I have a bit of a grift with this ability for different reasons.
1) Requires Eukrasian Diagnosis shield to be broken to grant Addersting.
2) Instant Cast AoE on target for 330 potency(same as Dosis III) at Lv 82.
People can probably recognize the issue here - 1 is the most prominent because it requires us to go out of our way to spend 900 MP to break a shield for an AoE Dosis. This is a net loss pre-82 unless 2+, but feels too limited after 82.
One thing I think they should consider is using the Charge system for this ability similar to Phlegma instead of limiting it to just a net MP Loss. We can react to TBs faster than anyone else with Eukrasian Diagnosis, sure; but in raids this ability will not be used outside of weaving or 2+ enemies. Addersting could apply a “Reflect Damage” capability similar to WAR’s Vengeance when applying a shield this way.
While the Charge system is one idea, the other is having Addersgall convert to Addersting on use, while retaining the 700 MP recovery component. Thus, you are getting a refund for using Addersgall outside of the MP Recovery via free MP GCDs.
This would help their MP management as well, as even with Lucid Dreaming Addersgall must be used first to keep from going OoM.
Let’s Talk about Toxikon.
Printable View
-
12-06-2021, 11:13 PMHyperiusUltimaLet’s Talk about Toxikon.
-
12-06-2021, 11:20 PMrewd
Toxicon is just a movement tool and works fine for its purpose. It's not particularly exciting, but it does add a bit of planning.
-
12-06-2021, 11:22 PMSaefinn
Yeah, I think Toxicon does need some adjustments. I love the mechanic and the principle behind it, but it is not efficient unless there is consistent incoming damage.
The great thing is, if they can create more of a benefit to using Toxicon over Dosis they can keep the "I hate healers who don't heal" complainers satisfied (or at least with SGE) because they're giving an incentive to keep people shielded. I am mainly using it on big pulls or when people are taking consist damage where the shield is actually useful...or facetiously telling people to stand in AoEs for me so I have an excuse to use it.
Otherwise, yeah, the main benefit is mobility. -
12-06-2021, 11:54 PMHyoMinPark
Toxicon could be adjusted to at least be DPS neutral versus a total loss—I’d like to have a reason to fish for them in a non-dungeon setting (casting Eukrasian Diagnosis on a tank between trash pulls gives a surplus of procs that are handy to use for movement when mobs are dropping their AOEs). I’m not sure if they will adjust it, since the development team lacks a dedicated healer “main”; and they have continuously struggled with healer complaints for several expansions now.
Perhaps if they made it an oGCD to weave instead—since on single target, Dosis III is your obvious go to over it (and Dyskrasia being the go-to in AOE outside of Phlegma). It being a weaveable ability would give it a bit more of a use outside of pure movement—which is nice. In a scenario where you aren’t moving as much and end up just overcapping on Addersting stacks, an oGCD gives you an outlet to prevent that without sacrificing a Dosis GCD. But perhaps that’s just me thinking about how I dislike overcapping/wasting resources. Granted, such a change would affect the “movement tool” aspect of it. With Pneuma requiring such close range, it can’t be a decent alternative for mobility if one has to travel a further distance from the boss.
I more so just have idle thoughts on it all right now based on playing it through the MSQ. My focus has not been on optimization yet since I’m only level 88. And I don’t have a proper setting for it. I’m sure I’ll have more opinions once I take it into the Extremes, and when Savage drops. -
12-07-2021, 12:08 AMnelothi
Toxicon II is DPS neutral. its 320 potency, as is Dosis III (both level 82 skills), and its got no mana cost and is instant.
So its always worth using your 3rd stack to avoid capping (use it just before you generate what would be a 4th stack, but save stacks for movement if you know its coming)
It does feel weird that the skill requires you to break a Eukrasian Diagnosis shield, but dosnt have a higher potency than Dosis.
Giving Toxicon a potency higher than Dosis, but lower than Phlegma, would make the skill feel better to use.
As-is, its fine.. its just not particularly fun. -
12-07-2021, 12:32 AMHyoMinParkPardon, I was looking at the wrong potencies for both. So I stand corrected in that regard. But it doesn’t change my main complaint of the skill not being one worth chasing, and I’m not really a fan of such mechanics when it comes to job design.Quote:
Originally Posted by nelothi
In terms of potency it’s the same—but it’s still not worth fishing for outside of downtime or pre-pull shielding shenanigans. Personally, they should change that. It ends up being a “well cool if I have it, but whatever if I don’t” sort of ability. That’s what I was getting at. -
12-07-2021, 01:01 AMQooEr
toxicon needs to be more damage than dosis. even if its a tiny bit more. Getting toxicons and using them feels satisfying... or it would, if i actually had any real reason to want to do that.
Whats the point of fishing for toxicons when phlegma and icarus give plenty of mobility to sage already? theres times where i get to a bodd wjth plenty of toxicons and prepull shields, only to realize that my efforts to fish for adderstings was pointless -
12-07-2021, 01:26 AMHyperiusUltima
@HyoMinPark - We also don’t want to overbloat oGCDs either. We already have a ton of those tools as is and don’t want to overload ourselves. I’m ok with it being instant cast, but as people have said Toxicon needs a damage bump(like about 40 potency) to probably be worth the 900 MP you’re throwing at it post-82.
I’ve been throwing it pre-pull as well, and I don’t mind that in a dungeon setting. In a raid setting though, we’d be the first to react to on-demand TBs. In general, I’m still of the mind Addersgall = Addersting so that our shield isn’t a requisite bit more of a reactive planning tool to deal with TBs because the Shield potency is pretty good as weak as people think it is. -
12-07-2021, 01:47 AMSylveMaybe I'm just wierd, But i view Toxikon the same way i view Misery.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
That is to say, its a refund of sorts rather than a DPS booster. For mass pulls, the smoothest ones are those that i actively "fish" for Toxikon by keeping E-Diags on the Tank on every other GCD. If i crit, Dyskrasia while the shield holds. If no crit, Toxikon -> Refresh E-Diag. Repeat until trash is dead.
For bosses, i'll use it for movement phases over Dosis and when i know a fight has limited need to move I'll stack charges so i can drop 3 in a row after hitting Lucid to squeeze that bit more MP out of it.
I guess i see it more as an occasional free Dosis on a boss than something i desperately want to have. Kind of like how Misery mostly just feels like snatching back the lost potency from not casting Glare.
Then again, my preferred playstyle is to keep the party full while spending as many GCDs on DPS as i can. Do i do a little less DPS than someone who operates under the "Only the last hitpoint matters" mantra? Probably. But the way i play it eliminates the tedium of spamming 1 button for a minute straight. -
12-07-2021, 01:57 AMnelothiI agree. Toxicon should have a potency above dosis but below phlegma.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
I do think it is worth casting though, saying it isnt is a bit disingenuous — as it is right now, you will always have charges to cast toxicon as long as you are actively letting your shield break on the tank before refreshing it. So not casting it is an MP waste, as it basically replaces dosis 1 for 1 and doesnt cost mana.
one suggestion would be for the whole dps kit to have their GCDs adjusted so that you can double weave Toxicon and Phlegma into your GCD after a Dosis cast.
This would not only be more engaging for your dps rotation, but also provide a decent heal to your Kardia target.
I went over a bunch of suggestions in a thread i just made that included this. -
12-07-2021, 02:15 AMHyoMinParkOur oGCDs are all heals that will ultimately be scripted within any given fight. I don’t think having 1 of the 4 AOE abilities we have being oGCD will bog us down. It will break up the monotony of moments where you are spamming Dosis III and nothing more. I’m reminded constantly of healing E7S where I didn’t have to do any healing for the first 2 mins of the fight (my group had PLD/WAR so the busters were always inconsequential). If they have fights like that in ShB, I’d like an oGCD ability to weave to break up my regular spam. If it isn’t Toxicon, Phlegma is an alternative.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima
-
12-07-2021, 02:20 AMnelothiBeing able to double weave our Toxicon and Phlegma with our dosis casts would make everything feel better. it would even make Kardia feel more impactful.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
-
12-07-2021, 02:20 AMHyoMinParkThe worth of it is very much divided right now from what I can see amongst others playing the job. I see several that disagree with the worth because you have to dump 900 MP + 2 GCDs to get procs for it—so, in their opinion, fishing is a waste; and you use it if you have it, but it’s not a huge deal if you don’t. It isn’t worth the chase to try and optimize damage output or anything like that. Increasing potency could change that. At the very least, I think it shouldn’t be the same as Dosis.Quote:
Originally Posted by nelothi
It would be nice to have Toxicon worth chasing. Could maybe incentivize GCD shielding more, rather than the first recourse always being “exhaust oGCDs, and then resort to GCD”. Outside of shielding for busters.
And I am all for a DPS weave. Be it Toxicon or Phlegma. I’ve seen some disagree with making them oGCD, but I think it will break up a bit of the single-target nuke spam on bosses.
In dungeons and AOE situations, I have very little complaints about Toxicon. But when I consider single-target is where I wish it was just a little bit better in some regard.
I’d personally like to see more on the Kardion mechanic. The idea of healing via damage has always intrigued me, and I really want to see a healer that can do more of that. Maybe in the future, SGE will get an expansion on that aspect. An AOE version on a cooldown for raid wides could be interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by nelothi
-
12-07-2021, 02:41 AMrewdYou wouldn't be the first one to react to a TB and most importantly you wouldn't use Eukrasian Diagnosis for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima
-
12-07-2021, 02:45 AMnelothiAm i wrong in thinking that you should basically always be looking to refresh your Eukrasian Diagnosis shield after it breaks on the tank?Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
Im new to healing in FFXIV, but so far i see no reason to not refresh the shield after it breaks every time, so the MP cost of Toxicon would be a moot point — if youre like me and are always refreshing it, that is.
It just feels odd to me that Kardia is a HUGE part of Sages identity, and its very unimpactful. I havent got to the first trial back, so im just speculating here... But I dont see Kardia being anything special in actual boss encounters.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
In my other thread I made the suggestion that Enhanced Kerachole should be changed to put Kardia on your whole party for 15 seconds, rather than just be a HoT effect. This would make Kardia actually... a big thing. But thats not what this thread is about so leme get off that topic. -
12-07-2021, 02:55 AMHyoMinParkIn this game, no, you would not be refreshing Eukrasian Diagnosis after each break. Healers in this game are very heavily focused on oGCD healing > GCD healing. Aside from the fact that having 100% uptime for your shield on the MT is a poor usage of mana and your GCD, it would also negate your Kardion effect. Which is Sage’s main gimmick. Shields are always scripted in encounters for busters or raidwides. If they aren’t needed, they’re dropped in favor of other GCD abilities (in our case, Dosis III/Phlegma).Quote:
Originally Posted by nelothi
For dungeons, if you are constantly spamming Eukrasian Diagnosis on a tank holding 10 mobs, your shield breaks before you GCD even has a chance to reset. You will bottom out quickly relying on keeping it up 100% of the time. It’s fine for pre-pull or as the tank is running—or if you need that split second to get an Addersgall effect for a burst heal—but you would never want to spam it. It would also prevent you from dealing damage and healing passively with Kardia—which, again, negates Sage’s gimmick. Plus, with a good tank, you won’t have to heal them hardly as much (depending on the dungeon, of course. Some hit harder than others.)
Kardia is a regen. It’s effectively the equivalent of a SCH’s fairy Embrace. While it won’t be effective against things like tankbusters, HoTs have always been incredibly strong in this game. Having a passive HoT on the main tank of an encounter means you are casting less Diagnoses and using less of your other resources in the long run (and your cohealer as well—since healing is always a collaborative effort). Which is ideal/optimized play for healers in this game. I don’t see the stat squish changing that all that much.Quote:
It just feels odd to me that Kardia is a HUGE part of Sages identity, and its very unimpactful. I havent got to the first trial back, so im just speculating here... But I dont see Kardia being anything special in actual boss encounters.
That would essentially be the same as what Kerachole already is. But the idea behind Kerachole (and shield healers in general) is that you mitigate first, and then heal. We’re meant to lessen the incoming damage versus raw healing through it. Think of us as the more “proactive” healers, versus WHM/AST, who are “reactive” (though they also have proactive elements to them at times). We know damage is coming, so we prep necessary shields/mitigation when needed. Versus “AOE goes out > heal”. Granted, this is not strictly black and white—but this is the only way I can think of how to explain it. I apologize if it doesn’t make a lot of sense.Quote:
In my other thread I made the suggestion that Enhanced Kerachole should be changed to put Kardia on your whole party for 15 seconds, rather than just be a HoT effect. This would make Kardia actually... a big thing. But thats not what this thread is about so leme get off that topic.
I don’t really see a reason to change Kreachole at all—but I have played AST and SCH, and with it being the equivalent to their Collective Unconscious and Sacred Soil respectively, I recognize just how powerful of an ability it already is in its current form. -
12-07-2021, 03:08 AMHyperiusUltimaI also think Kardion can be improved upon. There recently was a thread put up asking about that, but to reiterate my thought here is that current Kardion is enough for SGE to get by if you’re playing at a high level. In Trials and Raids, SGE especially needs fight knowledge and timing to effectively use its kit - moreso than SCH due to the abilities and utility we have built in.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
-
12-07-2021, 03:13 AMHyperiusUltimaYou wouldn’t use Haima because that 150 pot Shield isn’t good enough if we’re comparing something like E12S TBs. It might save a few autos, but it takes a moment to refresh itself. If you’re thinking Taurachole, that’s be for mitigation if your tank needs the extra 10%. Zoe + Eukrasian Diagnosis(especially a crit) gives more than enough value for TBs provided the MT is using their CDs. Otherwise, it wouldn’t hold up.Quote:
Originally Posted by rewd
-
12-07-2021, 03:38 AMHyoMinParkQuote:
Originally Posted by rewd
Ultimately for busters, the resources from your tanks, DPS, and cohealer will determine what you use for a buster. Trying to argue about if you use Eukrasian Diagnosis or not is a difficult argument to have without the full and proper context.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima
If your tank is immunitying, then absolutely you would not use it (or anything at all if you have a PLD—GNB/DRK would likely rely on Bene/Macrokosmos because SCH/SGE wants to cry when facing those, especially LD; my cohealer and I have already told both of our tanks that our answer to LD on SCH/SGE is Swiftcast-Raise lol). If they aren’t, then you will be consulting with your cohealer about what they have before looking at your kit. You would likely want to consult with some select DPS about what they might have available, since that could also affect what you use.
But, if the trend of healers continues, a GCD shield will likely be your last answer for a Buster, and only an option if you have nothing else to throw on the tank.