Anyone else done...

Spoilers



with the Garleans and their bull? I swear these people make me want to pull my own hair out. I get it, it's hard to trust your enemy, but they act as if their hands are clean in this conflict. I've lost count of how many times I've said to myself, "pot meet kettle" while talking to these people. Am I missing something? Is there a crucial plot point I'm forgetting that clearly paints us as the bad guys? These people are more prideful and arrogant than the Elezen. Mind you, I've only gone so far as meeting the commander of the 1st legion.

Oh yes, it was one of those rare instances when I met said commander, I -reeeally- wished the devs had given our characters a bit darker agency because honestly the entire time I was just thinking "This man is psychotically evil and literally condeming his own people to death for the sake of national pride, if the Scions were truly good they would dispatch him themselves there and then." I really wanted my WoL to just attack him outright.

Well look at their history, the magic users chased them into Ilsabard region in the first place until the invention of Magitek. The situation + obvious smear campaign of the savage people, they see it like its happening all over again.

When it comes to the Garleans rejecting our help I always think about the IRL issue with Okinawa (which would be very real to Japan.)

When Japan was taking Okinawa, history class told us (and my Japanese teacher from Japan in Uni confirmed this when I asked) that Japan soldiers would tell the Okinawans that if they didn't join them or commit suicide, the Americans would kidnap and rape them. Many ended their lives from that fear.

So yes, I can completely see why the Garleans would believe we're evil and not there to help them.

(Note I don't mean the one-off soldier that DID do that, because there was probably some truth to the statement like any. But they were saying ALL the Americans would, that none could be trusted.)

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Originally Posted by leoxastaroth

Oh yes, it was one of those rare instances when I met said commander, I -reeeally- wished the devs had given our characters a bit darker agency because honestly the entire time I was just thinking "This man is psychotically evil and literally condeming his own people to death for the sake of national pride, if the Scions were truly good they would dispatch him themselves there and then." I really wanted my WoL to just attack him outright.

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Ah yes, murdering their leader after coming to him with the pretenses of diplomacy -- that would surely sway the Garlean people to your side. After all, the average Garlean trusts you implicitly! Just think back... oh, two quests ago when three starving men shanked Alphinaud behind the house so a defenseless girl could take her crippling ill little sister and flee to the monster-infested ice fields because they'd MUCH rather take their chances there than with you, and that's after you've all already helped them.

To put it another way: three men went on an agreed suicide mission to act as a short-term distraction so two people could almost certainly die to wolves and monsters in the freezing cold -- because they are 100% absolutely positively sure you'll do far worse to them.

The Garlean history is one of oppression, misery, and overall getting their butts kicked to the frozen wastes by the other, magic-using races. This breeds resentment. Resentment turns into nationalism. Then, when given the means to not just fight back against their oppressors, but to conquer them in turn... all in the name of peace, mind you. The savages can not be trusted, and the only way to ensure peace with these monsters is to subjugate them, or exterminate them.

Is it right? No, of course not. But this is what generations of Garlean people believe, and it's all they know. To them, these magic-wielding foreigners are just trying to subjugate them, to destroy their national identity and who they are at their core. This is, of course, because that's how they operate. If the Garleans encountered a severely weakened enemy city, they might buy their way in with promises of aid, only to take everything from them when the opportunity was right. Look at Ala Mhigo. The nation just finished a devastating civil war, and in swoops Gaius and the fleet to seize control right after. (Convenient timing, isn't that?)

Oh, and everyone's favorite totally-not-a-bad-guy Emet-Selch is the one who put all of this into motion. Don't forget that.

Edit - Oh, and how could I forget the girl there who recognizes you by face. She saw you AOEing down dozens of her friends like they were nothing in Castrum and Praetorium. 8 Eorzeans butchered their way through over a hundred people and warmachines and barely even stopped moving. Then, for good measure, you blew the place to hell before most people had a chance to evacuate. (The only people who could possibly have seen it was the Ascian and Ultima Weapon that blew the place up would have been caught the blast.)

Me in my boujie glam being called a “savage” was irking me lol.

Then perhaps I've become too jaded. In the world we live in toady, I try my best to not take what others say at face value. It's not particularly difficult; it's just a matter of questioning everything you see or hear, which I find to be rather enjoyable. I learned years ago that there are few things in this world that are black and white. As such, to see these people be so pigheaded is infuriating. Although, that explanation holds water for the civilians, but not for the soldiers.

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Originally Posted by Adonan

with the Garleans and their bull? I swear these people make me want to pull my own hair out. I get it, it's hard to trust your enemy, but they act as if their hands are clean in this conflict. I've lost count of how many times I've said to myself, "pot meet kettle" while talking to these people. Am I missing something? Is there a crucial plot point I'm forgetting that clearly paints us as the bad guys? These people are more prideful and arrogant than the Elezen. Mind you, I've only gone so far as meeting the commander of the 1st legion.

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Decades of propaganda.

They've been lead to believe that everyone else are savages because they cling to primitive technology. The garleans rose above their racial limitations with technology so this explains their arrogance. Though this was with the aid of the ascians but they don't know that.

They're likely to be also terrified of all the other races. Imagine you're part of one sentient race among many others in the world...and your race is the only one that cannot use magic. Everyone else has the potential to do crazy stuff make fireballs fly out of their hands and it's not even rare for them to be able to do so. Wouldn't you be frightened? Furthermore the garleans were driven out of their ancestral land by magic users, which is the root of their fear and hate. And I can hardly blame them for feeling that way.

But I don't get it. How can such hate last for generations? Look at us, and how much we've changed of the last century alone. It's always been the younger generation that calls into question what their parents have taught them. How could Garlemald remain so culturally stagnant for so long?

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Originally Posted by Adonan

Although, that explanation holds water for the civilians, but not for the soldiers.

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We've killed them nonstop for years. The heroes they revere we have taken down. We are the boogie man to them. The soldiers have a pretty valid reason to be scared and not trust us.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Ah yes, murdering their leader after coming to him with the pretenses of diplomacy

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I mean, you'd have to admit that'd make a savage impression ;D

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Originally Posted by Adonan

But I don't get it. How can such hate last for generations? Look at us, and how much we've changed of the last century alone. It's always been the younger generation that calls into question what their parents have taught them. How could Garlemald remain so culturally stagnant for so long?

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If you want a real world example look over at the Asian region. A lot of people in China and Korea still hold a grudge against Japan. Its an easily taught sentiment. Even if you look in the Americas, hate can be easily transferred from parents to child. Its a nasty and vicious cycle. All it takes is someone to believe, not even alot just a little bit to spawn that seed of doubt, that our life could be better if it wasn't for x group of people or x group of people are keeping us down and the cycle continues anew.

Not when they've done the same thing to us. Refer to my, "pot meet kettle" comment. Although I will say this, we have an advantage (in the real world) that they don't. We have social media. Although it's far from what it once was, or was meant to be, social media has allowed the myriad of cultures across this rock to better understand one another.

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Originally Posted by Thaciscokidd

If you want a real world example look over at the Asian region. A lot of people in China and Korea still hold a grudge against Japan. Its an easily taught sentiment. Even if you look in the Americas, hate can be easily transferred from parents to child. Its a nasty and vicious cycle. All it takes is someone to believe, not even alot just a little bit to spawn that seed of doubt, that our life could be better if it wasn't for x group of people or x group of people are keeping us down and the cycle continues anew.

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Come to think of it, we have that in America. I'm not gonna open a can of worms on this one, but there's a lot of different groups that say, "our life could be better if it wasn't for x group of people". I still can't understand it. I feel like we're delving into the human psyche a little bit here, or the sentient/intelligent psyche.

But thats what it is. The conquered became conquerors and then became conquered once again. What happens next is going to either cement feelings for the savage races or go to show the next generation that what they were told doesn't line up to how the magic blessed races really are.

Its honestly why I'm generally excited about the rebuilding of Garlemald, or even if they are allowed to do it, story . This is were your "pot calling kettle" comments comes into play to me at least, do we sit back and let the people who were wronged or oppressed come in and get what they are owed or do we continue to defend the ailing Garleans as a people who way of life was utterly destroyed by the events that have passed.

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Originally Posted by Adonan

Not when they've done the same thing to us. Refer to my, "pot meet kettle" comment. Although I will say this, we have an advantage (in the real world) that they don't. We have social media. Although it's far from what it once was, or was meant to be, social media has allowed the myriad of cultures across this rock to better understand one another.

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You clearly misunderstand something. How many native Garleans have you seen integrate themselves with other cultures? A handful at best and most were part of their military and defected. The rest were on that theatre ship in Kugane (and I'm not even sure if they are Garlean by birth or by adoption of culture). Aside from this tiny amount we haven't met a single Garlean who wasn't in their military and directly fighting against us.

This means that the vast majority of Garlean citizens are cut off from the rest of the world. And they're the only race that uses modern technology like radios for entertainment. Both together means it would be very easy for Garlean authority to tell its citizens what to think without them even realising they're being fed propaganda. There are no other nations on the same radio stations to give them another point of view. And they already have a tragic history of being driven out of their ancestral lands by magic users, which was the seed of their fear and hate of other races.

Another thing to consider was the Garlean people were not unhappy. They lead very comfortable lives so they were not driven to go elsewhere to find happiness and safety. This along with the propaganda about other races lead them to believe they could only live freely in Garlean territory that wasn't mostly populated by "the savages". In short they lived in blissful ignorance until EW. Their world was turned upside-down too fast for them to grasp what was going on, and when they're weak and vulnerable what happens? The savages come with their magic and their weapons. I don't know why anyone is shocked that they were frightened.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

You clearly misunderstand something. How many native Garleans have you seen integrate themselves with other cultures? A handful at best and most were part of their military and defected. The rest were on that theatre ship in Kugane (and I'm not even sure if they are Garlean by birth or by adoption of culture). Aside from this tiny amount we haven't met a single Garlean who wasn't in their military and directly fighting against us.

This means that the vast majority of Garlean citizens are cut off from the rest of the world. And they're the only race that uses modern technology like radios for entertainment. Both together means it would be very easy for Garlean authority to tell its citizens what to think without them even realising they're being fed propaganda. There are no other nations on the same radio stations to give them another point of view. And they already have a tragic history of being driven out of their ancestral lands by magic users, which was the seed of their fear and hate of other races.

Another thing to consider was the Garlean people were not unhappy. They lead very comfortable lives so they were not driven to go elsewhere to find happiness and safety. This along with the propaganda about other races lead them to believe they could only live freely in Garlean territory that wasn't mostly populated by "the savages". In short they lived in blissful ignorance until EW. Their world was turned upside-down too fast for them to grasp what was going on, and when they're weak and vulnerable what happens? The savages come with their magic and their weapons. I don't know why anyone is shocked that they were frightened.

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That's what I was saying. They don't have the advantage of social media, or more broadly the internet. I must say, you do make a fair point at the end. I'm not sure how many of us would be able to handle something like this happening to our cushy lives.

I would rather have us invade and colonize Garlemald. Give them a taste of their own medicine.

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Originally Posted by Adonan

But I don't get it. How can such hate last for generations? Look at us, and how much we've changed of the last century alone. It's always been the younger generation that calls into question what their parents have taught them. How could Garlemald remain so culturally stagnant for so long?

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How could russians take over crimea just like that? Why ukrainians dislike russians 7 years later? Why civil uprising in rus heavy districts in ua still goes and inflames eastern borders?
Why cant we just ignore everything and just belive russian narrative that "green people" want to save and help native russian population in ua is true?

I dont know. Maybe normal people dont really trust armed forces who try to obliterate their chain of command and culture.

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Originally Posted by leoxastaroth

Oh yes, it was one of those rare instances when I met said commander, I -reeeally- wished the devs had given our characters a bit darker agency because honestly the entire time I was just thinking "This man is psychotically evil and literally condeming his own people to death for the sake of national pride, if the Scions were truly good they would dispatch him themselves there and then." I really wanted my WoL to just attack him outright.

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Problem is this part of the story was ungodly badly made. It's a war but we don't kill no one? What fucking naive B's is this.

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Originally Posted by Naridar

I would rather have us invade and colonize Garlemald. Give them a taste of their own medicine.

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Did you miss the part where it is highlighted that the only reason they became an Empire is out of necessity because they were repeatedly invaded, conquered and almost wiped out? That even after being forced out of fertile territory and into the frozen wasteland, they were still forced to fight for every last little scrap?

The Reaper quests go deeper into their origins, though Garlemald as a zone did not reveal anything that wasn't already outlined in the lore book and side quests. It simply brought it to the forefront.