more comfortable with the incessant target switching.
So I'll keep suggesting that people should give the macro a shot (only on the dps, never on a heal) and see how it feels for them.
But I'll always maintain that it should be a natural function of healer dps spells.

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And I will argue that not using macro is the better way to play regardless of your “testing”. “1 GCD a minute” adds up over the course of a fight—and you aren’t accounting for other losses that are likely to occur due to movement. Or even due to uncontrollable things like lag and packet loss, which just exacerbate the issues surrounding macros and queuing.

I’m not one to advocate for purposely gimping oneself in any level of content. I don’t care if you’re a bean sprout or a veteran. I won’t recommend combat macros regardless because it’s an objectively subpar way to play. It’s a needless crutch that won’t help a person grow as a player. Even if they aren’t aspiring to be a raider.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

And I will argue that not using macro is the better way to play regardless of your “testing”. “1 GCD a minute” adds up over the course of a fight—and you aren’t accounting for other losses that are likely to occur due to movement. Or even due to uncontrollable things like lag and packet loss, which just exacerbate the issues surrounding macros and queuing.

I’m not one to advocate for purposely gimping oneself in any level of content. I don’t care if you’re a bean sprout or a veteran. I won’t recommend combat macros regardless because it’s an objectively subpar way to play. It’s a needless crutch that won’t help a person grow as a player. Even if they aren’t aspiring to be a raider.

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If you enjoy the gameplay of "Cast-retarget-Cast-retarget-Cast-retarget-Cast-retarget" for 10+ minutes straight, Go for it.
Speaking purely from a subjective standpoint, Being able to simeltaneously cast DPS at the boss and oGCD heals at my party members without needing to retarget every 2 seconds is simply better gameplay.

I have tried for years to "train" myself to not use the macro. And every single time i try it, i perform worse. On healing AND dps. I'm probably not alone in that.
No part of this game requires absolute perfection to clear. Not even Savage. Proof of that is in the Logs.
A loss rate of 1 GCD per minute over the course of a full 10 minute fight will only hold up a fight by a handful of seconds at most.

I fully understand the reasons why SQenix have a punishment on macros for combat usage. They do not want us to be able to automate rotations and achieve maximum performance.
Healers though, we're the only role in the game that requires switching targets constantly even when only 1 enemy is present.
As such, the macro command should be the default nature of the spells.
The game subjectively feels considerably better to play as a Healer using this macro.
Objectively, targetdummy DPS is higher when not using the macro.
Personally, Using the macro enables a better performance than not using the macro.

This is why i suggest to anyone who has any kind of issue with doing DPS while healing to try the macro. If they're struggling with the default systems, Mayhaps using it will help them too.
Not everyone is a pitch perfect player who can absolutely nail their GCD timings with total precision.
I know I'll never reach the lofty heights of a 99th percentile DPS healer, for a great many reasons. The macro isnt one of them.
I'll not sacrifice my sanity and smooth gameplay on the altar of gaining 3% more DPS.

The problem is more that I'm sitting there casting DPS spells and then the boss suddenly starts casting while I'm in the middle of or just started casting a DPS spell. Which I then need to use Eurkasia and a barrior spell after my DPS spell finishes and before the tank buster goes out. And it's impossible to remember EVERY fight in this game to know, "oh the boss is going to do a tank buster or AoE attack after 2 auto attacks or what not. But I don't main heal and don't use them once I get them to max level anyway so maybe my problem isn't anything to be concerned about heh.

I would also like Plegma to be a ranged spell and Icoras to work like En Avant. I'm not sure why it requires a target. Again especially for controller players.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

Losing a GCD per minute isnt good. WHM already try not using Lillies because it loses a single GCD in potency every 90s. Really wish they'd already fix the macro qeue system.

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Losing a GCD in a minute is meaningless outside of Savage / Ultimate content which is where 90% of the playerbase is.

Especially a healer DPS GCD. They don't account for that much anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Losing a GCD in a minute is meaningless outside of Savage / Ultimate content which is where 90% of the playerbase is.

Especially a healer DPS GCD. They don't account for that much anyway.

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I find it difficult to believe that you only lose 1 GCD per minute. There wasn’t any evidence of these test results provided by the person who put them forward, so hence my skepticism. As well as just with how macros in this game work in general.

Last I checked, you couldn’t program them to function with <wait.2.5> intervals, meaning you’re either having to do <wait.2> or <wait.3>; which will result in GCD clipping and delay. Each GCD clipped/delayed adds up in the amount of GCDs you lose.

If you do a base <wait.3>, then after 5 GCDs at a 2.5s recast, you’ve already lost 1 GCD. And that’s only after 15 seconds by the macro’s standard, AND at base GCD. So not accounting for any sort of spell speed you may have on your gear that causes your GCD to be even lower. Weaving oGCDs will clip and delay your next Dosis cast even more, since macros won’t queue. Assuming you have no oGCDs to weave, over the course of a minute at 2.5 GCD, you would get 24 Dosis III casts. If you are using the <wait.3> macro, then you only get 20, resulting in 4 lost Dosis III casts. After two minutes, 8 lost casts. Three minutes, 12 lost casts. It adds up; and it will only get worse any time you need to weave in an Addersgall ability or Lucid Dreaming, which you should be doing for mana upkeep.

Just because this isn’t Savage/Ultimate tier play doesn’t mean you should enable bad playstyles.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sylve

I have tried for years to "train" myself to not use the macro. And every single time i try it, i perform worse. On healing AND dps. I'm probably not alone in that.
No part of this game requires absolute perfection to clear. Not even Savage. Proof of that is in the Logs.
A loss rate of 1 GCD per minute over the course of a full 10 minute fight will only hold up a fight by a handful of seconds at most.

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You are likely struggling to retrain yourself to not use macros because you’ve grown complacent using them. They’ve become a crutch you have started to rely on, and you don’t know how to function without them. There will always be learning curves when you start trying something new—such as not using them—but if you keep going back to your old style of playing, then you will never learn the new style.

I never said anything required perfection to clear. That doesn’t change my stance, though. If I get a sprout healer that asks me for advice, I’m not going to hand them a crutch to use. I’m going to advise that they learn how to toggle between tank, party members, and bosses/mobs versus using <tt> macros. There are some abilities I would recommend a <tt> macro for, such as perhaps Krasis and Exaltation; but I would never recommend macroing their GCD healing abilities to them.

I’m not a 99th percentile healer either, by the way. You don’t have to be to not use macros.

1 GCD lost per minute does sound about right to be fair. It's not as massive a loss as some might claim. That said it's still a loss worth considering. For a Sage over an 8 minute fight you're talking 2640 potency lost. It can also be worse in an actual raid fight where you're trying to weave multiple abilities or focus on mechanics and may be more likely to have your macro fail to fire. So often more like 3500 potency lost. That's not small.

If you have to use macros, I'd recommend mouseover for single target oGCD heals. While mouseover also comes issues, oGCD macros are less harmful. It allows you to target the boss the whole fight and is flexible while having almost no target switching. You can hit high orange in Savage or Ultimate even with mouseovers, but macroing your most frequently used GCD's would cause you to struggle to scrape purple.

I can understand macro'ing GCD's if you've really tested everything and suffer more loss without it. It might be the correct evaluation to make and you could still play at an average level with it. But I'd never freely recommend it to others. It's a last resort.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I find it difficult to believe that you only lose 1 GCD per minute. There wasn’t any evidence of these test results provided by the person who put them forward, so hence my skepticism. As well as just with how macros in this game work in general.

Last I checked, you couldn’t program them to function with <wait.2.5> intervals, meaning you’re either having to do <wait.2> or <wait.3>; which will result in GCD clipping and delay. Each GCD clipped/delayed adds up in the amount of GCDs you lose.

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I feel like you're misunderstanding the macro. Its right here:
/micon "Dosis"
/macroerror off
/ac "Dosis" <tt>

There is no wait command, all it's doing directing my spell at my targets target. AKA, The boss that my party member is targetting.
FFXIV is the only game i know of that punishes Healers for doing this, and FFXIV is not the only MMO i've ever healed and did DPS on.

The test you can do yourself. Grab yourself a parser (or screen record and count it with a stopwatch)
60 second period.
Spam Dosis via macro for the full 60 seconds.
Spam Dosis without macro for the full 60 seconds.
When i did this, 25 casts with macro, 26 without.

The only check it's doing is confirming that theres a viable target to cast Dosis at.
The only drawback to using it is the lack of queueing. Thats it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I can understand macro'ing GCD's if you've really tested everything and suffer more loss without it. It might be the correct evaluation to make and you could still play at an average level with it. But I'd never freely recommend it to others. It's a last resort.

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What the heck do you mean by "fail to fire"? I've never experienced this. When i press my Dosis macro, i cast Dosis. When Dosis finishes casting and the GCD is rolling, i can drop my oGCDs on whoever needs them.
I do not enjoy having to switch targets between enemy/ally constantly. I have expressed this a number of times. Even told you all that i accept the slight reduction in DPS that using this macro entails. Not once have i claimed that it an objectively better method. I do not care that targetting the boss at all times is objectively better DPS.
I have only stated that i, personally, subjectively prefer to hold my target on friendlies and have my offensive casts redirected to my targets target. This is the only thing i want the Devs to do. Make the <tt> part of the macro the default nature of the spell.
Why do i want that? So i can use my damn UI the way I want to use it without being punched in the gut for it. And YOU can use YOUR UI the way YOU want and we get an equal result.

I only suggest that someone tries the macro if they find themselves struggling with the default. Perhaps for them, as it does for me, it will help make the experience better.
Understand now?

And your lack of queuing with your macro will result in more lost GCDs the more oGCDs you have to use in a fight because macros do not queue in this game. It’s not my responsibility to go out and test your theories. Rather you have to provide evidence to your claim. Regardless, I’m not going to recommend subpar play to anyone. I also do not see the need to make healer DPS abilities inherently <tt> macros. It really isn’t that hard to toggle between party members and enemies.

What Liam means by fail to fire is the failure for the macro itself to go off the first time you press it. This does happen, especially during times of lag/ping spikes, or if you try to press your next button too quickly, resulting in the macro not registering and not going off. It happens with oGCD macros. It happens with Swiftcast+Rez macros. And it will happen with yours because macros are flawed in this game. That is another drawback you are failing to consider with your suggestion. You’ve probably experienced it before and never even noticed.



If you want to suggest people use macros, then fine. But others can also suggest they don’t because macros are not well-built in this game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

And your lack of queuing with your macro will result in more lost GCDs

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What part of:

Quote:

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Make the <tt> part of the macro the default nature of the spell.
Why do i want that? So i can use my damn UI the way I want to use it without being punched in the gut for it. And YOU can use YOUR UI the way YOU want and we get an equal result.

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Is difficult for you to understand?
The only gameplay change that occurs if the Devs acquiese to my request is that i can lock my target onto a party member and queue Dosis spells like any regular ability.

You want to target the boss and switch to allies constantly to heal them? You do you.
I want to target allies and have my DPS directed towards my targets target? I get to do that.

We both win. You lose absolutely nothing for this to be added and i stop losing minute amounts of DPS using a <tt> macro.
You are quite literally telling me how you want me to use my UI.

The situation you're describing and calling a "failure to fire" is because your client registers the GCD as being done but the server still sees you being on GCD. Its a scenario that occurs in every single online game that does not have queuing for its abilities. Its not a "failure" of the macro, its a simple disparity between what the server sees and what you see in the client.
My latency is a stable 147 through Exitlag, monitored constantly.
My personal habit, developed over 2 decades of playing on NA servers from Australia is such that the situation you describe does not occur because i do not press my GCDs just once per 2.5 seconds and expect things to work flawlessly.
My spells cast when i want them to because my keybinds ensure that they do.

This may come as a shock to you given your constant harping about lost GCDs and DPS in general, but lemme shout it out for you: I do not care to try to reach absolute mechanical perfection in regards to DPS
Was that clear enough for you? There a good many reasons why i do not care. Chief among them is that if reaching such perfection requires sacrificing my gameplay experience in pursuit of it, i will simply be happy to achieve "Average success" and not force myself into content where that kind of perfection is the expected play.

So i will continue to use this macro and suggest it to others who might benefit from it as i have. Right up until the Devs make it the default effect for the spell. And if they list it as part of the spell effect tooltip, it might even encourage the non-DPSers in the community that its really not that bad to press the buttons every now and again.

And you are quite free to explain why macro's can lead to DPS loss. Just try to understand that there are people playing this game who do actually see improvements to their performance when certain types of macros are used.
The macro system isn't perfect, But it gets the job done.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sylve

You are quite literally telling me how you want me to use my UI.

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No, I’m not. I don’t care what you do. I’m just explaining why macros aren’t good for combat and why I don’t recommend them to others; and why I will continue not to recommend them to others. My initial response in this thread against macros wasn’t even towards you. It was in response to someone else. I explained my position then as I have explained it to you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sylve

This may come as a shock to you given your constant harping about lost GCDs and DPS in general, but lemme shout it out for you: I do not care to try to reach absolute mechanical perfection in regards to DPS

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That's fine.

What's not fine is your insistence that you suggest GCD macros to anyone who has the slightest struggle with target switching. How do you know that player doesn't care about performing well? Not everyone who struggles has your mindset. You don't inform them of the downsides, considerations and disadvantages of macro usage, you don't offer them alternative advice to make target switching easier that they can try first before taking the last resort of a macro. Heck, you don't even know what a macro misfire is. That's basic and unrelated to latency. Instead you go out of your way to play it down and state that it's a "tiny loss" and doesn't matter with no math or figures to your claim.

You're spreading misinformation without any research and getting very aggressive with anyone who doesn't agree with you. Quite frankly, you aren't in any way qualified to give advice on the subject.

Reminds me of Blue Mage carnival - trying to interrupt boss in time while burning adds and flipping between targets to not insta die. Setting Focus Target helps but it can be hard to see the cast bar. Maybe its sizeable I haven't tried. I have been swapping from reaction healer to barrier healer so I understand the challenges there. The best thing I ever did was force myself to level a tank so I could improve my attention to the cast bars since blocking and Dmg Reduction CDs are critical to tanking. It made a huge difference. When I got back to scholar it was night and day. And I apologize to every healer that had to put up with me along the way. LOL =)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

You cant scroll party list and use actions like eukrasia or draw at the same time. They're either gonna lock on your current target (unlocking from the mob you wanna attack) or the cursor will just disappear. The only way to deal with it is to macro or eukrasia before scroll or losing DPS.

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I wanted to come back to this really quick because I think I found a solution recently, in two parts:

1. Character Configuration -> Control Settings -> Mouse -> Scroll Up/Down -> Scroll up/down through Party List
2. Character Configuration -> Control Settings -> Target -> Switch target circle to target select

Scrolling through the party list defaults as a "soft" target, that would disappear when using a skill/spell. This changes it to a regular target, where it will remain as your target until you change it yourself.

--

On the topic of macros, while I don't recommend them, my favorite thing to do with them in my early days was to make "smart" dps skills. For instance:

Quote:

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/micon "Dosis"
/macroerror off
/ac "Dosis" <t>
/ac "Dosis" <tt>
/ac "Dosis" <ft>

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This way, the spell will first be used on whatever you have targeted. If your target is invalid (a party member maybe) then it'll use it on your target's target. If there is no target's target, then it'll use it on your focus target. Since you can't cast Dosis twice instantly, only the first valid line will actually make it to cast, everything after won't be checked. That means if you do something like this, always keep <t> as the first one. Usually if you're targeting something, you're doing it for a reason (especially if it's really important).

Unfortunately you can't do this with heals, since any invalid target defaults to healing yourself. Hopefully this is useful for people who want to use macros. :)