Endwalker summoner question

I have a question I'm wondering if folks here can help with. Summoner rotation is one of those I never understood very well until I did it and so I'm looking for a little help understanding the new one as well.

As you'll probably have noted if you read the tooltips for the new summoner, Ruin 4 - while not gone - has been nerfed to pretty much oblivion. That is, specifically, now it grants very little mobility.

However, to offset that, one of the new primal phases is mobility focused, and there seems to be a fair number of new instants in general - but I'm not so clear on how it all fits together, exactly.

So, my question to those that understand the new rotation better - how much is the new summoner's mobility tied to specific phases? Does it have OK/good "general mobility"/mobility options outside of specific phases?

over all its rotation is still somewhat big. you have different phases you go in have your bahamut/phoenix phase. then have elemental primal phases inbetween them. each primal does something different

Bahamut
Garada - aoe damage and ground aoe dot like thing
titan - rapid dps
Ifirit - big damage numbers/gap closer
Pheniox

summoner experence to me overall fun. each time you summon each of the primals they will enkindle doing big aoe damage. this will make summoner out scale blackmage when it comes to aoe damage vs elemental weaknesses

this gives summoner classic final fantasy feel when summon something does big damage disappears while it buffs the summoner. changing elemental attributes of your spells. giving you an edge kinda. elemental resistances are somewhat a thing just dont really notice them

sooner or later they will get Shiva, Ramah. leviathan too making it into pretty nice rotation. by giving summoner elemental shift kinda feel

total 10 enkindles. big big damage
you have 2 buttons that change when you summon these you use each summon has complete total different feel and purpose

Summoner mobility is overall pretty good. You have only 1.5sec cast times so you can slidecast after 1 second and move 1.5sec after each cast like Astro now. Summons are pretty flexible so you can rotate your summons based on different phases. Like, use ifrit in the phase where you don't have to do mechanics and save titan for the moving phase. For Garuda I would recommend saving swiftcast for Splitstream. You can yourself choose the order you wanna use certain summons. You just have to use everything in 45 sec before your Bahamut/Phoenix is back up.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Summoner mobility is overall pretty good. You have only 1.5sec cast times so you can slidecast after 1 second and move 1.5sec after each cast like Astro now.

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While that's pretty good for weaving, I'd worry it would have "the red mage" problem - where sure dualcast is great for getting a bit of mobility, but starts to suck if you need to move for more than a GCD.

Whereas current ruin 4 gives you 8 GCDs of free movement every minute (separate from DWT and FBT), and while you do want to have 4 stacks going into bahamut, it's otherwise pretty free about how you use it. So I guess what I'm wondering is if the new summoner will get somewhere equivalent to 8 GCDs mobility per minute that you don't need to be in a specific primal phase for, or if you'll always have to save it for any time you might need more than a GCD or two's worth of movement...

Ruin 3 has a 1.5 cast time. All of your ruin/tri-disaster skills for both Bahamut and Phoenix are instant. All of the earth elemental spells are instant, so is mountain buster. All of the fire spells have a longer cast time, Ifrit's melee combo is instant. Garuda's Slipstream has a long cast but all your elemental spells are instant.

So effectively, we'll probably be hardcasting 3-4 spells a minute depending on swiftcast availability

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

While that's pretty good for weaving, I'd worry it would have "the red mage" problem - where sure dualcast is great for getting a bit of mobility, but starts to suck if you need to move for more than a GCD.

Whereas current ruin 4 gives you 8 GCDs of free movement every minute (separate from DWT and FBT), and while you do want to have 4 stacks going into bahamut, it's otherwise pretty free about how you use it. So I guess what I'm wondering is if the new summoner will get somewhere equivalent to 8 GCDs mobility per minute that you don't need to be in a specific primal phase for, or if you'll always have to save it for any time you might need more than a GCD or two's worth of movement...

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From what I read about the SMN abilities in general, it seems more like your Attunements are what give you your mobility going into EW, similar to how Egis and Ruin 4 did. I think generally they were playing with this kind of system with Phoenix to see if it was feasible to work with before changing it up after 5.2 with the Egi Rework during Titan Savage days.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

but starts to suck if you need to move for more than a GCD.

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This is called "playing a caster."

Join us on #TeamMelee, brother!

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

This is called "playing a caster."

Join us on #TeamMelee, brother!

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Sorry, I'll always be some kind of ranged at heart. If SMN ends up too hardcasty, I'll just go back to physical ranged.

But it sounds like there won't be too much of it, so there is yet hope.

So with new 6.0, you will have phrases of mobility. Mainly during titan and your demi summons phrases.
You also get movement during your summons also since they are instant and on the gcd.
Depending on final potency, we will either hold ruin4 for movement, use it during our opener/burst window, or not use it at all if we don't need to move.
The same thing with Titan. While at the moment it is the strongest single target DPS, it is the most mobile of the phrases, and since most raid bosses do a raid aoe follow by a movement mechanic, we will rarely use titan in the opener.

What you want to think of 6.0 smn is much like blm. Instead of the logic of using triplecast and procs, we will be applying that logic to our summons.
So you're going to change the rotations of your summons each minute to maintain uptime and movement when needed.
Smn is still more mobile since demi phrases are nothing but instant casts and you should never delay those.

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

So with new 6.0, you will have phrases of mobility. Mainly during titan and your demi summons phrases.
You also get movement during your summons also since they are instant and on the gcd.
Depending on final potency, we will either hold ruin4 for movement, use it during our opener/burst window, or not use it at all if we don't need to move.
The same thing with Titan. While at the moment it is the strongest single target DPS, it is the most mobile of the phrases, and since most raid bosses do a raid aoe follow by a movement mechanic, we will rarely use titan in the opener.

What you want to think of 6.0 smn is much like blm. Instead of the logic of using triplecast and procs, we will be applying that logic to our summons.
So you're going to change the rotations of your summons each minute to maintain uptime and movement when needed.
Smn is still more mobile since demi phrases are nothing but instant casts and you should never delay those.

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Well, that's a bit disappointing. But hopefully there's enough of it that it won't feel too bad for me. Anyways, thanks for explaining in detail.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Summoner mobility is overall pretty good. You have only 1.5sec cast times so you can slidecast after 1 second and move 1.5sec after each cast like Astro now. Summons are pretty flexible so you can rotate your summons based on different phases. Like, use ifrit in the phase where you don't have to do mechanics and save titan for the moving phase. For Garuda I would recommend saving swiftcast for Splitstream. You can yourself choose the order you wanna use certain summons. You just have to use everything in 45 sec before your Bahamut/Phoenix is back up.

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Well the problem with reducing ruin3 cast time is that we will rarely use it unless we die I'm guessing.
We will be mostly using gem shine. Only time we will be pressing ruin3 is during our demi summons when they are different spells and instant

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

Well the problem with reducing ruin3 cast time is that we will rarely use it unless we die I'm guessing.
We will be mostly using gem shine. Only time we will be pressing ruin3 is during our demi summons when they are different spells and instant

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How that is problem once you can replace 1.5sec cast to instant lol and only two gem shines per minute require cast time.

Because you are misunderstanding what I meant. The reduction of ruin3 cast time is literally pointless since we will most likely never use it outside of our prepull cast.

You'll be entirely mobile during both demis, Titan, and like 80% of Garuda. Likely Swiftcast will be used for one of the 2 Ifrit long casts before the instant melee combo. Summoner won't even be a little bit heavy on hardcasts, you'll be able to move freely for the bulk of the 2min cycle. Might even be able to fire off the Ruin 4s exclusively in raid buff windows if timings work out, because of all the on-demand mobility baked in to the entire kit.

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Originally Posted by KaerisKlyne

Might even be able to fire off the Ruin 4s exclusively in raid buff windows if timings work out, because of all the on-demand mobility baked in to the entire kit.

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While I hope you're right overall, this in particular definitely won't happen. Ruin 4 is going to a 60s CD with no charges.

But, I'm not really sure that I buy ruin 3 will never or almost-never be used anyways. You only get 2~4 charges of the primal spells, and the devs said it's still intended to be filler...

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

While I hope you're right overall, this in particular definitely won't happen. Ruin 4 is going to a 60s CD with no charges.

But, I'm not really sure that I buy ruin 3 will never or almost-never be used anyways. You only get 2~4 charges of the primal spells, and the devs said it's still intended to be filler...

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If you have absolutely no spellspeed and do not use swiftcast on either of the two Ruby Rites/Catastrophes or on Slipstream and you play perfectly without interrupting anything or clipping any gcds you will be out of the gem phase in 29.6 seconds, if I did the math correctly. Bahamut and Phoenix both last 20 seconds and their cooldowns start as soon as you summon them.

Your entire gem+demi-summon phase last 49.6 seconds at 0 spellspeed and if you have played perfectly you will, in theory, have up to 10.4 seconds of downtime before Bahamut or Phoenix are back up and that is when you use Ruin 3/Tri-Disaster as filler and also when you weave Searing Light and/or Radiant Aegis. That filler time shrinks the longer you're in the gem phase or you accidently mess up during it. And remember, that is at 0 spellspeed and not using swiftcast on anything. Summon Bahamut and Phoenix will be considered spells in EW, unless they change it before release, and their cooldowns will scale off your spellspeed.

If I am wrong someone please correct me.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

While I hope you're right overall, this in particular definitely won't happen. Ruin 4 is going to a 60s CD with no charges.

But, I'm not really sure that I buy ruin 3 will never or almost-never be used anyways. You only get 2~4 charges of the primal spells, and the devs said it's still intended to be filler...

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You spend around 53 seconds per minute in demi/attunements. The remaining time is when you can use Ruin 3. You'll also likely use Searing Light during this time to buff your next demi. And Ruin 4 use will likely depend on the encounter.

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Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina

If you have absolutely no spellspeed and do not use swiftcast on either of the two Ruby Rites/Catastrophes or on Slipstream and you play perfectly without interrupting anything or clipping any gcds you will be out of the gem phase in 29.6 seconds, if I did the math correctly. Bahamut and Phoenix both last 20 seconds and their cooldowns start as soon as you summon them.

Your entire gem+demi-summon phase last 49.6 seconds at 0 spellspeed and if you have played perfectly you will, in theory, have up to 10.4 seconds of downtime before Bahamut or Phoenix are back up and that is when you use Ruin 3/Tri-Disaster as filler and also when you weave Searing Light and/or Radiant Aegis. That filler time shrinks the longer you're in the gem phase or you accidently mess up during it. And remember, that is at 0 spellspeed and not using swiftcast on anything. Summon Bahamut and Phoenix will be considered spells in EW, unless they change it before release, and their cooldowns will scale off your spellspeed.

If I am wrong someone please correct me.

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Lets count again if you have 0 spell speed

20 sec is actually tooltip error. Bahamut/Phoenix will last only 15 seconds, so primal window will most likely last 45 seconds

Garuda Splitstream have 3.5sec recast time(this is actually pointless Swiftcast because recast time is longer than cast time? Need testing)

Garuda 3.5sec Splitstream, 2.5sec summon, 1.5sec x 4 Emerald Rite = 13 sec

Titan 2.5sec summon, 2.5sec x 4 Topaz Rite = 12.5sec

Ifrit 2.5sec summon, 2.5sec x 2 combo, 2.8sec x 2 Ruby Rite = 13.1 sec (you save 0.3sec if you Swiftcast Ruby Rite)

Overall primals 38.6sec
Primals + demi window + Ruin 4 = 56.1 sec

You only have to cast 1 - 2 ruin 3 in whole rotation depending on spell speed. Spell speed actually reduce your demi cooldown too?

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Lets count again if you have 0 spell speed

20 sec is actually tooltip error. Bahamut/Phoenix will last only 15 seconds, so primal window will most likely last 45 seconds

Garuda Splitstream have 3.5sec recast time(this is actually pointless Swiftcast because recast time is longer than cast time? Need testing)

Garuda 3.5sec Splitstream, 2.5sec summon, 1.5sec x 4 Emerald Rite = 13 sec

Titan 2.5sec summon, 2.5sec x 4 Topaz Rite = 12.5sec

Ifrit 2.5sec summon, 2.5sec x 2 combo, 2.8sec x 2 Ruby Rite = 13.1 sec (you save 0.3sec if you Swiftcast Ruby Rite)

Overall primals 38.6sec
Primals + demi window + Ruin 4 = 56.1 sec

You only have to cast 1 - 2 ruin 3 in whole rotation depending on spell speed. Spell speed actually reduce your demi cooldown too?

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Oof, did not account for nor realize the gem summons were spells too or the tooltip error. Messing up is even more punishing.

Unless the tooltips are wrong again, the demi-summons are labeled as spells and are affected by spellspeed unless that has changed since the media tour. In Summoner footage you can see the recast for Bahamut and Phoenix are 58.02 seconds and are on the gcd. Emerald Rite and Emerald Catastrophe don't appear to be affected by spellspeed as they were still at 1.5 recast times.

It will be interesting to see what SMN's BiS stats will be with spellspeed affecting the cooldown of Aethercharge/Dreadwyrm Trance/Summon Bahamut and Phoenix, unless it's been changed.

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how much is the new summoner's mobility tied to specific phases? Does it have OK/good "general mobility"/mobility options outside of specific phases?

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Ifrit is the least mobile phase with 2 long cast time spells and a melee charge + attack.

Garuda is next with one long cast time spell.

You have about 1 minute to go through all 3 normal summons and attunement (required for Ifrit's casted spells) lasts 30s while favor (required for Garuda's cast) I'm pretty sure lasts until either used or you summon something else. So that's 3 long casts per minute with a lot of flexibility for when you can cast them.

And that's really all SMN should have to worry about. Most everything else is instant and Ruin 3 has a short cast time - optimal slide-casting will have you moving for 1.5s of each 2.5s gcd while spamming it.

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Ruin 4 is going to a 60s CD with no charges.

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Yep and all we have to do is make sure it's spent outside of a demi phase and before Energy Drain comes back up.

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20 sec is actually tooltip error. Bahamut/Phoenix will last only 15 seconds, so primal window will most likely last 45 seconds

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Does the cd for demis start ticking on use or after it's gone? And if it's on use I wonder if it'd be better to hold anyway since raid buffs are almost all at 1 or 2 minutes now and if using a demi every 45s it'd take 4 of them to get back on track with 1 min cd buffs, you'd miss the 2 min cd buffs. Guess that'll depend on the potency difference between demis and other summons.

Hmm. Ok, this all reassures me a lot. Thanks for posting the detailed breakdowns.