What Changes Does New Summoner Need?

Lets try to move on and accept this is summoner now and have an actual discussion on potential improvements to the class.

I think new summoner is pretty cool, how ever I do think there should be a couple changes.

1. Ifrit Titan and Garuda should be OGCD. The class feels like it was designed more around weaving with the change to ruin and a large number of spells being instant cast but we have hardly any ogcds to weave.

Edited: 2. Ruin IV does not really fit well in it's current state. As it is we are typically going to use our first Energy Drain while Bahamut is out. Ruin IV is no different than astral impulse so there is no reason to use it here. After Bahamut is gone you are likely going through your summons and there charges now which takes almost the full cd of Bahamut. As further ruin lasts for 60 seconds it feels like the only time Ruin IV has a place, is if we have to move vs casting ruby rite / slipstream, or you hold onto as your Ruin III filler before going into Bahamut again. It just feels weird perhaps it would work better as a OGCD stack from something else vs making the summons an OGCD.

3. For those of you that want the class to be a little more complex. I think it would be cool to be allowed to summon any of the 3 summons instead of each one once. They would have to likely do some balancing but I think it would add some spice to the class.

Edited: 4. Pheonix combo cast should come back or rekindle should be another deathflare type move (I am selfish sorry). Pheonix feels very underwhelming when compared to bahamut.

5. Can we finally get summon glamours!?


Edit: Original 2. Ifrit and Titan should be ranged like Garuda. Assuming at 90 they function the same way. I feel like the hit boxes make Ifrit and Titan feel wonky and it does not hit all the targets well. It seems like they use there move at max range and clip the enemy you target rather than get in its face and execute the move. Making them all ranged is a more simple fix though let alone decreases the delay of the action going off.

Original 4: (More for the looks) I wouldn't mind if Titan, Ifrit and Garuda actually stayed out like Bahamut/Pheonix and our spells just made them do x ability. Assuming this functions with out delays as previous pets were clunky.

I'm gonna be frank with you and SE. Nothing short of a full revert to 5.0 SMN will appease me, New Coke SMN is beyond abysmal mechanically, feels horrible to play, and still has all the same old companion AI bugs plus the new ones you mentioned and I wont touch it with a 10fulm pole. What that means in time and monetary terms is when I get tired of playing MCH, WHM, and WAR (which probably wont take very long once they are leveled) I'll just unsub and wait for Ishgard housing in 6.1.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

I'm gonna be frank with you and SE. Nothing short of a full revert to 5.0 SMN will appease me, New Coke SMN is beyond abysmal mechanically, feels horrible to play, and still has all the same old companion AI bugs plus the new ones you mentioned and I wont touch it with a 10fulm pole. What that means in time and monetary terms is when I get tired of playing MCH, WHM, and WAR (which probably wont take very long once they are leveled) I'll just unsub and wait for Ishgard housing in 6.1.

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Was hoping for actual suggestions vs crying for a revert that won't happen. Personally I think summoner was a mess in 5.0 (specially before the changes to egi assult) and these changes were needed. But you are entitled to your opinion. If you want that old mess back go play WoW and play affliction warlock since your are going to unsub anyways. It plays way smoother than what we had in summoner and we will be rid of your whining.

I like the new Summoner. I feel like an actual Summoner now. I like the changes you suggested.

Instead of being forced to summon all three, you could have 3 "summoning charges" which could be used on any of them. You get three summons of any kind and then head into the Phoenix phase.

I like the idea of having the Primals out the entire time they're summoned. I don't necessarily need more OGCD's because the instant casts feel good as it is. But allowing us to summon the Primals on OGCD's is a good idea. Otherwise we have an entire GCD where we're can't deal damage. Sure, the damage comes after the Primals summoning animation is complete, but having them not be tied to the gcd would be nice.

Ps. That second poster sounds like a child. "Whah! My class is different now! I'm going to unsub because everything else is boring!!"

Simmer down my dude.

Edit: I thought of a suggestion of my own. Lets make Physick work.

At L32 the Summoner could get a trait that either replaces the spell altogether which will allow it to scale off of intellect, or give us a trait that increases the potency to 8,000.

Currently a Summoner's Physick does 20X less healing than a Scholar's. So just increase the potency by 20X (400 x 20 = 8000) and there you go. Fixed the problem.

(I said L32 so that way Summoners who have been using their heal since they started wouldn't feel left out. You could have it later on in the 50-60 range though, but Summoners might feel cheated if they had a heal then lost it only to get it back 30 levels later.)

Paladin and Red Mage both have heals that scale with their primary stat. I want Summoner's too as well.

Then let me enlighten you - we aren't getting any mechanical changes before the next exp. When have they ever made changes to how a job functions despite outcry? What you see is what you get. The best you can hope for is a numbers-tuning pass or if you are very, very VERY, exceedingly lucky the ridiculous self-targeting of AoE abilities on the primals might get changed. I wouldn't hold my breath given how long-lasting the companion AI bugs have been present. They literally fixed none of them in the redesign, they're all still there, they just tried to cover them up with a new coat of clearance bin paint.

None. Forget about it, won't happen. If you don't like the job play another one.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

Then let me enlighten you - we aren't getting any mechanical changes before the next exp. When have they ever made changes to how a job functions despite outcry? What you see is what you get. The best you can hope for is a numbers-tuning pass or if you are very, very VERY, exceedingly lucky the ridiculous self-targeting of AoE abilities on the primals might get changed. I wouldn't hold my breath given how long-lasting the companion AI bugs have been present. They literally fixed none of them in the redesign, they're all still there, they just tried to cover them up with a new coat of clearance bin paint.

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Have you ever read patch notes before? They have actually changed skills for multiple classes during patches in almost every expansion. Good example, they reworked monk in Shadowbringers. You are either showing your ignorance or stupidity.

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Originally Posted by Meowdyj

None. Forget about it, won't happen. If you don't like the job play another one.

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No reason to be a rude I never said I did not like the class. These are simply ideas for improvement and a place to discuss ideas for improvement. And see comment above they have made changes to classes during a patch cycle. Same thing you are showing your ignorance or stupidity you both have either never read patch notes or never played through an entire expansion cycle.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

I'm gonna be frank with you and SE. Nothing short of a full revert to 5.0 SMN will appease me, New Coke SMN is beyond abysmal mechanically, feels horrible to play, and still has all the same old companion AI bugs plus the new ones you mentioned and I wont touch it with a 10fulm pole. What that means in time and monetary terms is when I get tired of playing MCH, WHM, and WAR (which probably wont take very long once they are leveled) I'll just unsub and wait for Ishgard housing in 6.1.

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Please no.

New summoner is way better.

All I want is to have Shiva/Leviathan/Ramuh added as Summons in whatever way they find possible, be it as their own trances or as glamours. Alexander/Odin would be great to have to. Also it would be marvellous if those who still yearn for the Affliction Warlock days could find something else to do instead of clogging up reasonable discussion threads with demands to return to 5.0 SMN. Goodness. Even the male Viera crowd wasn't as negative when Shadowbringers launched and they didn't get what they wanted.

That being said, for obvious reasons there will never be a return to the disastrous state of old SMN. More people are happier with the class now, despite whatever a vocal minority on this forum would like to believe. Already their takes have made it out to the wider world and onto other social media sites where the discussion is well, predictable considering that those happy with the rework outnumber Affliction Warlocks 10 to 1.

New smn is amazing don't ruin (IV) it please.

i love the new summoner, only pet peeve is have is that i got no idea why they decided to make garuda and titans abilities instant cast while giving ifrit an actual cast bar why cant ifrit be instant too :(

I quite like the new version, those used to the stacks on stacks older version I can see maybe not being crazy happy, but I think this one has an easier to work with base so if we needed to find middle ground I think a full revert would be unnecessary (I'm not pleased at others suffering).

I do think the level 86 astral flow changes make the job more complete, so I wonder if a weaker variant sooner would help people. For those who feel the job needs more, I think that point in leveling is going to make them happier (not saying whatever issue they had is removed, just seems like a strong evolving point for the job).

I think my personal complaints, though fairly minor, is carby seems to exist to not to exist lol and maybe some change would present a more ideal narrative (constantly being un-summoned), and physick is still pretty much a wasted slot- but I think they could have a lot of fun with it (physick slot).

An easy way to make physick nice might be if you have a stack for fester / painflare it will consume one but greatly increase it's effectiveness (perhaps using carby as an animation point, so carby gets three skills). This would be, I imagine, relatively easy change (compared some other choices) and can make the slot not feel entirely wasted space but also not throw out balance. More complicated but potentially more fun is to have it morph at each primal step, give it some mechanic for balance, rekindle for example might exist in this new morphing support slot.

Absolutely a lot more work but would increase the amount of choices one could do, that I feel wouldn't kill our current structure, is adding a proc system akin to dancer / bard / red mage. Not extremely frequent proc to save people's fingers, but there might be a skill at later levels that can manually trigger it too (like red mage has). When the proc happens fester and painflare morph into primal related variants (based on your step).

So for example proc titan fester goes to gaol which will stun / interrupt and deal fester damage. Ifrit painflare would be eruption. Due to their extra unique aspect besides an extra thing to sometimes react to and play different keys (oGCD, maybe remove the ruin mechanic to prevent broken fingers lol), there would also be sometimes nice decision making moments like you could hit the pack for more damage via titan painflare (probably tumult or sands based), but gaol on the super annoying mini-boss trash monster would be far more helpful so you do that instead of most damage (gaol not stunning bosses of course, but perhaps make excellent lock down in singular trash monsters- will deal damage regardless of CC resistance). This system could also work nicely with changing physick (like bard and bloodletter / rain of death, you can only choose one proc), so then there is justification in making the support skills powerful (costs damage, akin to how Paladin operates around clemency). Though you can see how that is three new skills per primal step lol.

Anyway, I think the current is best in the morphing aspect and quite aggressive feeling with crazy strong primal vibes in the end. I would love for everyone to be enjoying the job, but also I don't think a revert is really necessary. I think it has a strong foundation, and maybe some tweaks can help others appreciate it more, but I think I'm also seeing a lot of new fans to the job. Certainly the DoT mage before is now open for a new job though (like I always felt 2.0 SMN was fun, just not a good SMN- I can imagine they could, if they find the right theme, make an excellent dot job).

@ryouma17 - it's adding flavor to each form so they are more than different colors in each step. I think it's a really cool touch, I'm quite happy with the differences they worked in without breaking balance overall for the job. Each primal isn't "copy pasted ruin damage plus with primal coat of paint". Especially at level 86, I really feel that is going to be a huge moment for a lot of players but it is far away for many still.. xD

None It's perfect as is, your stupid if you cant realize that . All it needs now is more summons Levi,Ramuh,shiva with two new demis to rotate through all of the.
The two new demis being Alexander , and Anima. Which will trigger purple gem, sapphire gem, and a limestone gem i guess.

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Originally Posted by FusiaRain

None It's perfect as is, your stupid if you cant realize that . All it needs now is more summons Levi,Ramuh,shiva with two new demis to rotate through all of the.
The two new demis being Alexander , and Anima. Which will trigger purple gem, sapphire gem, and a limestone gem i guess.

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This fits pretty well to the narrative of the afk jobs

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Originally Posted by Jirah

This fits pretty well to the narrative of the afk jobs

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Its not afk are you really that dumb?

You are using a button every second of play with no time

I think they are on the right track with SMN
ive always wanted something more like FFX style summoning. and its sort of there.
Either it should act as its own AI while you dish out your own spells - more like GuardianForce from FFVIII, or it should go full blown FFX aeon summon and doesn't go away until dead or dismissed.
but i havent really tried it too much bc im sticking with DRG until 90 and until its easier to log in.

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Originally Posted by FusiaRain

Its not afk are you really that dumb?

You are using a button every second of play with no time

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Yes 1 button

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Originally Posted by Jirah

Yes 1 button

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Lol of your using only one button you are trash or ur just trolling. Its 7-8 buttons to do the full set

I feel it needs a no cast/low dmg option for when you are on the move, just a single target not so fussed on AoE option.
Lower dungeons it is boring as all hell. Needed a little bit extra xp so ran a lvlling and got Copperbell. It was painful.
Energy Drain/Siphon and Fester/Painflare just seems pointless with such a long cool down considering they were used in conjunction with the DoTs. I think that is just because it was a natural progression of your rotation, DoTs then get your Aetherflow that is how it plays in my head.
I played around with it for a good 45 min before doing anything else. Setting up hotbars reading the different things and kept feeling like I was missing something.
IMHO at this point I might just stick to RDM/BLM for casting because at least they feel more interesting and challenging.

And can my carbuncle do something other than just stare at me!!

Feels like they could probably have kept the dots tbh, I don't know, would give you something to keep an eye on I suppose.

Guess I'll get it to 90 at some point, see how it feels as it is.

Honestly even though I still liked Summoner in ShB, I already thought it was a step down from SB Summoner ^^"
I thought it was great back then, but people seem to complain about any job that you have to put any thought in, and SE listens to those people...
So GG now we've got braindead Sum.
They could add a few more actions, even Tanks have more than 1 hotbar >_>

smn need instance cast with the summons abilities but rest is fine tbh

The ideas presented with the new summoner are good but the execution is terrible. Honestly, I really hate attunements. I would like to pick the right summon for the right situation instead of them being part of a mostly static rotation. Do you have downtime during a fight? Maybe a safe place to stand? Summon ifrit and become a mini blm for most of the fight with high sustained damage. Add phase in a fight? There's garuda to aoe them down. Oh no! A big room wide aoe brought the party to low hp. Let's help the healer by choosing to summon Phoenix. Need some burst? Bahamut! Titan. I don't know what to do about titan. Doesn't seem like SE knows either. Maybe summon for mobility? He punches stuff while you dance around. The ideas are there but they are all locked behind a limiting and static rotation. And we're still tied to the same janky pets.

This feels like the job we should have gotten in ARR. However, we're 4 expansions past ARR and it doesn't deliver.

EDIT: Also revert the bahamut/phoenix changes. ie two ahk morns per bahamut summon. fountain of flame + brand of purgatory combo during phoenix.

EDIT EDIT: The new summons should build attunements not cost attunements. When you have maybe 5 attunements you can summon bahamut and maybe 7 you can summon phoenix. Get rid of the colors. Just kinda spitballing.

EDITx3: Do something about Gemshine, Precious Brilliance and Astral Flow. Maybe when carbuncle is out these spells become Ruin/Outburst line of spells.

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Originally Posted by ryouma17

i love the new summoner, only pet peeve is have is that i got no idea why they decided to make garuda and titans abilities instant cast while giving ifrit an actual cast bar why cant ifrit be instant too :(

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All three act differently. Titan is instant cast moderate damage. Garuda is super fast recast timer, so you can get 4 spells out in the time it takes to get 2 of Titans. And Ifrit has the cast times because his spells hit like a truck. It's just a trade off. Quick and weak, slow and powerful with Titan being right in the middle.

I'm not so bummed about it because of how much movement we have now. Nearly everything is instant cast, and I love it. I can bare to stand still every now and again to cast a hard hitting spell.

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

This feels like the job we should have gotten in ARR. However, we're 4 expansions past ARR and it doesn't deliver.

EDIT: Also revert the bahamut/phoenix changes. ie two ahk morns per bahamut summon. fountain of flame + brand of purgatory combo during phoenix.

EDIT EDIT: The new summons should build attunements not cost attunements. When you have maybe 5 attunements you can summon bahamut and maybe 7 you can summon phoenix. Get rid of the colors. Just kinda spitballing.

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I can agree with these. The attunements building probably wouldn't happen but its neat idea.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

I can agree with these. The attunements building probably wouldn't happen but its neat idea.

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Yeah probably not. I think that's my core problem with the new summoner. The attunements feel backwards. We should be building attunements across the new summons not spending them right away when one comes out. Building up to bahamut / phoenix was a large part of the fun of the old summoner which is gone now.

Most likely I would expect Shiva/leviathan/ramuh next expansion. It's the logical evolution of having them replace ifrit/Titan/Garuda every demi summon. So your rotation would be bahamut--- ifrit/Titan/Garuda---- phoenix----shiva/ramuh/leviathan. That seems the most likely path they'll take next expac. It also nicely covers all the elements.

Overall while I do miss some of the complexity from previous SMN i can accept the simplicity of this version as a building block. My main complaints with the job in it's current iteration are demi Simmons being effected by spell speed, having them be 56 seconds instead of 60 drifts the use of aether flow thru the rotation which while not a major issue is a minor annoyance. And honestly aetherflow just feels out of place now, I wouldn't be surprised if they completely removed it next expac in favor of something else.

I would hope to see a bit more complexity added next expac to the frame that they've built this time. Also I've been saying for years that they need to give physick an upgrade to be a summon mog ability on a cooldown, some good old FFT feelings while making the skill actually somewhat useful. Making it an ogcd heal on a long cooldown would make it useable without stepping on red mages toes as the utility caster imo.

So a couple things I've noticed so far.
1. Remove the "in combat trigger from searing light
2. Ruin IV feels like it should be ogcd or a trait to upgrade ruin III (not sure on this one though it does feel clunky to me as is)
3. I like someone else's suggestion of having ifrit ruda and Titan being Demi's. That would also let us change their size with the /petsize command
4. Not a fan of the gap closer with ifrit.
5. Energy drain/syphon into fester and aoe "fester" feels like extra steps, maybe just do away with aether charges all together.
Overall though I'm happy with new smn, it feels like one kit working together vs old smn having multiple years trying to work together but not being the same size.

I honestly think they approached it with the wrong idea in mind. Like your jewel summons should give access to demi summons and not the current way

Why is ifrit the weakest in the bunch but puts you in the most risk?

Why have energy drain? Aethercharge and the replacement abilities fills that need in terms of class design. We don't need it. Just have them grant af stacks and ruin 4

Why are we essential casting the same spell over and over again?

Searing light is basically available when you use bahamut...why not just use bahamut to give out the buff much like how Phoenix grants a regen?

Why do we lose dps when we hit lvl 80 and get phoenix?

This version of summoner has a lot of kinks to be worked out before it becomes a fully formed class idea

having the summons appear at the target or just cast from a range would probably be the main thing for me, As funny as it is watching them do a suicide run at the target it's not super effective a lot of the time.

the drain/fester stuff feels super disconnected like gunbreakers dot's too but that's not so bad to me

Would probably just make carbuncle a passive too at this point, he doesn't actually do anything you just need him summoned to do everything else

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Lets try to move on and accept this is summoner now and have an actual discussion on potential improvements to the class.

I think new summoner is pretty cool, how ever I do think there should be a couple changes.

1. Ifrit Titan and Garuda should be OGCD. The class feels like it was designed more around weaving with the change to ruin and a large number of spells being instant cast but we have hardly any ogcds to weave.

2. Ifrit and Titan should be ranged like Garuda. Assuming at 90 they function the same way. I feel like the hit boxes make Ifrit and Titan feel wonky and it does not hit all the targets well. It seems like they use there move at max range and clip the enemy you target rather than get in its face and execute the move. Making them all ranged is a more simple fix though let alone decreases the delay of the action going off.

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Definitely agree with #1 but include bahamut and Phoenix summons OGCD as well.

#2: level 90 here. They are ranged when summoned once you hit 90. It’s strange that carbuncle and egi level one are melee but egi-2 is ranged