What it says on the tin. I don't recall if anything's been said one way or the other in canon about this*, but now that we've learned how to undo tempering in others by basically resetting their elemental aether balance, are we in general agreement that that's what happened with Hades at the end of our fight? He was the "darkness to your light", as Y'shtola puts it; which implies the reverse is true as well. And, in the end, he could say "remember us" with a smile on his face and actually let go of his mission, which I don't think he could have done if tempered.
EDIT: Further thought - When Elidibus says "Would that I had been there to offer correction" regarding Hades' change of heart in the end, by "offer correction" could he mean re-temper him? Given his role as Zodiark's heart, theoretically he could have done that. Though maybe not, cus if he could temper people at will, you'd think he'd do so. SO I dunno. Just speculating.
EDIT 2: I also don't think Hades could have helped us fight Elidibus if he was still tempered. Though to be fair, the exact nature of what came to help us is still a question, so I'm not sure if it counts as evidence at the moment.
*(I do feel like this is something that may have been discussed in-game and I'm just not remembering it, so please don't hesitate to just cite at me if I'm wrong.)
Did we reverse Emet's tempering at the end?
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10-23-2021, 08:38 AMAlleluiaDid we reverse Emet's tempering at the end?
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10-23-2021, 09:59 AMTheMightyMollusk
Unlikely. Curing tempering requires careful focus and an abundance of aether. We were on the verge of turning into a Lightwarden while the Scions are getting smacked around behind us, then we threw an axe through his chest.
My take is that his final "Remember us" line is just a tired old man accepting his demise and asking that the glories of his people not be lost to time. Considering what happens to Elidibus, it's certainly a worthwhile thing to ask. Especially if Emet knew about Elidibus's true nature beforehand.
As for Elidibus's line about "correction", he probably just means helping Emet to course-correct and not get killed. It was kind of a running thing that the three Unsundered didn't always see eye to eye and each thought their own path was the best. -
10-23-2021, 10:53 AMCleretic
What we did pretty clearly didn't even remotely resemble the actual cure for tempering that was later discovered, too, so I'm gonna say no, we definitely didn't.
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10-23-2021, 11:00 AMCilia
His bath in the Lifestream probably did it, but there's nothing suggesting Emet was cured of his tempering prior.
In regards to Elidibus "offering correction," I'm pretty sure he just meant "give a counseling session" to get him back on the "proper path." By letting go of his mission he effectively betrayed the Ascians; Elidibus was for most intents and purposes the Ascians' handler, though he generally left Emet alone because they were more peers than the lesser Ascians and he was effective on his own.
In regards to him helping us during the final showdown with Elidibus, he had a bath in the Lifestream to cure his tempering; further he was (probably) helping Elidibus (via mercy kill) as much as if not more than us. While the Ascians were tempered, they did seem to largely retain their agency. -
10-23-2021, 11:01 AMWhiteArchmage
Isn't there kind of precedent? When Nael/Eula recovers her mind right before her final death? And Louisoix does the same, only having enough energy to manifest and show his grandchildren (and us) the Truth of the Calamity (and sorta bathing us in Phoenix aether even though the twins decide not to use it to prevent Phoenix from being resummoned, SMN mains everywhere look at that scene nervously). But there seems like in a person's (especially one who is basically aether) dying moments they are released from Tempering.
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10-23-2021, 11:13 AMRosenstrauch
I'd like to think we did, and it's why he jumped at the opportunity to help us later on. But AFAIK, prior to 5.4 the only ways to remove an individual's tempering was to either be the primal who tempered them in the first place and willfully release them (see: Louisoix and Darnus) or to kill them, allowing their soul to reenter the aetherial sea where their aether would be rebalanced and their memories shorn from them. So if we did untemper him, it was most likely because of the latter.
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10-23-2021, 11:16 AMAlleluiaQuote:
Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk
I think injecting him with a huge amount of light aether, thus countering his imbalance towards darkness, is exactly the same mechanic our cure for tempering uses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleretic
The concentration and carefulness that we display with the normal cure process later on is cus we're doing it on purpose now, and we actually want the people we're curing to live afterwards. But neither of those things has to be true for the actual aetheric rebalancing that breaks tempering to occur. That's just something akin to a chemical reaction. If you have the necessary components of it present, it'll happen.
Him accepting his loss and smiling at us when we agree to remember them seems like it indicates he's no longer being compelled to aide Zodiark's return. He's accepted the plan has fallen through and its not happening. I think that's suggestive that he's no longer tempered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
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10-23-2021, 11:24 AMAlleluiaThe latter wouldn't work with Zodiark, though, I don't think. Cus when the Ascians raise a soul shard of one of the Convocation to "full ascian" status, they're still tempered to Zodiark's will from back when their souls summoned him as unsundered ancients.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch
At least, I think so. I guess, in theory, they could be passing the tempering on to them via the soul stones? Or maybe re-tempering them somehow after they elevate them? Though I dunno how, since Zodiark is dormant. If Elidibus can temper for Zodiark, then that could explain it, but if he could do that you'd think he'd just go around tempering everyone and their mother and gain a million fellow zodiark followers to carry out their plans.
Its a simpler explanation that the tempering just carries through from their days as ancients, though, so I'm leaning towards that at the moment.
True, though they're both weird cases of being already dead by the time we defeat them. We didn't hit them with any specific blast of aether, but it could be that having one foot basically already in the lifestream was what allowed them to rebalance and shake off their tempering, and our defeat of them in battle was just what allowed it the opportunity to happen? I can't think of an example of someone who is definitively alive and has clearly come back to themselves when we defeated them. Unless you count people who *were* the primals, like Yotsuyu and Ysale, but then you can argue they were never tempered in the first place to anything other than their own wills, so there was essentially nothing to fix.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage
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10-23-2021, 02:32 PMClereticUhm... no, not with tempering. Theoretically a pull like that might've un-Voidsented the mind of something like Diabolos, since with sin eaters and voidsent it's just a gross imbalance between light and dark.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleluia
With tempering it's both a gross imbalance and a dilution of the self, and that's not something you could just brute-force with, say, cramming an apocalypse's worth of light in someone's chest. Fixing the sense of self without the aetheric imbalance is going to cause an even more dangerous fanatic, fixing the aetheric imbalance without the sense of self is going to leave someone unsure of their own identity (and is probably SUPER susceptible to additional tempering).
We've not seen a great amount from Emet post-axe-through-the-chest, but I would not describe his lines afterwards, in-game or in that one Tales from the Shadows, as especially fanatical or lacking in self-identity. So not only do I think we didn't cure him of tempering (because that requires a two-dimensional approach, that we were... definitely not doing at the time), we didn't even fail to cure him. We just killed the guy.
Granted, it's a little muddied by the fact Zodiark is a primal of dark aether, and that dilution was through umbral/light aether. But since we do still know that somehow there is a difference between pure dark tempering and voidsent (if not what exactly that difference is), we can still assume it's a two-dimensional thing. -
10-24-2021, 03:33 AMTheMightyMolluskIt's stated that the cure for tempering won't work on someone whose aether is so unbalanced that it's caused physical mutations. It only worked on Halric and the rest of the patients at the Inn at Journey's End because they hadn't fully turned and the destruction of the Lightwardens meant they weren't being pushed further. Full voidesent and sin eaters are out of luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleretic
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10-24-2021, 07:34 AMYianKutkuI remember the specific wording being that those who are "too far gone" cannot be cured by our method of anti-tempering, and that one sign of being "too far gone" is physical mutations. Which leaves open the possibility of people who don't show any physical mutations (yet), but are still considered "too far gone" based on some unknown criteria.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk
I interpret that line to be a Doylistic excuse (in an understandable way) to explain why some people might not be curable for Plot Reasons, just in case the narrative needs someone like that while pre-empting us from going "but what about the cure we discovered". -
10-24-2021, 10:45 AMClereticYeah, it's ultimately this, and it's why we'll never see this really fully explored or challenged. It's how they keep tempering being a problem in a world where we can cure it in some way. Which is great, because honestly I found tempering interesting as something that couldn't be undone so easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by YianKutku
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10-24-2021, 01:16 PMJojoya
I doubt what we did cured his tempering. If a Blade of Light is all that was needed, wouldn't Nabriales and Igeyorhm likewise have changed at the very end instead of protesting their fate? Granted those Blades weren't of the same strength but then Nabriales and Igeyorhm were only shards, not unsundered.
Passage into the Lifestream after death would cure tempering, though, since the soul gets immersed in pure aether. If it didn't, there would be no need for the Ascians to use the dark crystals to avoid entry into the Lifestream when their bodies die. Their compatriots, mainly Emet-Selch, would be able to pluck them right back out intact. Considering it's highly unlikely only the Convocation was tempered by Zodiark after his summoning, there should be open Zodiark worship from all the reborn tempered souls. Gaia would have been a very different person if she had been reborn tempered and wouldn't have struggled against the dark other calling out to her.
I don't think that has anything to do with the state of his tempering. He did tell us at one point that Ascians are still capable of normal emotions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleluia
Far more likely the smile was to acknowledge a rediscovered old friend who would remember him after he's gone. -
10-25-2021, 01:09 AMvormela
They are so good with layered stories and keeping things open-ended that I think one of the interpretations of "shadowbringer" is that we brought shadow to the ascians.
I think we de-ascianed him and brought him a shadow, a legacy, and maybe untempered him at the same time. I feel like there are multiple layers of meaning behind their choice of name kind of like there were with Heavensward. I have seen that Ascians not having shadows is very important to the writers.
I saw the same things the people on here that always post saw, and I have a hard time thinking that they wrote this character without knowing how "popular" he would become. That people might think they are bringing him back from the dead against their will and forcing him on people is bizarre to me.
I don't know what the big division is between the fandom/creative writing group of people and the lorekeepers group but this character seems to polarize the two groups. It is very interesting to me as someone who started playing the game this year. Maybe it is the battle between storytelling vs lore and exists in multiple fandom communities--I honestly have no idea but I feel like this character and whether we untempered him is like one of the community-defining debates.
I don't really think the writers intended the abject disgust/dislike for this character after the depth they went into in Shadowbringers but they did leave stuff open-ended about the relationship we might have had with this character and how our previous incarnation isn't necessarily the same person we are now.
Whether you love him or not, it is really hard to not appreciate a character like this who is competing with the Azim Steppe lady in a contest of who can dump the most lore on us.
There's a post now about being sad for Emet-Selch's death--I was really sad, too. I think the twins' abruptness after his death and everyone's general attitude helped alienate us a little bit from the scions. And then 5.3 happened. The guy delivered us a love poem for gods' sake.
I'm still not really sure any of them know we have a connection to these people or hold a seat on their council. I feel like our ascian symbol is going to be like the archon symbol -- we are going to have to get the band back together in some way and our allegiance to the scions will be challenged. I think it already is, but I have been naturally a Hydaelyn questioner this whole time because the first scene of the game turned me off of it ("ugh, new age crystal worship..." then it turned out all the cool girls were mineralogists or miners and I was like, okay, that is more like it :D ). -
10-25-2021, 01:09 AMvormela
(ctd)
It is really cool how people can see the same things and be so convinced their view is the right one. I think how we perceive this new girl will show us a lot of how far we've come in getting away from being tempered. I think we were tempered. I know it's not a viewpoint a lot of people here have, but I think that's the beauty of the storytelling. They could just straight-out go that route and it would make sense, like someone who is brought up in a religious family and has to come to terms with their past (not that either "side" necessarily is correct).
I am posting this as my thoughts and not necessarily anything canon or communally accepted. I am a new person who loves the story and the worldbuilding. I'm replaying through ShB now. I have never played a Final Fantasy game before this. It is important that more than 3 people post here with their ideas because it might impact the direction of the storytelling. And we need more characters like this who are divisive.
ETA: Would also be interested to see if there is the same divide in other language forums. -
10-25-2021, 08:57 AMVeloran
Yoshida (and Y'shtola's dialog after the fight) does imply that Emet is the one that fixed WoL's aetherial imbalance by counteracting all the Lightwarden's Light, so it's not unreasonable to think that the same happened in reverse. However I do think that when we consider his actions before the trial, the question of his tempering and what effect that actually had on him isn't so easily answered.
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10-25-2021, 10:58 AMCiliaIt's actually all but said verbatim that the PC burned off the Lightwardens' corruption by making a Blade of Light to strike down Emet-Selch, not the result of anything he did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veloran
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10-25-2021, 11:11 AMVeloranYoshida's quote on the subject.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
It seems to me that WoL's aether reaching equilibrium wasn't purely a result of using it up in the battle, but rather Emet-Selch's doing as well, most likely intentionally. After all, even if WoL were to expend all the excess Light, that wouldn't really do anything to fix how badly your aether had been umbrally attuned - The innate corruption would still persist. The only thing that could counteract that and restore WoL to normality would be a similarly massive influx of Dark, astral aether. Y'shtola says as much in the cutscene after the battle, that Hades was the "dark to your light."Quote:
But, I would like to bring your attention to Y'shtola's lines after clearing the Hades trial. She mentioned how tattered the WoL's aether was from the rampaging Light that it was as though, the Darkness had completely eliminated it all. Hades is a 'true-human', who fought with his all against the 'one who wants to save the world', clashing all of his Darkness against them. In opposition, the WoL fought back with all the strength of the Light, vanquishing large amounts of it in the process. This was also conveyed in Hades' lines during the trial, and as well as after clearing it, in the cutscene where Light and Dark clashed at each other. As a result, perhaps the Light and Dark residing inside of WoL had reached an equilibrium? Meaning Emet-Selch had reached a certain conclusion..... So, I'd like you to take another look at those scenes, and perhaps you may reach a different interpretation. But of course, I can't quite say that this is THE answer.
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10-27-2021, 01:41 AMLauront
Indeed. Also the way Ryne had phrased it was addressing the fact that what had happened had gone beyond correcting the overflow of light in the MC, and had repaired the tears in the soul which was breaking apart under the weight of the aether, i.e. a separate thing. So insofar as the balance of energy is concerned, Yoshida's answer makes sense to me.
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10-27-2021, 03:26 AMGeriel
Doesn't Emet basically say himself that his tempering is cured?
"Now my charms are all o'erthrown,
And what strength I have's mine own"
To me, that says the charms (or spell, or geas) that were on him are overthrown, ie. gone. And his remaining power is his to do with as he sees fit. He is no longer compelled to do the will of Zodiark.
I could be wrong, but it seems pretty clear to me. -
10-27-2021, 04:29 AMWhiteArchmageI... Jeez, I don't know how to take that. Because OUT OF UNIVERSE, it's a direct reference to Prospero's final monologue in The Tempest. Especially with the other references to the work in 5.0 (The Tempest itself, the Caliban Gorge, The Trinculo Shelf, and I think Prospero himself is referenced). The charms mentioned in the monologue are Prospero's charms over the island and those that were thrown there by his own design.Quote:
Originally Posted by Geriel
Full monologe on the spoiler box
Now my charms are all o'erthrown,
And what strength I have's mine own,
Which is most faint: now, 'tis true,
I must be here confined by you,
Or sent to Naples. Let me not,
Since I have my dukedom got
And pardon'd the deceiver, dwell
In this bare island by your spell;
But release me from my bands
With the help of your good hands:
Gentle breath of yours my sails
Must fill, or else my project fails,
Which was to please. Now I want
Spirits to enforce, art to enchant,
And my ending is despair,
Unless I be relieved by prayer,
Which pierces so that it assaults
Mercy itself and frees all faults.
As you from crimes would pardon'd be,
Let your indulgence set me free.
IN-UNIVERSE... I don't know... (though, honestly, props to whoever wrote the poem in Ere Our Curtain Falls while maintaining the cadence and changing the rhyme-ok, no one cares). It COULD certainly mean Hades is left without any of his magicks, or it could mean he's no longer charmed (so tempered). I am of the belief that Hades is no longer tempered while in the Lifestream (hence, why he saves us from Elidibus' confinement), and the poem itself is refering to US the WoL as the ones who will win the future. -
10-27-2021, 10:52 PMKageTokage
Something that I still don't quite get about the Ascians in general is how they're able to cheat death to varying degrees by persisting without a physical form.
We know the Echo is involved to a degree, but there's no indication the Ancients as a whole possessed the same ability despite being several magnitudes more powerful, yet even some of the weaker Ascians are able to body hop freely if given the chance.
Is it perhaps something Zodiark did in a bid to ensure his followers would be able to watch over the star for time eternal? This line from one of the Convocation's crystals recorded immediately after Zodiark's summoning makes me wonder, anyhow: "I feel my soul turning. Slowly but irrevocably. And the power I wield begins to seem terrible... But this is right. It is right." -
10-28-2021, 05:11 AMLineageRazorOne thing to consider: What reason would the original Ancients have to do so? They lived in a peaceful society, without any monsters murdering them right and left until the very end. They had no occasion to even try doing such a thing. Additionally (and this is speculation), it may be more difficult or impossible to possess the bodies of unsundered beings, so the bodiless spirits would have no place to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by KageTokage
I suspect that shedding the physical form was something that was developed at the last minute, out of desperation - likely just before or during the moment Hydaelyn sundered the world, and in a desperate gambit to avoid being sundered themselves. Only Lahabrea and Emet-Selch were able to do so (and Elidibus, maybe? He's an odd case, being basically a Primal himself). They then taught the skill to Ascians that they raised later.
Just speculation, but I think it makes sense. -
10-28-2021, 08:04 PMVyrerus
To answer OP: Yes, we untempered Hades, because we killed him by shattering his soul. After that there is no way for it to resist the Lifestream, and so barring the unexpected, he should eventually be reborn as someone else(or possibly alternatively, his aether will go on to birth new souls for the planet and he is completely dead).
It's a natural power of the Echo, which we've learned is tied to all Amaurotine souls. The difficulty of doing it depends on the soul of the person you are trying to overtake. If their soul is at parity with yours, then it's a struggle, and you may fail. If their soul is weaker, then they are completely overwhelmed.Quote:
Originally Posted by KageTokage
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10-29-2021, 01:16 AMKageTokage
I suppose there may simply be a difference between having the Echo and "mastering" it as the sahagin elder and Zenos claimed to have done; which may have extended even to the Ancients despite seemingly being possessed of unfathomably greater power then any sundered individual.
The Ancients also didn't seem terribly fearful of death given their willingness to sacrifice themselves for the greater good as seen with both Quetzlcotl's summoner and Zodiark...though again, we don't know exactly how factual Emet Selch's likely biased interpretation of Amaurot and its people was. -
10-29-2021, 04:31 AMnighttimebunnyGreat point. I think we definitely saved him in a way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Geriel
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11-21-2021, 04:42 AMatheistcanuck
He also comes back in 5.3 and saves us from the rift after Elidibus put us there, which I don't think he would have been able to act against Elidibus even 'for his own good' if he was still tempered. So by that point I would say he was definitely untempered, and I think he was likely untempered after the fight in 5.0.