6.0 Endwalker Ninja Raiju issues

Ninja's new lvl90 skill Raiju comes in two parts, Fleeting Raiju and Forked Raiju. Both of them must be used right after each Raiton as part of the new three part combo or you will lose them.
Using Throwing Dagger removes the Raiju Ready buff.
Both Raiju are gap closers.

These are both issues that will cause many problems in high end content on NIN.
For starters, Ninjas optimal opener includes using all of our Raitons and also TenChiJin in the first 20 seconds of the fight but because of Raiju we now have to use 6 gap closers during this short duration and this pattern will continue throughout the fight causing us to gap close 4 times every 60 seconds with 2 more every 120 seconds for a total of 6.

I repeat, that is a total of 4 or 6 every minute.

It stands to reason that if any mechanics were to show up at all during the time that we use our burst that make us move then we will not be able to use Raiton for uptime anymore due to its combo actions forcing us to jump to the boss twice in a row and we cannot use Throwing Dagger after Raiton because it will cancel the Raiju Ready buff despite Yoshida saying that melees ranged attacks will no longer break combos.

I ask for a major change to Raiju as in its current state it will completely ruin the point of even having ranged GCDs like Raiton. Either remove all gap closers from the Raiju or remove the second one at a bare minimum. Another way to at least make them less limiting is allow us to delay them like Ruin 4 stacks or make them OGCDs that we can use when we want.

Ninja is NOT Dragoon. Do not give us more jumping skills than they have, jumping is Dragoons identity and Ninjas is its ninjutsu and the free movement that it brings. In its current state come Endwalker, Ninja will be the new floor tank because of this skill. Please fix this before a repeat of 5.0 happens.

To continue, did we not learn that gap closers and jump backs with potency are just in general not a good idea? They have long caused many other classes problems but this time Ninja is the first class to get them as GCDs instead of OGCDs. On top of that, they're a combo skill that is breakable by using literally any other weaponskill so we cannot hold them when it is dangerous to use them or we will lose them completely.

There's already a thread making the same point.

They're a GCD.
If they're more potent than Aeolian Edge, then use them.
If they're not, then don't use them.

You're not forced to use them just because they disappear if you don't.
That's like saying you're forced to use Freecure when it procs...

You still have Shukuchi as the regular gap closer.
These are BONUS gap closers.
More gap closing = more melee uptime.

I'm not seeing the issue at all.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

They're a GCD.
If they're more potent than Aeolian Edge, then use them.
If they're not, then don't use them.

You're not forced to use them just because they disappear if you don't.
That's like saying you're forced to use Freecure when it procs...

You still have Shukuchi as the regular gap closer.
These are BONUS gap closers.
More gap closing = more melee uptime.

I'm not seeing the issue at all.

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They’re more potency than the melee combo and still trigger Bunshin so the problem is that you’ll always have to use them during TA. In windows outside of it they will be awkward but can be managed through timing. I do agree they’re terrible because they’re forced, on the GCD, and have to be used back to back. The former is one of the reasons I dislike Dragoon in particular, the latter is egregious due to taking away from that timing by making Raiton more strict in alignment. And they make weaving harder.

I’d personally much rather they reset Shukichi like Raiton does or allow you to have more Ranged uptime, if I were to pick between any of those options.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

They’re more potency than the melee combo and still trigger Bunshin so the problem is that you’ll always have to use them during TA. In windows outside of it they will be awkward but can be managed through timing. I do agree they’re terrible because they’re forced, on the GCD, and have to be used back to back. The former is one of the reasons I dislike Dragoon in particular, the latter is egregious due to taking away from that timing by making Raiton more strict in alignment. And they make weaving harder.

I’d personally much rather they reset Shukichi like Raiton does or allow you to have more Ranged uptime, if I were to pick between any of those options.

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Why would you not use them?
They're more potent weaponskills.
Using them means you're in weapons range.
There's no reason not to use them.

Its very obvious you have no idea what you're saying and clearly do not play Ninja in end game content or you would not be saying "bonus gapclosers".

Ninja being forced to use these for damage will put you into a position where you use it and die or you don't use it at all, lose it and lose dps.

Them being higher potency than normal GCDs means we need to use them to maximize our dps but mechanics that force max melee or require strict movement will stop us from using them and in turn stop us from using all of our burst.

In savage fights you do not want to gap close when you don't need to because they will often lead to death and there are often times where you will have to delay a gap closer. But Raiju cannot be delayed because its a combo skill from everything in our burst phase.

Raiju is nothing like freecure and you will not get more melee uptime from using raiju vs not using it because you should never be using raiton away from boss since they're used during your trick attack which requires melee range.

You very obviously think that you can just use raiju whenever you feel like it but you will not be clearing savage content when it has dps checks and you are not doing enough damage because you don't use raiton inside trick and can't use raiju because of mechanics aligning with burst phase.

They're not bonus gap closers because we never needed more gap closers to begin with, they're literally the biggest problem ninja has ever had.

You say "Why would you not use them?" Because they can and will cause you to die to mechanics.
There is so many reasons that could cause you to be unable to use them. E12S ramuh, shiva junction, titan junction, lions, every single mechanic in part 2 of E12S and that is just 1 fight. Each of your burst phases line up with a mechanic and you are forced to use them, you will not be able to do that anymore in Endwalker because using 4 or 6 raiju will not be possible during mechanics. You have to stay at MAXIMUM melee and gap closers bring you to MINIMUM melee which will kill you.

If you have never done endgame content before then don't speak of it like that because in normal content it literally doesn't matter what you do. You could literally never use raiju in normal content and it wouldn't matter whatsoever or you could use it every time and kill yourself 4 times a dungeon and it once again wouldn't matter other than making the clear a bit slower. Savage and Ultimate content you cannot do this. You cannot be killing yourself with your own skills and you cannot ignore raiju because ninja is being designed around using it in order to do damage. This means we are forced to use it as much as we possibly can and yet mechanics will stop us from using it.

Its poorly designed and it completely hinders ninja which used to be the melee class with the most free movement. Now its more limited than dragoon which is literally known as the floor tank BECAUSE of its BONUS GAPCLOSERS as you call them.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Why would you not use them?

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Big glowing AoE circle around the boss that you don't want to rush into.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Big glowing AoE circle around the boss that you don't want to rush into.

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Then you use another Raiton and they're still available 1 GCD later?
If you're out of range, you're not using your GCD weaponskills anyway.
I very, very rarely need to use Throwing Daggers, I nearly always have a Raiton ready for any melee downtime, which is usually no more than 2 GCDs.

And from what we've seen, the Raiju don't have animation lock. So it should be a non-issue, and not at all comparable to DRG.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Then you use another Raiton and they're still available 1 GCD later?
If you're out of range, you're not using your GCD weaponskills anyway.
I very, very rarely need to use Throwing Daggers, I nearly always have a Raiton ready for any melee downtime, which is usually no more than 2 GCDs.

And from what we've seen, the Raiju don't have animation lock. So it should be a non-issue, and not at all comparable to DRG.

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If you were to use Raiton to move out of the AoE, you would still have to wait for the AoE to finish resolving/casting before moving back in into melee range. In a big AoE, it usually requires 2 Raitons back to back if you don't want to lose GCD uptime.

The current Raiju implementation implies getting Raiju Ready for Forked Raiju and Fleeting Raiju is a combo action on each other, but not a stackable buff. So... you would lose a raiju combo (2 skills) for using 2 Raitons in a row. In other words, you're forced to take damage from AoE if you use Raiton to move out while waiting for the AoE to finish casting you lose a GCD otherwise. It's not as flexible as the current system as long as Raiju ready prevents the next weaponskill or doesn't give a stacking buff.

Plus, if you were to use TCJ, you could always use Raiton to move out immediately after if an AoE centered to the boss is coming. With the new implementation, you lose a Raiju ready stack from TCJ if you use Raiton to move out after, which turns into a DPS loss, unless you eat the mechanic.

I wish Raiju and Forked Raiju were actually a long range combo instead of having a gap-closer, this would probably mend the forced movement, wich seems to be the biggest issue of the new action.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

I wish Raiju and Forked Raiju were actually a long range combo instead of having a gap-closer, this would probably mend the forced movement, wich seems to be the biggest issue of the new action.

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lighting shurikeen :D

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

If you were to use Raiton to move out of the AoE,

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How does Raiton help you move out of an AOE? Did you mean use it while out of the AOE?

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Originally Posted by SamSmoot

How does Raiton help you move out of an AOE? Did you mean use it while out of the AOE?

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You can use mudras and Ninjutsu while moving. I assume that's what they mean.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Then you use another Raiton and they're still available 1 GCD later?
If you're out of range, you're not using your GCD weaponskills anyway.
I very, very rarely need to use Throwing Daggers, I nearly always have a Raiton ready for any melee downtime, which is usually no more than 2 GCDs.

And from what we've seen, the Raiju don't have animation lock. So it should be a non-issue, and not at all comparable to DRG.

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Can you post some videos of your gameplay to show me how I can do that properly without either dying or sacrificing a lot of dps?

I might be reaching, but I think the devs are trying to do something different with the Mudra system. Skills like Meisui, Raijin and Hollow are gated behind ninjitsu. More and more, mudras are basically putting you in an elemental style and granting you multiple ninjutsu associated with that element. I really like this direction, but it needs some work. I think if done correctly, they can actually prune skills like Kassatsu and TCJ, and implement those effects into the mudra/ninjitsu system. It is actually pretty interesting what you can do with just four buttons.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I might be reaching, but I think the devs are trying to do something different with the Mudra system. Skills like Meisui, Raijin and Hollow are gated behind ninjitsu. More and more, mudras are basically putting you in an elemental style and granting you multiple ninjutsu associated with that element. I really like this direction, but it needs some work. I think if done correctly, they can actually prune skills like Kassatsu and TCJ, and implement those effects into the mudra/ninjitsu system. It is actually pretty interesting what you can do with just four buttons.

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yeah i think the same and is a cool idea

doton , raiton have chains now , well doton is passive but still

i can see suiton gaining a chain skill come 7.0 or maybe removing huton and adding another wind ninjutsu :D

I'm a lvl 89 NIN. I can't wait to get to lvl 90 to fully understand what you're talking about.

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Originally Posted by CynthiaStar

Ninja's new lvl90 skill Raiju comes in two parts, Fleeting Raiju and Forked Raiju. Both of them must be used right after each Raiton as part of the new three part combo or you will lose them.
Using Throwing Dagger removes the Raiju Ready buff.
Both Raiju are gap closers.

These are both issues that will cause many problems in high end content on NIN.
For starters, Ninjas optimal opener includes using all of our Raitons and also TenChiJin in the first 20 seconds of the fight but because of Raiju we now have to use 6 gap closers during this short duration and this pattern will continue throughout the fight causing us to gap close 4 times every 60 seconds with 2 more every 120 seconds for a total of 6.

I repeat, that is a total of 4 or 6 every minute.

It stands to reason that if any mechanics were to show up at all during the time that we use our burst that make us move then we will not be able to use Raiton for uptime anymore due to its combo actions forcing us to jump to the boss twice in a row and we cannot use Throwing Dagger after Raiton because it will cancel the Raiju Ready buff despite Yoshida saying that melees ranged attacks will no longer break combos.

I ask for a major change to Raiju as in its current state it will completely ruin the point of even having ranged GCDs like Raiton. Either remove all gap closers from the Raiju or remove the second one at a bare minimum. Another way to at least make them less limiting is allow us to delay them like Ruin 4 stacks or make them OGCDs that we can use when we want.

Ninja is NOT Dragoon. Do not give us more jumping skills than they have, jumping is Dragoons identity and Ninjas is its ninjutsu and the free movement that it brings. In its current state come Endwalker, Ninja will be the new floor tank because of this skill. Please fix this before a repeat of 5.0 happens.

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Just got to lvl 90 NIN and tried out the two new skills. I couldn't quite see what you were talking about so I did some digging and saw that changes were made in 6.05. Clearly late to the party. At any rate, I'm curious to know, do you like the changes brought by 6.05?

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Originally Posted by MattzOnFire

Just got to lvl 90 NIN and tried out the two new skills. I couldn't quite see what you were talking about so I did some digging and saw that changes were made in 6.05. Clearly late to the party. At any rate, I'm curious to know, do you like the changes brought by 6.05?

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Most people are. The ones that aren’t wanted at least some kind of usability fix like being able to use other melee weaponskills inbetween or what we got with the same number of charges as before.