Poll: How would you like that FFXIV developed around challenging/complex content

Hi! I made this poll inspired by this thread, where a lot of different opinions were voiced: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ntent-gameplay

I want to get a more clear overview of players' view by making a poll. I would like to understand if players would find the game more or less interesting if proportionally more challenging/complex content was added. In the sense that devs would spend proportionally more time on such content making, with the consequence of less challenging/complex content would decrease proportionally.

https://strawpoll.com/j1byos423

Please come with feedback on the poll itself! It was tricky to formulate the questions.

Are you posting this poll anywhere else?
Because just sampling from the forums you're gonna get a pretty skewed view of things.

Also, the word "proportionately" is pretty vague.
Can you give us a better sense of how much of a difficulty change you mean?

I did, you can follow it here. https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ped_in_regard/

In terms of what I mean with more of a difficulty change, I feel it is hard to define since everyone's perception of difficulty is different.
Could you give me an example of you how you would phrase yourself?

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Originally Posted by Picea

In terms of what I mean with more of a difficulty change, I feel it is hard to define since everyone's perception of difficulty is different.
Could you give me an example of you how you would phrase yourself?

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Maybe instead of "proportionately" (which begs the question "in proportion to what?") you could simply say "notably."
It would be another modular word that can mean whatever jump suits the reader, but one less able to confuse the reader.

Unfortunately the problem is that what counts as challenging and complex tends to be subjective. For example; for me, personally, the boss that kills me more than any other is Adrammelech. Despite just being a series of re-used mechanics cranked up to eleven, I can't wrap my head around it and die all the time. I find that specific boss more complicated and difficult than any other raid boss or trial I've done. But most people who hear that will laugh and call me a casual baby for not being able to sleep walk through it - despite my favorite encounters being some of the ones that other people hate or find too convoluted and complex. So when it comes to a poll that doesn't go into too much detail about what it means, you're not going to be getting detail about whether the people saying yes are the people who want more bosses puzzle-like encounters, more trials like Seat of Sacrifice or if maybe they're people who find Leviathan complex and difficult and don't want more things like that because they still struggle to figure out the logic behind where he pops out on the sides of the raft.

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Originally Posted by Dewslam

Unfortunately the problem is that what counts as challenging and complex tends to be subjective. For example; for me, personally, the boss that kills me more than any other is Adrammelech. Despite just being a series of re-used mechanics cranked up to eleven, I can't wrap my head around it and die all the time. I find that specific boss more complicated and difficult than any other raid boss or trial I've done. But most people who hear that will laugh and call me a casual baby for not being able to sleep walk through it - despite my favorite encounters being some of the ones that other people hate or find too convoluted and complex. So when it comes to a poll that doesn't go into too much detail about what it means, you're not going to be getting detail about whether the people saying yes are the people who want more bosses puzzle-like encounters, more trials like Seat of Sacrifice or if maybe they're people who find Leviathan complex and difficult and don't want more things like that because they still struggle to figure out the logic behind where he pops out on the sides of the raft.

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While you're correct in general, being able to run through 2 rooms, pull / kill everything with no real threat and move on is objectively easier than having to carefully pull 1 group at a time or die. Some people might argue that it would only slow down gameplay without adding anything, which is true if you half-ass it and say, adjust things so that now you can only pull ONE room instead of 2 but still have no real risk of dying.

It needs to be one or the other - you may as well just remove them entirely and make dungeons a series of boss fights because nobody's stopping to look at the beautiful architecture / textures when speeding through the place to the next boss, OR you make every encounter dangerous. For example, a room with 3 groups of 3 mobs, where to be safe you'd have to pull the groups 1 at a time and perma CC one of the 3, but if you accidentally pull 2 groups you have about 10 seconds to say good bye to your wife and kids before going pop.

If people want to speed run dungeons, then fine - let them! There's nothing wrong with that, but with how big of a player base ff14 has an obvious (though not necessarily easy to implement) solution would be 2 queues. 1 for those who "just want to get it over with", and another for people who are way more focused on the experience than just getting done. There are arguments to be made on how you would make the dungeons harder, but there's absolutely no doubt in my mind (and the poll, while a small sample size, does support this) that there's a very significant portion of the player base who would LOVE this.

I'd start playing again in a fucking heartbeat. I know a lot of older gamers (30+) who grew up with challenging PvE experiences and are all disgruntled with the current state of things. That's not everyone over 30, obviously, but that's my experience.

*raises hand* I for one miss crowd control and mezzes. Gosh, does anyone who plays MMOs these days even know what a mez is? Am I that old?

I think its fine how it is. Dungeons are not meant to be overly difficult and even then some of the boss fights are quite creative and people fail them pretty often. The game has harder content in end game for those that want the challenge.

MSQ is fine if your want harder content there is savage extreme etc..

While i´m up for any challenging content, my whole post wasn´t just about "a harder game". It´s more about the lack of new and interesting content and the homogenziation of all classes.
As i´ve written down, ARR had more possibilities on all classes, not a straight linear story-system, maps filled with more love and not 20 quests appearing at once, dungeons to explore, loot which had some use, and and and...

With all expansions, the devs showed more and more lazyness. We move completely braindead from 1 spot to another to complete our MSQ just to afk in limsa in the end, waiting for the finder to get into any content. And there we either do pointless wall to wall bangs or we move from marker A to marker B. The short times, where we revisit any big map, are blocked behind heavy fategrind or hunttrains.

ARR have been a real MMORPG with a learning curve, interesting ideas and possibilities. 2 Weeks ago i just started a new alt in Ul´dah while waiting for Endwalker. Even the leveling phase is way more fun than in the expansions. Walking through the better designed maps, having a handful of spreaded quests directing you in the last corner or to little outposts on the map. It plays so much better.

FF14 with all its dumbdowns is not a real MMO anymore. There is no real learning curve for newcomers since you can play all in easy mode. Even the latest dungeons can be finished with your "trusts". It has become more of a worse singleplayer RPG with some automatically multiplayer-aspects.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

I think its fine how it is. Dungeons are not meant to be overly difficult and even then some of the boss fights are quite creative and people fail them pretty often. The game has harder content in end game for those that want the challenge.

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There are more than enough games which show the opposit. Dungeons are the core of any MMORPG. While the standard dungeons aren´t too hard, no other games has so somplified one than FF14 has. The most do even have harder ones for the endgame. Those we would call "expert" here, but offer more of a challenge and prepare the players for raidcontent, not those stupid rundowns FF14 offers.

With Endwalker even a worse milestones reached dungeons. Wall to wall bang with less adds to pull and on top no XP from them anymore. I believe you never played any other MMO? Once with dungeons to explore, loot which is highly needed and elite-adds you´ve to cc or interupt? (Not saying everything somewhere else is way more challenging, but way more interesting and rewarding than dungeons are in FF.)

I think you need to separate 'challenge' and 'complexity'...

Challenge: Enemies hit hard and have abilities that need to be interrupted / baited... requires players to know their class (cooldowns, etc.) and play as a team.

Complexity: Enemies have confusing, hard to remember, and / or poorly telegraphed 1-shots... requires players to know to 'the fight'.

More challenge, YES! More complexity, no thanks.

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Originally Posted by Acidblood

I think you need to separate 'challenge' and 'complexity'...

Challenge: Enemies hit hard and have abilities that need to be interrupted / baited... requires players to know their class (cooldowns, etc.) and play as a team.

Complexity: Enemies have confusing, hard to remember, and / or poorly telegraphed 1-shots... requires players to know to 'the fight'.

More challenge, YES! More complexity, no thanks.

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It´s not a real challenge to heal a tank which lost 30% or 80% life at a TB, maybe even 0% thx to invul. You just press a button here and there. Complexity as you claim it to be, is even only a thing until you understand how a mechanic works.

To understand a mechanic is kind of a challenge and that´s fine. But in FF14 the patterns are way to strict and we´ve way too much telegraphs and loooooong times casts. You´ve more than enough time to move out somewhere. If you´re not able to do that, than you´re dumb, greeded or just watched netflix nearby.
At the moment i´ve even seen the new triple-stack telegraph i was like "Nooooooooooo, WTF!". Just another dumbdown mechanically wise. Don´t know what´s so hard for ppl to stack properly and don´t split up immediately to see what´s gonna happen? But what do i expect when i still see ppl moving out of a healer bubble or SE made the AST Star bigger than any map so the last idiot on earth isn´t able to move out of it. That any Tankbuster is shown right now with a fat red marker isn´t a deal too.

I don´t get why SE is like "Players have an IQ from 10. Everything needs to be shown to them.". Waiting for the days when SE puts marker on the map and posts a macro in the chat immediately when the fight starts. I don´t even get why so many ppl abuse Bots with the given fight infos. Are they really that bad?

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

It´s not a real challenge to heal a tank which lost 30% or 80% life at a TB, maybe even 0% thx to invul. You just press a button here and there. Complexity as you claim it to be, is even only a thing until you understand how a mechanic works.

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It can be when that hit is followed up by another that takes 30% of the tanks HP, and another, and another, and another... until the boss is dead. Throw in a few harder hits, some AoEs, and some other mechanics and suddenly healers can't just AFK and use oGCDs on occasion... tanks actually have to use cooldowns effectively... and DPS actually have to do mechanics to stay alive... sounds like a decent challenge to me.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

To understand a mechanic is kind of a challenge and that´s fine. But in FF14 the patterns are way to strict and we´ve way too much telegraphs and loooooong times casts. You´ve more than enough time to move out somewhere. If you´re not able to do that, than you´re dumb, greeded or just watched netflix nearby.
At the moment i´ve even seen the new triple-stack telegraph i was like "Nooooooooooo, WTF!". Just another dumbdown mechanically wise. Don´t know what´s so hard for ppl to stack properly and don´t split up immediately to see what´s gonna happen? But what do i expect when i still see ppl moving out of a healer bubble or SE made the AST Star bigger than any map so the last idiot on earth isn´t able to move out of it. That any Tankbuster is shown right now with a fat red marker isn´t a deal too.

I don´t get why SE is like "Players have an IQ from 10. Everything needs to be shown to them.". Waiting for the days when SE puts marker on the map and posts a macro in the chat immediately when the fight starts. I don´t even get why so many ppl abuse Bots with the given fight infos. Are they really that bad?

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The issue with 'challenge' coming from fight complexity / randomness is that FFXIV has a LOT of content, most of which is randomly done via duty roulette.. so while learning a fight might be a fun challenge while it's current, inevitably it just becomes a pain when it pops up in a roulette* and you haven't done it in 5 years... or it gets nerfed into the ground and just becomes a brain-dead slog (which is the current situation for most content).

Having 'challenge' via enemies that are actually a threat at a basic level (i.e. hit hard enough to wake people up) and predictable / telegraphed mechanics allows you to keep the challenge alive (though lessened via gear inflation) even years latter... assuming players know how to play their class.

* This of course does not apply to 'savage' content which is not part of normal roulettes, and IMO where 'complexity' should be a part of the challenge.

This poll does not have enough room for nuance.
"Challenge, difficulty, and how it would affect the gameplay experience" is a very, VERY broad set of concepts, that a yes or no answer will not provide reliable enough feedback for the devs.

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Originally Posted by Acidblood

It can be when that hit is followed up by another that takes 30% of the tanks HP, and another, and another, and another... until the boss is dead. Throw in a few harder hits, some AoEs, and some other mechanics and suddenly healers can't just AFK and use oGCDs on occasion... tanks actually have to use cooldowns effectively... and DPS actually have to do mechanics to stay alive... sounds like a decent challenge to me.

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Even with harder hitting bosses it would last in 1 button spam on healers. Just play a low level dungeon with big pulls, you do it there. Since ressource-management is not a real thing in this game, much more is needed to make a challenge out of it. Any good tank doesn´t need much heal or in case of WAR like 0 heal.

Everyone has to play boss mechanics so far. Only DPS has nothing else to do than being DPS classes and this can get pretty boring. Same if you´re playing Tank (OT) and you don´t have much to do than eating some tankbusters with invul. You only go for 123 and move from A to B when a mechanic appears. And just because an aoe is sometimes linear, a cone, a cross or whatever doesn´t mean that it´s something challenging or different.

Of course some things might be subjectively seen and not everyone is able to get used to a bunch of stuff quickly if ever. But in case of being challenging or complex... FF14 is nothing so far. And while the devs prefer to dumbdown everything and to give af about a decent learning curve, it won´t get any better.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

While i´m up for any challenging content, my whole post wasn´t just about "a harder game". It´s more about the lack of new and interesting content and the homogenziation of all classes.
As i´ve written down, ARR had more possibilities on all classes, not a straight linear story-system, maps filled with more love and not 20 quests appearing at once, dungeons to explore, loot which had some use, and and and...

With all expansions, the devs showed more and more lazyness. We move completely braindead from 1 spot to another to complete our MSQ just to afk in limsa in the end, waiting for the finder to get into any content. And there we either do pointless wall to wall bangs or we move from marker A to marker B. The short times, where we revisit any big map, are blocked behind heavy fategrind or hunttrains.

ARR have been a real MMORPG with a learning curve, interesting ideas and possibilities. 2 Weeks ago i just started a new alt in Ul´dah while waiting for Endwalker. Even the leveling phase is way more fun than in the expansions. Walking through the better designed maps, having a handful of spreaded quests directing you in the last corner or to little outposts on the map. It plays so much better.

FF14 with all its dumbdowns is not a real MMO anymore. There is no real learning curve for newcomers since you can play all in easy mode. Even the latest dungeons can be finished with your "trusts". It has become more of a worse singleplayer RPG with some automatically multiplayer-aspects.



There are more than enough games which show the opposit. Dungeons are the core of any MMORPG. While the standard dungeons aren´t too hard, no other games has so somplified one than FF14 has. The most do even have harder ones for the endgame. Those we would call "expert" here, but offer more of a challenge and prepare the players for raidcontent, not those stupid rundowns FF14 offers.

With Endwalker even a worse milestones reached dungeons. Wall to wall bang with less adds to pull and on top no XP from them anymore. I believe you never played any other MMO? Once with dungeons to explore, loot which is highly needed and elite-adds you´ve to cc or interupt? (Not saying everything somewhere else is way more challenging, but way more interesting and rewarding than dungeons are in FF.)

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Then go play something else? Oh wait, no MMO follows those insane designs anymore for obvious reasons.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Oh wait, no MMO follows those insane designs anymore for obvious reasons.

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You mean money-making?! Of course all went the same when more and more ppl are like "I´m so excited, take my money!" about some visuals, low efford content and braindead afk-gameplay.It has nothing to do with gaming to open the wallet for some XP-buffs, glam or even pets / mounts, meanwhile spamming one button to go trough 95% of the whole game just to earn pointless loot.

Once gaming war much more than just milking the cows. But who wonders with all the casuals out there being like "I´ve no time, i´m always stressed, so please fast and easy loot for my self-convinience please! I would even pay for that!". It´s ridiculous. Rushing the whole content just to be like "I don´t have anything to do anymore."
I don´t even know why ppl actually play FF14, when they spent more time afk in Limsa or just don´t have enough time. I don´t even know why ppl with 1h time each evening play a MMORPG lol.

Why shouldn´t we have real content, when we´re able to smash this 1 button until everything is dead? Why do we need an awesome gameplay-experience, when we just need some cuty uwu-uwu animations and sick glam? You guys are no serious gamers, you´re just walking wallets if you really enjoy all the braindead content and dumbdowns that much.

You have rose tinted glasses. ARR fights were nowhere near as complex as modern content. ARR was also slow and tedious with a ton of limitations thank to the PS3.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

You have rose tinted glasses. ARR fights were nowhere near as complex as modern content. ARR was also slow and tedious with a ton of limitations thank to the PS3.

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I´m not talking about fights only. But even if i would, what´s so complex with all the telegraphs they´ve added with each expansion? Or with all the moving from A to B mostly? At the EX version of one of the new primals you can give someone a mark above his head and the group follows, eaaaasy. Meanwhile stuff like the 2nd boss in Aurum Vale got patched after years, so ppl don´t die anymore to castbars. And in stuff like MSQ or classquests we got some "easier pls uwu" buttons.

And do you even play savage? Is it a complex design that the whole group wipes because 1 guy stands 1mm to far left or right? And even when things may become a little bit more complex, the boss is going to be untargetable.

ARR might have been slower, but it had way more complexity and stuff to remember.