*Spoilers* Major Hydaelyn/Timeline question

When we finally meet hydaelyn in the aetheric sea and call her Venat her response is:

"I see.... Thou didst journey unto Elpis"
"And now, the rivers of time converge"

That response does not imply that she remembers you at all, it implies that she understands that you time traveled back in Elpis like she hinted you should via the elpis flower.

Yet why would she give us such a response? If she remembered us from back then and we are on the same timeline the most logical response would be one that clearly implies that she remembers us and what we experienced back then together.

Argos clearly remembers us on the moon, so did Hythlodeus' soul yet why does hydaelyn not remember us specifically in the aethiric sea?

She does remember a promise she made to us so long ago(assuming she refers to the time back in the ancient past) before we time traveled, it sounds weird, as if she remembers us, then we time travel and then hydaelin's memory is not the same after we finish our latest time travel adventure.


Am i missing something? Could this be a writing mistake or possibly one of those time travel consequences such as multiple timelines aka rivers of time converging.

I took from it that the original timeline and the altered Elpis one were so similar as to almost overlap, and that at the point of that conversation they truly merge back together.

its basically happening after a bootstrap paradox loop. she does remember us but she has to wait till the loops complete and we remember her.

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Originally Posted by sidurgu-12

its basically happening after a bootstrap paradox loop. she does remember us but she has to wait till the loops complete and we remember her.

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At the start where she references that promise so long ago, yes it makes sense.

The thing is when we meet her in the aetheric sea and even call her Venat, it is clear we have gone through that and remember everything, yet why not say something that implies she remembers us and our adventure.

I am not expecting her to give details, but what she said gives no hint that she remembers us, only that she understands what we did and how the rivers of time work, which is not something you would say to someone who says "Oh hey, we met 9999999 years ago in the past"

I just run with the assumption that FFXIV time travel has always worked on Bill and Ted rules. Which is to say, if someone time travels into the past, then they have always time travelled into the past; the WoL always went back in time to Elpis for those events, there is no timeline where they did not.

It's how Alexander's time travel mechanics worked, and that was the most rigorous exploration of them.

She didn't necessarily know the exact moment that we journeyed back to the past. Any time "about 12,000 years after we met in Elpis" is probably as specific as she knew, up until we went to the moon. Then it was "some time after you went to the moon", so when we meet her in the present she finds out that our departure to and return from the past has happened by then.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I just run with the assumption that FFXIV time travel has always worked on Bill and Ted rules. Which is to say, if someone time travels into the past, then they have always time travelled into the past; the WoL always went back in time to Elpis for those events, there is no timeline where they did not.

It's how Alexander's time travel mechanics worked, and that was the most rigorous exploration of them.

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That’s how FFXIV time travel worked until ShB happened and now we have two separate timelines co-existing.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I just run with the assumption that FFXIV time travel has always worked on Bill and Ted rules. Which is to say, if someone time travels into the past, then they have always time travelled into the past; the WoL always went back in time to Elpis for those events, there is no timeline where they did not.

It's how Alexander's time travel mechanics worked, and that was the most rigorous exploration of them.

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As of right now, there are both bootstrap paradoxes and multiple timelines in the canon multiverse. The Midgardsormr guardian timeline that G'raha comes from still exists, and is trucking along under his guidance in the 8th era.

It's because 4 versions of this game weren't exactly tied together until Shadowbringers. So now they have to go back and make it work.

1.0, 2.0, 3.0 and 4.0

That said it was still well done overall but does leave you with head scratchers in some aspects of it.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

That’s how FFXIV time travel worked until ShB happened and now we have two separate timelines co-existing.

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Which even then makes sense. Every time we've gone back returned through time it has been a stable time loop and had to happen. The alternate timeline? It was a one way trip, G'raha was never going back, so the normal rules we saw to date did not apply for that one.

After the fight with Hydaelyn we are given the dialogue option to say “We will move forward, Venat.” At which point, she cries. I don’t know if she has the exact same reaction if you choose “Thank you, Hydaelyn.” But I took it as she remembered us from Elpis.

Also, she mentions at one point that their timelines - past and present - are in conjunction.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Which even then makes sense. Every time we've gone back returned through time it has been a stable time loop and had to happen. The alternate timeline? It was a one way trip, G'raha was never going back, so the normal rules we saw to date did not apply for that one.

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Well, is time moving forward in our portal to Elpis - considering we can go back there? Emet's magic has allowed us to keep a form but what IS going on time wise?

The point of highlighting Argos’ feelings on the moon was to explicitly show we had passed the test in Elpis, thus were we there. This is pretty explicit.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

The point of highlighting Argos’ feelings on the moon was to explicitly show we had passed the test in Elpis, thus were we there. This is pretty explicit.

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I am kinda mixed on that. As since dogs are usually a "6th sense" kind of wonder. What I mean is we are the soul of Azem, and while I am not expecting a magical doggo to read souls as well - we don't know for sure if Argos had also seen Azem, or other plausible reasons Argos was not as wary, especially since he let the Scions ride him without such fuss.

That said, I do absolutely believe writing wise - that was intended for us to deduce.

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Originally Posted by Lium

After the fight with Hydaelyn we are given the dialogue option to say “We will move forward, Venat.” At which point, she cries. I don’t know if she has the exact same reaction if you choose “Thank you, Hydaelyn.” But I took it as she remembered us from Elpis.

Also, she mentions at one point that their timelines - past and present - are in conjunction.

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I actually took that timeline comment not to mean 'time travel happened and has resolved things', but more 'both your society and mine were facing the same challenges, and we can learn from each other'.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

I am kinda mixed on that. As since dogs are usually a "6th sense" kind of wonder. What I mean is we are the soul of Azem, and while I am not expecting a magical doggo to read souls as well - we don't know for sure if Argos had also seen Azem, or other plausible reasons Argos was not as wary, especially since he let the Scions ride him without such fuss.

That said, I do absolutely believe writing wise - that was intended for us to deduce.

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And Elpis actually proves to us this isn't the case, because when we first meet him then, Argos is leery of us and we need to gain his trust before he'll let us ride him. So he's trusting of us on Mare Lamentorum because he remembers trusting us in Elpis.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

And Elpis actually proves to us this isn't the case, because when we first meet him then, Argos is leery of us and we need to gain his trust before he'll let us ride him. So he's trusting of us on Mare Lamentorum because he remembers trusting us in Elpis.

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Yes, when WE first meet him and we don't know IF/WHEN Argos met Azem. That's my point. Correlation is not causation still.


As you skip over the part of trusting of the Scions too. There was no hesitation like he did with us in Elpis and this is Venat's familiar. So what sense does it make?

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Yes, when WE first meet him and we don't know IF/WHEN Argos met Azem. That's my point. Correlation is not causation still.


As you skip over the part of trusting of the Scions too. There was no hesitation like he did with us in Elpis and this is Venat's familiar. So what sense does it make?

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Since Venat mentioned she was already retired, Argos already met Azem at that point, since that meant she had to hand over the seat and, like us, probably fought him in 1v1 combat to determine whether or not he was worthy of the seat. In the case of Argos allowing Thancred, Urianger, and Y'shtola on, that could simply be because of Argos trusting in the WoL, feeling they wouldn't have taken the others with them if the WoL didn't trust them.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Since Venat mentioned she was already retired, Argos already met Azem at that point, since that meant she had to hand over the seat and, like us, probably fought him in 1v1 combat to determine whether or not he was worthy of the seat. In the case of Argos allowing Thancred, Urianger, and Y'shtola on, that could simply be because of Argos trusting in the WoL, feeling they wouldn't have taken the others with them if the WoL didn't trust them.

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Well the 1v1 part did happen as Venat said before she passed on the seat she literally put Azem through a 1v1 combat trial to see if he/she will be ready for the seat of Azem.

Though this does bring in what the role of Azem is being a person willing to take direct action to resolve issues. Venat herself was basically like our WoL when it comes to dealing with issues which lead her to finding Azem and choosing him/her due how Azem tend to act the same way she does despite his/her reasons.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Since Venat mentioned she was already retired, Argos already met Azem at that point, since that meant she had to hand over the seat and, like us, probably fought him in 1v1 combat to determine whether or not he was worthy of the seat. In the case of Argos allowing Thancred, Urianger, and Y'shtola on, that could simply be because of Argos trusting in the WoL, feeling they wouldn't have taken the others with them if the WoL didn't trust them.

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Venat trusted WoL so Argos should have trusted us.

Her retirement doesn't indicate for sure Argos met Azem it just implies it was possible.

Again Correlation not Causation.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Venat trusted WoL so Argos should have trusted us.

Her retirement doesn't indicate for sure Argos met Azem it just implies it was possible.

Again Correlation not Causation.

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She outright mentions that Argos won't trust us unless we beat her in a 1v1. Yet she already had a 1v1 with Azem to pass on the Seat. Thus Argos should have already trusted us, but it didn't. Meaning there's no way in hell present Argos could have trusted us unless we actually did that 1v1 back in Elpis in the past.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

She outright mentions that Argos won't trust us unless we beat her in a 1v1. Yet she already had a 1v1 with Azem to pass on the Seat. Thus Argos should have already trusted us, but it didn't. Meaning there's no way in hell present Argos could have trusted us unless we actually did that 1v1 back in Elpis in the past.

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Okay then, trusted us as an individual. Because she OWNS the familiar and for whatever reason Argos needs to see a 1v1 with us.

So it stands to reason EVEN IF SHE was the creator it means that dog should be seeing 1v1 with others

Other strangers ie the Scions.

I'm sorry but plot holes are plot holes.

Maybe it just doesn't care about the Scions enough to test them, they're not reincarnated ancients and so as far as our adorable doggy familiar is concerned, not real people.

It probably just thinks they're your familiars, like it is to Venat.

I dont think there is a point arguing over Argos, I think it was pretty explicit that he remembers us from back then in elpis.

The problem here is hydaelyn's behavior specifically in the Aethiric sea, it is as if something happened between the time we started time travelining and after that somehow made Hydaelyn forget us and the details of the past. Because before we time traveled Hydaelyn remembered a promise she made so long ago.

So my hypothesis would be that something done during our latest time travel must have changed something. (Latest because if it is a loop, what if the latest loop is broken by some different action and now we are on a separate timeline which screwed with Hydaelyn's memories?)

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Originally Posted by Zoliru

I dont think there is a point arguing over Argos, I think it was pretty explicit that he remembers us from back then in elpis.

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The importance of Argos in the whole scheme of things, isn't extremely important. HOWEVER. My point was that basically the story basically set up "rules" per say then just in a weird way breaks them. Is it super important, of course not but it does break you out of it when a scenario is set up and than forgets or doesn't account for how those guideline works - and leaves the person to make their own inferences. I just felt this was another example with some of the problematic story telling that does follow similar routes.

I guess the best way to explain why it irks me is the same reason I remember how many people were annoyed with Chief O'Brien's Pips kept changing - since they established in the Star Trek universe a rank. Sure people can forgive the constant issues with the Space Time Continuum ...but man what's with them not being able to keep track of how many Pips Chief O'Brien should have?

AGAIN, because people seem to take criticism of presentation as "I HATE THIS STORY" which isn't the case. I like the story, I just have qualms with how certain things were written and pacing issues as well.

Considering that Elidibus only remembered seeing us in Elpis after we specifically drew his mind back to that time period, I feel Hydaelyn/Venat likely forgot some specifics over the countless millenia as well.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Considering that Elidibus only remembered seeing us in Elpis after we specifically drew his mind back to that time period, I feel Hydaelyn/Venat likely forgot some specifics over the countless millenia as well.

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Well Elidibus only now started to remembering some old memories because he is death. Before that his loss of memories could be explained because he was the heart of Zodiark.

We are Hydealyn champion though. We are the one that set Venat on her path and as she said after the fight, the tales of our adventures gave her the hope to hold on. She also remembered enough to give us the Elpis flower as a hint on what we should do.