[ENDWALKER MAJOR SPOILERS] But enough about that, what about you, Warrior of Light?

[Just a short warning at the top for those who wander in without reading the sign; STILL MAJOR ENDWALKER SPOILERS, GO FINISH THE EXPANSION AND THEN COME BACK!]

At the end, as those who have finished know, we fight Zenos, in a final battle to extinguish his light and lay to bed his lust for a battle to end all battles. But something that, and I'm sure a lot of other people have noticed, the options you have before the climatic finish don't exactly reflect anyone outside of those who do actually yearn for battle. I'll explain-

As Zeno stares us down in the emptiness of the universe's edge, he says something to us, the Warrior of Light, that boils down to; "admit it, you're still fighting because you yearn for a tougher battle, and live to see the challenges it brings." Which is a writer's way of saying "you, the player, only really look forward to tougher content, don't you?"
We're given 3, not at all unique from each other, answers to give.

"That, I can't deny."
"Think what you will. But I'm not letting you leave this place."
"I've had enough of you. It ends here."
(From here on out; Options 1, 2, and 3)

These options boil down to;
"Yeah you're right."
"I'm not going to say you're right, I just wanna fight."
"I will not honor you with a response. We end this now."

It leaves little to the RP part of RPG- and before I continue I'd like to note that I do understand that we can't have all the options in the world, I'm merely stating how all three are pretty much indistinguishable from each other.
As most of us know, Options 2 and 3 will have your character look towards Zenos with the determination to beat him in battle and leave this place, while Option 1 will have you smirk before Zenos mentions it to be the acceptance from you he's longed for.

But what I want to know is; what about you, Warrior of Light?

Not everyone enjoys running the toughest content, some of us enjoy taking our time to learn the things around us, which is why Trusts were implemented. And some still do harder content, but may not play just for that content. Or perhaps you're of the group that separates Extreme and Savage trials from canon?

Whatever the reason, I want to hear it from you. I want to know what every Warrior of Light continues to fight for as the war goes from saga to never ending journey.

For myself? I like to think that my Warrior of Light doesn't fight to pursue the next challenge, but because they want to protect everyone, come hell or high water.

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For myself? I like to think that my Warrior of Light doesn't fight to pursue the next challenge, but because they want to protect everyone, come hell or high water.

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thats basically why my wol keeps going. well that and things just kept escalating making it impossible to back out lol.

I'm in a bit of a torn position on this one, because while I personally disagree with all of these options, I know that the first option is generally what S-E 'writes for'.

I ended up going with the third option, because the general outlook I have for my character is 'I know I'm good at fighting, and I don't hate it, but my passion is elsewhere and I'm just here to help, so I want to go home'. Or essentially, 'I'm here for the story and the crafting'. Now, I certainly don't feel like that was the angle that scene was written for, judging by the overall response. I was hoping that the third option would be the one he teases where he just lets you leave.

That said, I am big into roleplaying, and don't play my character as the Warrior of Light. So I do enjoy painting the WoL as essentially the first option and having my character go 'I've never met them but I think they're a pushy busybody and a jerk'. The real WoL might not be the kind of person who does things only for fight glory and The Challenge, but she certainly thinks they are.

As someone who does like to raid, I STILL can't say that I'm only playing the game for a challenge. I enjoy this game because of its story. The narrative is what attracted me here and the friends I meet when I raid are why I stay. If I only wanted a challenge, there's many other things I could do. So I guess for my WoL, I adventure because there's always a great new story to be told and because it's fun.

I feel the same way, OP.

Even though we had different dialogue options the whole encounter had a "subtone" (I don't quite want to say subtext) of confirming Zenos' assertion, namely that even the most "honorable" and "noble" WoL had a part in herself or himself that mirrors Zenos' particular lust for/attitude on battle. Even though you can choose words that seemingly disagree with him the whole visual and narrative framing of the subsequent fight scenes is the same for all 3 options:

• the epic show-down of two equals
• the scenery and music that have this extremely cool and aesthetically satisfying vibe, because you are literally fighting who the game tries to cast as your personal nemesis at the edge of space (how extra in the best way possible is that)
• the raw fist fight full of unleashed anger which goes beyond the "I don't care about you, you have to be stopped" sentiment - these final scenes feel personal
• the "fist bump" (which again makes it feel like he is not just any dangerous enemy that you try to dispose of - it feels like a strong narrative emphasis of his personal importance to you)
• the parallel (almost-)death.

All in all, there is an implication of "want" in these scenes for me. To me it really appears like this is personal business after all, and even if it's for the "right" motives you seemingly do want to fight him to the very end and on some level enjoy it, to go to your limit and come out victorious.

I don't know what the English text says but in German, if you use option 3, Zenos says something along the lines of "Yes, unleash your lust for murder".
So, even if we want to put him in his place or hinder him from leaving, there is an implication that we might also burn to engage in an intense battle "till the last drop of blood"* with him, to enact violence against him and derive pleasure from it. (But maybe that part is different in English.)

Of course, we can claim it's just projection, but if Zenos is supposed to be the creators' way of winking at us re: how we/some of us want to fight and are always up for the next challenge, who is to say it's not also a story-telling device by the writers to project this mirror role onto your WoL.
And as described above, the visual, auditive and narrative staging of the fight seem more or less in line with that satisfaction of fighting him (because again, the whole set-up feels very aesthetically satisfying).
(Also, even if we don't believe it, Zenos believes it, hence he still gets what he wants: his battle that we want as much as he himself, in his eyes.)

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For my WoL, I do love fighting. I absolutely have a blast with it. But I don't like Zenos.
My personal mirror, that I would burn to fight, even if they are my nemesis, would be someone whose battle philosophy I ultimately share. Someone that makes me say "we are so different but there is something that connects us".

But to me Zenos is such a horrible/cruel and irritating person that even as someone who enjoys battle I have absolutely no interest in engaging with him. As in, nothing in him ignites a passion in me to fight him because in terms of battle and spirit he'd give me what I seek. His battle philosophy is diametrical to mine and "insults" (on an RPG level) my WoL's view on and appreciation of it.
He is not my WoL's mirror or my personal nemesis, he's not my "personal business". He is the type of person I would lock away for genocidal crimes but who I, automatically, don't even bother with on an emotional level because there is nothing there that I naturally connect with.

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(Sorry, I know I'm voicing my dislike from him very strongly here. xD I don't judge or think negatively of people who do see him as their mirror or who like him. I just don't want to fight him, at least not on these terms, haha.)

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* This is a phrase he repeats several times in German. I don't know if the same applies to the English localisation, though.

This was a much easier question to answer in Heavensward. I was fighting for home, and country, and friends (who became family), etc. ARR, I felt like a useful idiot. SB, I felt like a war mascot. ShB is complicated. EW, I went back to being a useful idiot. :( I guess you could say I came full circle, but that's not a good thing in that regard.

My gaming personality is pure mercenary, would that I could actually play my WoL in that manner. I would not have joined the Scions in ARR if I'd been given a choice, so that question in EW was awkward. I generally do not care about the wars people are in, or their primal problems, or fighting increasingly challenging foes. (Honestly, the #1 downside of FFXIV for me are the trials. I absolutely hate them and I grumble every single time one is required.)

I am all about character interactions. It's why HW is still my #1 favorite expansion. I don't want to be their protector though, just their comrade. It's probably why I favored my time with Emet and Hythlodaeus more than the Scions. The Scions are always wanting me to do something. Fight this thing, save these people, etc. I often wonder if we'd be friends if I wasn't always doing something for them. I figure not. The irony is, Zenos would make a better WoL than I do. He may have no interest in the diplomacy side, but I'd think he'd enjoy the combat part.

Anyway, I just want to travel with friends and have adventures. Listening to Hythlodaeus talk about Azem made me think they have a lot more fun than my WoL ever has.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

The Scions are always wanting me to do something. Fight this thing, save these people, etc. I often wonder if we'd be friends if I wasn't always doing something for them. I figure not.

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I would say some Scions really do see you as friends. To me the interactions with Urianger (ShB&EW), Estinien and Alisaie (and even Alphinaud, even though I'm not a huge Alphinaud stan) seem very genuine.
The trust Urianger shows you on the moon when he is so open with his emotions didn't feel like something he'd share with you if he just saw you as a) his glorified errand runner or b) an unattainable hero/ine.
And Alisaie, while repeatedly stressing she feels inspired by you, also often expresses her vulnerability in your presence - or she teases/jokingly threatens you which feels a lot like friends' banter (you can see this a) when you wake her and G'raha up from their book reading session in EW and b) when you pick her dialogue during the "somebody knocks on your inn room's door" scene).
Estinien seems like the person who reveres you the least and sticks with you because he actually likes and respects you. He never butters you up, he's often very blunt, open and pragmatic. (His dialogue during said inn room scene is quite nice, actually.)
Because of his very straigt-forward nature he feels like the person whose friendship I'd doubt the least.

I want to include Y'shtola on that list just because I like her, lol. Because of her friendship with Lyse (who is so different from Y'shtola) I want to believe she is an approachable person and not just a cold and calculating scholar. G'raha I'm torn because I think the game really tries to hammer the point home that he wants to be your actual friend (after all travelling and adventures is exactly the kind of thing he wants to do with you) but I can see how his continuous adoration might be off-putting or seem contrived (although I do like G'raha personally).


It's possible they wouldn't be your friend if you weren't the WoL simply because your paths wouldn't cross regularly enough to build a friendship but I think many of the scions show how they care about and befriend others even if they don't benefit from them (esp. Alphinaud - I have to give him that).


(On an unrelated note, I would have loved to spend more time with pre-madman Emet, Venat and Hythlodaeus, though. Esp. Hythlodaeus seems like the person who I'd love to be friends with.)

RP or not, there aren't really any optional story bosses that you can simply talk your way out of fighting. Ahem, Titan, can we stop for a moment and debate the merits of punching overdwellers? No? Okay, I'm going to walk away from this fight now while you cool off and think about what you've done. Wait, why is the story not progressing?

If you think that Zenos is dangerous and must be stopped in the name of Lawful Good, then you can pick 2. If you hate him for stealing your stack of 999 Legendary Hovernyan medallions while you were indisposed in Garlemald (he did, check your retainers), you can pick 3. If you have a sense of humor, you can pick 1. There's truly something for everyone.

It certainly seems like the game is pushing that, to some degree, the WOL does canonically like pushing themselves in fights like that.

The difference however, is that this isn't ALL that defines the WOL. It is Zenos' singular obsession and character trait. It is all that he is at the end of the day. But not the WOL.

My interpretation of the end is that it's the WOL that wishes for the teleporter to return to them, to take them back to their friends and life. Because regardless of whether Zenos is correct about them enjoying pushing themselves to their limit, unlike Zenos the WOL has more to live for, more to their life than JUST fighting. The WOL isn't really Zenos' mirror, they just happen to share one character trait, and because that's all Zenos has, he overly projects onto the WOL. Zenos, bereft of any other purpose in life, dies there, while the WOL chooses to go on living.

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Originally Posted by Loggos

Estinien seems like the person who reveres you the least and sticks with you because he actually likes and respects you. He never butters you up, he's often very blunt, open and pragmatic. (His dialogue during said inn room scene is quite nice, actually.)
Because of his very straigt-forward nature he feels like the person whose friendship I'd doubt the least.

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As a former DRG main, there's history with Estinien before HW too. I have always viewed him as a brother in arms (and his inn visit was the best followed by G'raha). The end of SB was especially meaningful for me since he saved me, brought me back to Ishgard (home), and then between Aymeric and Lord Edmont visiting I thought, this is just the best thing ever.

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G'raha I'm torn because I think the game really tries to hammer the point home that he wants to be your actual friend (after all travelling and adventures is exactly the kind of thing he wants to do with you) but I can see how his continuous adoration might be off-putting or seem contrived (although I do like G'raha personally).

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I love G'raha to bits, but a large part of his adoration is because of being the WoL and having done the deeds I have. Still, he did seem to like me when I was a relative nobody during the Crystal Tower series, so who knows?

My blanket statement was unfair to a few characters. Now that I think about it, Alisaie is a BFF through shared experiences and I always thought if she'd known what absorbing the Lightwardens in ShB was doing she would've put a stop to it. Can't say the same for Urianger or Y'shtola. >_> Having started in Ul'dah, there's also a history with Thancred and he was a true friend throughout HW.

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(On an unrelated note, I would have loved to spend more time with pre-madman Emet, Venat and Hythlodaeus, though. Esp. Hythlodaeus seems like the person who I'd love to be friends with.)

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I had no expectations that we'd have a whole zone of Emet and Hythlodaeus. I should be grateful, but instead I want more. :P

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

As a former DRG main, there's history with Estinien before HW too. I have always viewed him as a brother in arms (and his inn visit was the best followed by G'raha). The end of SB was especially meaningful for me since he saved me, brought me back to Ishgard (home), and then between Aymeric and Lord Edmont visiting I thought, this is just the best thing ever.

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Completely agree on Estinien. :)

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I love G'raha to bits, but a large part of his adoration is because of being the WoL and having done the deeds I have. Still, he did seem to like me when I was a relative nobody during the Crystal Tower series, so who knows?

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Yeah, I totally see what you mean. I want to believe that because he himself always goes to such great lengths to help others (the time travel, helping the first reflection - he feels very strongly not only about you but about all of Crystarium, after all) his adoration stems from him seeing this part of his mirrored in your character. Somebody who does so much to make the world a better place, just like him. He knows he is not "on your level" (I don't really like that they make your character so exceptional either) but he can share this mindset with you. So, maybe he likes you because he believes you two think alike.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Now that I think about it, Alisaie is a BFF through shared experiences and I always thought if she'd known what absorbing the Lightwardens in ShB was doing she would've put a stop to it.

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I agree. She also wanted the best for you and to stand by your side at the end of EW, once when she disagreed with Alphinaud in the abandoned city and once when you saved them with the teleporter.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I had no expectations that we'd have a whole zone of Emet and Hythlodaeus. I should be grateful, but instead I want more. :P

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100% same. xDD

My WoL just likes to travel, see new places, meet new people and help them. She does not need to battle to feel happy, honestly a lot of the time she enjoy gathering and crafting.
So for my WoL the answer would have been to turn around and teleport out, leaving Zenos there forever alone. (And after all we are the reborn Azem, the traveler, but one cant travel if they are death because of one single fight)

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Originally Posted by Lyth

RP or not, there aren't really any optional story bosses that you can simply talk your way out of fighting. Ahem, Titan, can we stop for a moment and debate the merits of punching overdwellers? No? Okay, I'm going to walk away from this fight now while you cool off and think about what you've done. Wait, why is the story not progressing?

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The 1.0 story instances gave you the option of talking your way out of combat with the "parley" minigame, for players advancing the story as a crafter or gatherer. Yes, this included Ifrit's tempered thralls.

(I understand that you can't talk your way out of trials and dungeons that you play with other people but Zenos is a solo fight so I think it would be a little different if you skipped that one. Also, it concludes his story, so - assuming he stays/dies at the edge of space for good - you wouldn't have to worry about writing alternative storylines depending on the player choice.
Anyway, as said above, some people's gripe is that the alternative dialogue options don't even feel like "cosmetic" choices to RP your own motivation because they are more or less nullified by the rather unambiguous narrative direction of the fight.)

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Originally Posted by Lyth

RP or not, there aren't really any optional story bosses that you can simply talk your way out of fighting. Ahem, Titan, can we stop for a moment and debate the merits of punching overdwellers? No? Okay, I'm going to walk away from this fight now while you cool off and think about what you've done. Wait, why is the story not progressing?

If you think that Zenos is dangerous and must be stopped in the name of Lawful Good, then you can pick 2. If you hate him for stealing your stack of 999 Legendary Hovernyan medallions while you were indisposed in Garlemald (he did, check your retainers), you can pick 3. If you have a sense of humor, you can pick 1. There's truly something for everyone.

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I, personally, did see the fact of; you need to fight in order to progress. Nothing would have stopped the Zenos fight, because by and large he was still a huge threat that was able to take from the Mothercrystal just to track you down at the edge of the universe, and make quick work of repelling a foe everyone was effortlessly vanquished by. But that doesn't mean your WoL needs to be contained to the options presented- which I still don't like. Options 2 and 3 still by and large feel like the same rehash of the 1st option, but as I mentioned in my original post I understand we can't have all the options in the world, that would be too much. But, and I've repeated this point like a million times sorry, that doesn't mean we as players have to adhere to them.

The WoL will have to fight, no matter what. Because at the end of the day, it's you that stands at the precipice between certain life or death. If you don't fight, people will die. If you fight, people may yet live to see another day. In the end, when imploring the roleplay part of roleplaying game, your character will have to find some reason to fight and continue on. In this thread alone we've seen multiple replies to this topic, and even more as more people find this thread to comment on it. (Which has been a blast reading everyone's replies!)

In the end I think my point is; this topic was not about "man I wish they would put a varied option in for me so I don't have to fight!" And more to ask people and celebrate their opinions. We're the Warrior of Light, but we're also what Venat as Hydaelyn's themes of what she loved encompass; varied people all with our own ideals and thoughts.

Endwalker
Much like your other friends, Zenos also loves it when a plan comes together.
'With the chat mode in Say, enter "my friend" to respond to Zenos' request for satisfaction.'

I mean, sure, there are other ways of doing it that offer more RP options. But like most of these Zenos threads, the subtext is about the player disagreeing with the narrative direction moreso than it is about player choice, which is always a fiction in games like this. Which is perfectly fine. Shadowbringers is the well written, cohesive novel. Endwalker is the guilty fanfiction that you read secretly afterwards and love every minute of. I'm glad that it doesn't take itself seriously.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I mean, sure, there are other ways of doing it that offer more RP options. But like most of these Zenos threads, the subtext is about the player disagreeing with the narrative direction moreso than it is about player choice,

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I apologise if this comes off the wrong way, but this isn't a Zenos thread. As mentioned before, I want to celebrate other players and their personal choices that couldn't be added due to game limitations or otherwise. The WoL has to fight, that's unavoidable, nothing is going to stop that from happening because that's just how the World of Final Fantasy (not the game) works. But we both agree that the outcome we would all like (passive storytelling) can't happen,

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Originally Posted by Lyth

which is always a fiction in games like this. Which is perfectly fine.

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And as a small off-topic conversation;

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Shadowbringers is the well written, cohesive novel. Endwalker is the guilty fanfiction that you read secretly afterwards and love every minute of. I'm glad that it doesn't take itself seriously.

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I find that Endwalker is less so a guilty fanfiction and more the grand finale of the story we love. Which is why it's just as important to celebrate player's choice, at least outside of the game while still respecting the choices the writers have made.

I interpreted Option 2 (which I picked) less as a refusal to acknowledge Zenos is right, and more of an apathy towards his opinion on us. "Believe what you will, it doesn't change the fact you aren't walking out of here."

In my eyes the PC has never been all about seeking battles that push them to their limits; rather their defining trait is a lust for adventure, going to new places, meeting new people. In the course of so doing fighting is often necessary, but they don't fight for its own sake. Even so, given he was complicit starting the apocalypse for no other reason than satiating his battle lust Zenos was one of those "too dangerous to be left alive" types.

... even if I do much like the idea of him being an wayward ally, if he'd just tone down the intensity of the violence from duels to the death to sparring matches.

Since I forgot to reply to the topic itself, I went with option 1, because I didn't particularly feel either of the others. Don't get me wrong, he was bad and we stopped him, but that never needed to include killing him as well, considering he can't exactly die anyway last I checked.

...But, knowing it would likely be the last time, I gave him what he wanted. Got a killer screencap out of it, too, so I'd say we're even. (Catboy /smirk is the best expression.)

I took option two the same way thar Cilia did. In a I don't care what you think why I fight type of way. Thus why I chose it. I'd of preferred to not have to of fought him. Especially after the first time you beat him. For me the WoL only fights when needed and is one who like seemingly all other Azem just enjoys roaming around and helping others even if it gets tiresome from time to time. I'd probably would have been fine with him if he was more like Sadu. In that sure he loves to fight and tossing himself at harder opponents, but also understands that the thrill of battle isn't the end all be all.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Since I forgot to reply to the topic itself, I went with option 1, because I didn't particularly feel either of the others. Don't get me wrong, he was bad and we stopped him, but that never needed to include killing him as well, considering he can't exactly die anyway last I checked.

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To be honest I didn't really care for any of the options; it felt very much like a forced battle, one I wouldn't have engaged in. If there were a "Thanks for helping to save the world, but piss off because if I ever hear you're up to no good again I will find you and I will kill you." and walk away option, that's what I'd take.

Unfortunately this is a linear game, so you have to fight and kill him for quest completion.

EDIT
Without a body to possess Zenos' soul would no longer have a vessel, and while the Echo can be used to cheat death it's not as if Echo users literally cannot die - the Ancients could choose to die despite being immortal (or at least ageless) and lots did in the Final Days as well.

Yeah, true. I'm just rationalizing. If any one person could travel to the edge of despair and discover his joie de vivre, though, I would have wanted it to be Zenos. Oh, well. We didn't get to hear his last words, but I hope he was happy at the end.