A Dark Thought on Amaurot

So, as I was musing about Rejoinings, The Sundering, Ancients, Hydaelyn, Zodiark, Hades, and Venat my mind trailed off to what their society must have been like. Well, may have been like.

I started to think about the Dotharl from the Azim Steppe. They are a tribe based around remembering every tribe member, as they believe they merely reincarnate after death, and that their leader can tell who has been reborn with each and every birth.

We know that the order of life in the world of FFXIV is that when people die their soul goes to the Aetherial Realm by way of the Lifestream, where it cycles through, and is eventually reborn into a new body as a new person.

The Amaurotines had children, so we can extrapolate that things were at least similar if not the same. They led seemingly nearly immortal lives though, so I suspect death was uncommon.

Among the Amaurotines there were those who could discern the hues of souls, allowing them to identify specific souls, even after The Sundering. I suspect this is what the Dotharl's Khagan is capable of, but I digress.

We don't know a lot of specifics about their ancient society. We don't know if there was much crime. We don't know if they had wars. We don't know how they dealt with dissidents or ne'er do wells. We don't know about the actual foundation of their utopia. So my thoughts take me to think about that.

Like the Dotharl, or the Dotharl like them, they seem to be a society that takes great pride in remembrance, even taking steps in cataloguing and curating everything that there is or was. How else would the Ascians actually get Zodiark to bring back those they lost? It must have been a grave punishment to not be remembered.

I suspect they dealt with dissidents thusly. Their names were stricken from the public record(expunged from history's weave). When a newborn came into the world, they were looked at with the special soul sight. If they had the soul of a dissident from before paradise, then they were discarded, their soul sent back to writhe in waiting. Wild supposing, I know, but I just want to float the possibility out there.

If it sounds too outlandish to you, a real world analogue would be China's restriction on childbirth, along with their long history of female infanticide. Not suggesting that China is a utopia, just saying that real world childbirth restrictions imposed by government have, had, and do happen. There are also examples of abortions performed due to the predicted sex of the child(most performed in China and India).

Not to get too far off track into the real world. This was just one dark thought about possible flaws in the Ancients' society.

Have you any thoughts on what the Ancients' may have been doing that may have lead them to the Final Days? What other possible costs could have come for them to maintain their paradise nation? I mean, if it even truly was one.

This seems to be based on close to nothing tbh. There isn’t really anything at all that supports this and i doubt even if it did happen, we’d get hardly any information on it as it’s largely irrelevant to the overall plot. I don’t think any particular thing led the ancients to their demise or to the final days. It seems pretty clear and cut that what attacked them was some form of extra terrestrial. We’ve already seen numerous ones such as omega or Ultima, with Ultima even having the description of being able to unfurl the laws of creation or whatever. We also know Omega’s homeworld was destroyed by some mysterious otherworldly entity.

There isn't much to suggest the "sound" was necessarily being caused by some specific malicious entity, either.

I have little doubt that the root of the Final Days lies with the aetherial sea/Lifestream/underworld, though. Something I find it a little odd in that regard is that while the way the cycle of life and death is stated as currently working is that souls are pulled out of the lifestream to inhabit the bodies of new lives, the first short story about Emet Selch also claims that souls would just spontaneously manifest in new lives, and given the Ancient's ability to glimpse at the very color of souls, it's safe to assume they weren't mistaken in that regard.

Did something about the natural order fundamentally change at some point, making it so new souls are no longer being born or is it simply luck of the draw whether a new life has a fresh soul or a "recycled" one?

There are many things we do know but also don't know about the nature of the world's souls, such as the fact that an Ascian's soul is not completely destroyed when it is "shattered" and rather is simply forced back into the cycle of life and death. But where exactly does that place the souls of those sacrificed to summon and empower Zodiark, though? Are they being held in limbo as part of his being (Emet Selch describes them as dormant and slumbering), unable to return to the cycle without some kind of intervention, or did they simply return to the lifestream and the Ascians intended to have Zodiark pluck them from there (Assuming they hadn't already been reborn) and restore them to life in new bodies?

Their whole scheme seems rather...flawed the more I think about it, and hinging more on possibilities then things they actually confirmed to be doable.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I suspect they dealt with dissidents thusly. Their names were stricken from the public record(expunged from history's weave).

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I can see this as being something they did. Both because Emet taunts WoL about it, and because the phantom Ancients never refer to Azem by name. That said they never refer to anybody by name, and from the Hades extreme info it seems one's name was an extremely personal and private thing, shared with very few others, and possibly only revealed upon someone's death. And they never refer to Azem's seat of office before it comes up in 5.3 either anyway.

But nevertheless, it's a reasonable idea. However I doubt they would just be killing reborn children. They would probably just be born again somewhere else anyway.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It seems pretty clear and cut that what attacked them was some form of extra terrestrial.

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The sound was described as coming from within the earth. Intra-terrestrial if anything.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Did something about the natural order fundamentally change at some point, making it so new souls are no longer being born or is it simply luck of the draw whether a new life has a fresh soul or a "recycled" one?

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What makes yo uthink something about that changed? Population increase means new souls need to manifest at some point. Emet also remarked that we only stood to benefit from rejoinings since we were a shard of an old soul, which means some people aren't.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

The sound was described as coming from within the earth. Intra-terrestrial if anything.

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The whole idea is based on Chrono Trigger, where Lavos, an extra terrestrial being, crashed on the planet eons ago and only started causing havoc later.

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Originally Posted by Alenore

Emet also remarked that we only stood to benefit from rejoinings since we were a shard of an old soul, which means some people aren't.

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He says that in the context of the denizens of the Source, into which the other shards were being rejoined.

The mention of souls just suddenly materialising reminds me, we’ve seen that phenomenon happen ourselves.

Alpha in the Omega raids couldn’t talk to us as he had no soul for the echo to work on, but at the end of the raid he bids farewell with words, meaning he now has a soul.

Though that raises another proposal: If an aetherial construct like Alpha could gain a soul and become something more real, could the same happen to other aetherial constructs, like for example, primals? A bit of me wonders if that happened to Hydaelyn and/or Zodiark.

It really does significantly complicate things. Like if constructs can gain souls, where do they come from? Are they born from the construct itself or are they generated by the Lifestream? And if the latter, how does that interact with all the shards and fractured souls? Ishikawa did say to play Omega, so I'd guess Alpha will come up in some way.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It seems pretty clear and cut that what attacked them was some form of extra terrestrial.

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It's neither clear nor cut; the idea that a malevolent extraterrestrial entity is responsible for the Final Days is just headcanon, no more confirmed to be true than the idea that the Final Days were the planet itself punishing the Ancients for their hubris. We don't know if it's one or the other, or something else entirely.

On topic... we do know Amaurot excommunicated and struck from history those who violated their laws and regulations based on Azem being stricken from history. That said few among them supposedly had the "soul sight" that enabled the observation of specific soul hues; only Emet-Selch / Hades is known to have possessed that ability, though it's implied Hythlodaeus may have had it as well (and Zenos inherited it either way).

Ultimately we don't know what caused the Final Days, and that's one of the big mysteries we need to unravel in Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Their whole scheme seems rather...flawed the more I think about it, and hinging more on possibilities then things they actually confirmed to be doable.

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Part of the problem here is that, by Emet-Selch's own admission, the Unsundered were all tempered by Zodiark. They're compelled to follow his purpose, to ensure the order of the star. And that means they're compelled to keep trying to restore it to its pre-Sundering state, no matter how long it takes, or if it's even possible. I would've liked to see someone bring up the question of how they planned to rejoin the Thirteenth, but it never came up.

We've also had multiple patches showing that Tempering comes in different degrees of severity and does not necessarily mean that the individual who happens to be Tempered is incapable of their own thoughts, actions and reasoning. In fact, that has been a pretty major plot point in multiple recent patches.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

It's neither clear nor cut; the idea that a malevolent extraterrestrial entity is responsible for the Final Days is just headcanon, no more confirmed to be true than the idea that the Final Days were the planet itself punishing the Ancients for their hubris. We don't know if it's one or the other, or something else entirely.

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We can use context clues tbh. We know some entity destroyed Omega’s planet(an extra terrestrial one),we know Ultima, an extra terrestrial, had the ability to “unfurl the laws of creation.” We know whatever the sound was, was able to specifically target the ancients’ one weakness, which was their creation magick(laws of creation hm?), and well, we know it’s a trope SE has used time and time again. It’s not confirmed as of yet no but that wasn’t my point, my point was there’s many people who seem to headcanon that the ancients caused their own demise which based on the info we know, makes very little sense unless they decide to retcon shb info.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

We've also had multiple patches showing that Tempering comes in different degrees of severity and does not necessarily mean that the individual who happens to be Tempered is incapable of their own thoughts, actions and reasoning. In fact, that has been a pretty major plot point in multiple recent patches.

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The only tempered shown to not follow their primal's goals were Ga Bu and Tiamat. Ga Bu was tempered by a version of Titan that was blind with grief and rage, and combined with the trauma of finding his dead parents, his mind snapped, so he wasn't really doing anything. Tiamat freely admits that she's not immune to Bahamut's influence (which begs the question of why Fandaniel didn't swing by Azys Lla with Lunar Bahamut, but he's also a complete nutter), which is why you have to cure her tempering before she'll give her aid.

We've also had cases stretching back to ARR where tempered thralls could act like normal people and blend in while still following their goals. Leviathan's pirates had an extensive crystal-smuggling operation going, even going far enough afield to try to blame it on the amaal'ja. Some of the Ala Mhigan guards in 4.1 went unsuspected as they hid crystals around the throne room right up until Lakshmi was summoned. I'm sure there were more, but I'm half asleep and not braining so well right now.

Yes, not all tempered are mindless fanatics or blinded worshipers, but they're still bound to their primal's will and goals.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Part of the problem here is that, by Emet-Selch's own admission, the Unsundered were all tempered by Zodiark. They're compelled to follow his purpose, to ensure the order of the star. And that means they're compelled to keep trying to restore it to its pre-Sundering state, no matter how long it takes, or if it's even possible. I would've liked to see someone bring up the question of how they planned to rejoin the Thirteenth, but it never came up.

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As far as Tempering goes, it varies primal to primal. Iirc, one of the most prominent examples of differences is showcased with Ramuh and the Sylphs. The Sylphs not tempered by the summoning itself asked to straight up be tempered, and Ramuh was like, "Well, if you insist, I suppose. Oh, but don't got bringing me a feast or anything. I only want to eat just enough aether to maintain my beard."

Hades said he was Tempered, but he didn't expound on at what intensity.

As far as returning the Source to its original state... on an aetherial level I think it can be. On the physical one... Mmm... not sure. Just one calamity rearranged its physical face an uncovered things once thought lost for thousands of years that were also buried by calamities. All of the works built over time piling up... I think it'd still be different.

As far as Rejoining the 13th goes... I believe most of its aether is tied up in the Voidsent. Once the other shards had all been Rejoined, the Source would be the only place they could go to get a snack. I think it would be just a matter of opening the door for them to come along, and then destroying them, letting their aether wash over the Source through its physical form. Kinda like busting Primal-likes in the Eden line.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Ultimately we don't know what caused the Final Days, and that's one of the big mysteries we need to unravel in Endwalker.

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I certainly didn't formulate my idea fully nor write it out as well as I would have liked.

What I was trying to drive at was that the Amaurotines may have rejected souls for so long in their society that it caused something like an Exdeath situation but in the Lifestream. Instead of a tortured tree twisting to be malevolent via the souls of the war dead, it's the planet via souls not allowed to inhabit the bodies that the planet wants them to inhabit.

One thing that strikes me as odd is that while Hades showed us a harmonious society, harmonious until Team Hydaelyn, it definitely seems they were only that way within the confines of that society. The life outside of it on the planet was something they viewed as beneath them, on average, proclaiming themselves masters over everything.

But we get that nice admittance in, "Through His Eyes" that they didn't understand the Lifestream, though they could view it and analyze it and even draw power from it.

The closest comparison I can draw is think of the Cetra from FFVII, but rather than living as one and being actually able to commune with the planet they were only so deeply tied to each other. They also built cities instead of living as nomads, building towers to themselves.

The idea that they expelled particular souls or people from their society also relates them to the Zilart from FFXI, who expelled all those who were afflicted with the Emptiness, being incapable of telepathy, "Whisper of the Soul" because of it. Those people were called the Kuluu. The Kuluu found the slumbering elemental gods in the wilds, and developed summoning magic in order to survive. The Zilart then waged a war of subjugation against them, which ended in the Kuluu stopping the Zilart from opening the Gates of Paradise causing an event known as, "The Meltdown." It destroyed Zilartian society almost completely, while mutating many of the surviving Kuluu into Tonberries, but it did spare the planet and the lives upon it.

Reaching tangent territory. Course, the premise of the thread is a bit of one, anyway. I just wanted to get out all the ideas and parallels that I see before they are matchsticks dashed against the rocks come Endwalkers.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

We can use context clues tbh. We know some entity destroyed Omega’s planet(an extra terrestrial one),we know Ultima, an extra terrestrial, had the ability to “unfurl the laws of creation.” We know whatever the sound was, was able to specifically target the ancients’ one weakness, which was their creation magick(laws of creation hm?), and well, we know it’s a trope SE has used time and time again. It’s not confirmed as of yet no but that wasn’t my point, my point was there’s many people who seem to headcanon that the ancients caused their own demise which based on the info we know, makes very little sense unless they decide to retcon shb info.

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The presence of extraterrestrials, some of them malevolent, does not mean whatever caused the sound was extraterrestrial. Further while the sound did cause the Ancients' creation magicks to go haywire, it affected other areas of the world before reaching Amaurot - it was just particularly effective against them due to said creation magicks and their emotional repression meaning they weren't accustomed to (or by and large capable of) facing their fears.

"It's a popular trope SE has used time and again" doesn't mean that's the case here, and your assertion was that it was "pretty clear and cut" it is. (It had nothing to do with other people presenting their headcanon ideas as truth.)

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Yes, not all tempered are mindless fanatics or blinded worshipers, but they're still bound to their primal's will and goals.

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During one lesson in the Crystal Tower Emet-Selch tells us, flat-out and to our faces, that he and the other Ascians now exist only to bring about the rule of Dark and Zodiark's supremacy. They may have personal reasons for doing so, but that doesn't mean they aren't compelled - overtly or covertly - by Zodiark to act in his interests.

I always suspected the rebirth-cycle itself that Ascians are capable of was a creation of theirs.

That is, I believe that while the Ancients were immensely powerful with magic, they were ultimately mortal.

Until at some point, they were able to create/develop/evolve a means to allow their specific Aether to remain intact and be reborn. This creates a problem, as they do indeed have children...with more and more children, more and more souls and more and more aether being recycled into new Ancients.

This would undoubtedly upset the natural order of things, with less and less aether being available for other forms of life...

...unless all this aether is coming from Lavos ;)

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The presence of extraterrestrials, some of them malevolent, does not mean whatever caused the sound was extraterrestrial. Further while the sound did cause the Ancients' creation magicks to go haywire, it affected other areas of the world before reaching Amaurot - it was just particularly effective against them due to said creation magicks and their emotional repression meaning they weren't accustomed to (or by and large capable of) facing their fears.

"It's a popular trope SE has used time and again" doesn't mean that's the case here, and your assertion was that it was "pretty clear and cut" it is. (It had nothing to do with other people presenting their headcanon ideas as truth.)

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You seemed to have just ignored my specific example i used so…just nevermind if you aren’t gonna read lol.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

You seemed to have just ignored my specific example i used so…just nevermind if you aren’t gonna read lol.

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I didn't know I needed to be so blunt.

Correlation does not imply causation. The fact Ultima is said to "have the power to rend the fabric of reality," and that was what happened during the Final Days, does not mean that Ultima (or another malevolent extraterrestrial) was responsible for it. That's jumping to a conclusion, most likely due to confirmation bias (i.e. that's what you want it to be).

That may turn out to be the truth, but it might not be either. (In fact with the Tower of Zot leaning further into IV, I'm pretty sure extraterrestrials are involved somehow.) Point is there's no clear answers one way or another. Lol.

My personal theory on Amaurot's fall is that their "creation magicks" were never truly theirs to play with and in their so called expertise (read: fumbling) they awoke something they very much so should not have. Something something, dug too deep, something something. The ability to create something from nothing, hence "the aether" is the domain of divinity and the Amaurotians, for all their power were very much not divinities. No matter how "utopian" their society may have been according to Emet-Selch and others.

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

My personal theory on Amaurot's fall is that their "creation magicks" were never truly theirs to play with and in their so called expertise (read: fumbling) they awoke something they very much so should not have. Something something, dug too deep, something something. The ability to create something from nothing, hence "the aether" is the domain of divinity and the Amaurotians, for all their power were very much not divinities. No matter how "utopian" their society may have been according to Emet-Selch and others.

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I favor ideas and theories like these, because I really don't like taking the ideas of Ascian/Amaurotine supremacy and perfection at the face value that Emet-Selch has presented it.

I have my own biases for wanting this. I grew very attached to Hydaelyn and her voice was one of comfort since 1.0. And these pro-Zodiark-Ascian theories undermine that entirely. Many people who think the opposite of me probably have their own biases, as well. Some many not want a simple morality tale of good and evil played fairly straight in the "Heroes vs. forces of Morgoth" traditional fashion. Some may like the plot twist of "what once was our greatest ally was actually not good" plot twist. Some people really like "the good people were actually the evil people" plot twists. Or some just really like Emet-Selch to the point that anything which would bend the story in his favor is seen as a good thing. I really liked Hydaelyn in 1.0. I liked Minfilia. And I like the Lady of Light(most likely Venat). I don't want what was built up as this maternal Goddess who I found comforting and a motivating force to play the game and "be a brave heroine" to be undermined by such a plot twist. I do recognize that's a part of my bias as a 1.0 player and something that stuck with me and motivated me to play XIV.

But I think it would be just as reasonable to suspect a perfect "utopian society" to indeed be perfect, and have nothing to do with their own downfall. It just seems a bit idealistic to be true. Wouldn't it be just as suspicious that a "perfect society that must be returned to" and "was only stopped from some unimaginably powerful and unstoppable mystery force". That we're apparently going to defeat in Endwalker while being sundered, something that the unsundered could not defeat in their 'peak society'. Does the writing team really want to play the idea of "a glorious superior people from a glorious superior nation that they must take back from the decadent sundered, modern world" completely straight? Especially since the book it was based off of, Thomas More's Utopia, is considered a criticism or satire?

We've only seen bits and pieces, and an idealized image of Amaurot from a Zodiark Tempered Ascian. And while we don't have confirmation that "The Ascian's Creation Magicks were their undoing", it could certainly be a factor among others. I think it a likely hypothesis that they were doing something wrong that we simply don't know the details of until Endwalker. I think by the end of Endwalker, Amaurot society will be seen as far less perfect than Emet-Selch portrayed it. And not blameless for their own downfall, at the very least. And I think that's far, far more likely than the proposed hypothesis I see a lot here of "Hydaelyn/Venat/Lady of Light was actually evil all along! Plot twist!".

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Have you any thoughts on what the Ancients' may have been doing that may have lead them to the Final Days? What other possible costs could have come for them to maintain their paradise nation? I mean, if it even truly was one.

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Taking this from what I put on Discord the other day.

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Right, so Amaurot (sorry I had to take time to actually organize my thoughts before continuing this.)

I'm starting to believe it's not as hunky dory as Emet would have led us to believe. 1. It's based off Amaurot of Utopia. Utopia has the literal meaning of 'nowhere' and impossibility. Paradise that cannot be obtained. Yet we're to believe Amaurot was paradise before the end-days or so Emet remarks every time he compares us to them.

But let's look at Amaurot.
[9:48 PM]
1. Individualism. You can't wear what you want, or you can, but it's just not 'nice' to others or so the quest we did showed. You have to register any concept you create, before you create it. You wear a mask, because like the outfit, it makes you stand out less. And I don't know if it's just the Convocation with titles or the rest of the people, but even your true name is hidden (though that could go more with the fictional reference of true names, knowing ones true name holds power over them.) (edited)
[9:51 PM]
2. As you said above, Aetheric Wastes, they were very wasteful and god playing with their creation abilities you could somewhat compare it to climate change theory IRL, not taking sides, just the whole debate To the point they very could well have been harming the planet of its resources, this is more headcannon cannon so far. But greatly hinted, such as the beasts in Akademia.
[9:53 PM]
3. Complacency. Phantom Amaurot (which is a double name since Amaurot means Phantom) was a snapshot taken before the final days. But NPCs around town are shown in one area to be saying things are progressing worse, to another part of town talking about 'rumors.' In Akademia again, the writings you collect to read talk about how things were happening outside Amaurot but getting closer, and that they were looking into ways of stopping it, but if Amaurot is right before the final days, they waited a very long while to look into it.
[9:54 PM]
4. Religion. Whil we know they summoned Zodiark as their will of the star. Zodiark had to have been some form of deity they respected or looked up to in some fashion before the summoning. There are statues at the end of Akademia of Zodiark (edited)
[9:54 PM]
But there are none in the city. A sect apart from the rest? Like IRL different beliefs? That would mean division and split before the summoning groups though. Which Emet said they had none and worked together for each other BEFORE the end of days issues.
[9:55 PM]
Putting all this together and what Gaius in Prae said about subjects of a weak ruler (who rules Amaurot? Just the convocation or is there things we don't know? Or is there no ruler?) look to a higher power (Zodiark) and the people suffer.
[9:56 PM]
I'm starting to think the final days might be orchestrated by a rebel faction in Amaurot, possibly Venat's group, to make Amaurot stop being a false utopia. Maybe the sundering was a thing they wanted before the final days, and used the days to bring it forth.
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Hikaru (Nekaru Infitima) — 11/17/2021
Actually listening to Gaius again for once, got me thinking about all of this and how Square foreshadows things well in advance as I'm finding around the world
Hikaru (Nekaru Infitima) — 11/17/2021
Another thing about if it was a rebel faction that brought it forth to destroy a false utopia.
[10:06 PM]
Everything we're seeing of Sharlaya's attitude
[10:06 PM]
Is that same complacency and thought of 'well we're fine'
[10:06 PM]
And now the end days are happening again
[10:07 PM]
Like history repeating itself, which leads me to believe that's some part of it
[10:08 PM]
Which now I bring in another part of something possibly missed.
[10:08 PM]
ASTROLOGIAN questline, and how Sharlaya does not want to share its astrology
[10:08 PM]
So much so they send assassins
[10:08 PM]
If the Amaurotines were anything like that with their creation magics and other races outside Amaurot back then
[10:09 PM]
That'd be another reason to end them through rebels

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Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima

I'm starting to think the final days might be orchestrated by a rebel faction in Amaurot, possibly Venat's group, to make Amaurot stop being a false utopia. Maybe the sundering was a thing they wanted before the final days, and used the days to bring it forth.

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While I've personally been of the opinion that if Venat's crew did create the final days, it was probably not intentional (or intended to go as far as it did), I do appreciate how this idea sort of sidles up parallel to the theory I've seen floating around speculating that Fandaniel is attempting to emulate the final days with the ulterior motive of bringing back popular demand for the star's saviour, Zodiark.

The Final Days didn't start at Amaurot though, it started in another far-off country and eventually worked its way there. The problem I have with "the Final Days was actually caused by Amaurot" is that it's still basically centering the Amaurotines at the center of the conflict and feels like it ignores that it's something that happened to the world at large.

It's the same thing as having to come up with some secret hidden filth for why Amaurot isn't actually a utopia when most of that is actually pretty plain on the surface if you do the side quests and really think about what it would be like to live in the society. The Amaurotines are hardcore conformists and everything seems to be regulated and catalogued by the government; just living your life there essentially requires a uniform. If you agree with all their ideals or are able to easily go with the flow you're pushed, then it probably is a perfect utopia, but if you're someone on the fringes of society, you're probably gonna get hammered down upon.

For me personally, after completing Amaurot's side quests and listening to everything about them, I was left with one impression over everything else: Wow, would I not want to live here.

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Originally Posted by GoldStarz

The Final Days didn't start at Amaurot though, it started in another far-off country and eventually worked its way there. The problem I have with "the Final Days was actually caused by Amaurot" is that it's still basically centering the Amaurotines at the center of the conflict and feels like it ignores that it's something that happened to the world at large.

It's the same thing as having to come up with some secret hidden filth for why Amaurot isn't actually a utopia when most of that is actually pretty plain on the surface if you do the side quests and really think about what it would be like to live in the society. The Amaurotines are hardcore conformists and everything seems to be regulated and catalogued by the government; just living your life there essentially requires a uniform. If you agree with all their ideals or are able to easily go with the flow you're pushed, then it probably is a perfect utopia, but if you're someone on the fringes of society, you're probably gonna get hammered down upon.

For me personally, after completing Amaurot's side quests and listening to everything about them, I was left with one impression over everything else: Wow, would I not want to live here.

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That's what I said above, when naming out the reasons, individualism and whatnot. Aside from the rebel theory. But they weren't a Utopia. They were ... dare I even say it, but a bit communist.

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

I favor ideas and theories like these, because I really don't like taking the ideas of Ascian/Amaurotine supremacy and perfection at the face value that Emet-Selch has presented it.

I have my own biases for wanting this. I grew very attached to Hydaelyn and her voice was one of comfort since 1.0. And these pro-Zodiark-Ascian theories undermine that entirely. Many people who think the opposite of me probably have their own biases, as well. Some many not want a simple morality tale of good and evil played fairly straight in the "Heroes vs. forces of Morgoth" traditional fashion. Some may like the plot twist of "what once was our greatest ally was actually not good" plot twist. Some people really like "the good people were actually the evil people" plot twists. Or some just really like Emet-Selch to the point that anything which would bend the story in his favor is seen as a good thing. I really liked Hydaelyn in 1.0. I liked Minfilia. And I like the Lady of Light(most likely Venat). I don't want what was built up as this maternal Goddess who I found comforting and a motivating force to play the game and "be a brave heroine" to be undermined by such a plot twist. I do recognize that's a part of my bias as a 1.0 player and something that stuck with me and motivated me to play XIV.

But I think it would be just as reasonable to suspect a perfect "utopian society" to indeed be perfect, and have nothing to do with their own downfall. It just seems a bit idealistic to be true. Wouldn't it be just as suspicious that a "perfect society that must be returned to" and "was only stopped from some unimaginably powerful and unstoppable mystery force". That we're apparently going to defeat in Endwalker while being sundered, something that the unsundered could not defeat in their 'peak society'. Does the writing team really want to play the idea of "a glorious superior people from a glorious superior nation that they must take back from the decadent sundered, modern world" completely straight? Especially since the book it was based off of, Thomas More's Utopia, is considered a criticism or satire?

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Or some of us just like the depiction of a realistic world where there is nuance and shades of gray and nothing and no one is completely good or evil.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

Or some of us just like the depiction of a realistic world where there is nuance and shades of gray and nothing and no one is completely good or evil.

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*cough*StarWarsBeforeAnakinChangedIt*cough*

Emet Selch mentioning it was their "sins stacked to the heavens, corrupting its very halls" that brought one of the three dooms of the Final Days does imply that they had done something very wrong.

With how little the Ancients seemed to want for anything aside from knowledge and the betterment of their society, I feel most inclined to think they went too far in the pursuit of the former; namely research into the cycle of life and death and the underworld/Lifestream. Of all the myriad things their creation magicks were capable of, creating souls was one of the few things that they couldn't do, so perhaps someone got the not-so bright idea of tampering with departed souls to gain a deeper understanding and in the process disturbed the very natural order of things.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

Or some of us just like the depiction of a realistic world where there is nuance and shades of gray and nothing and no one is completely good or evil.

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On the subject of morally grey, Amaurot people and their society being as perfect and superior as they claim to be, would not be nuanced or shades of grey at all.

So in that regard, I agree.

If by that, you mean making Hydaelyn, Venat, the Lady of Light, and by exension, Minfilia, morally grey rather than just kind characters. I disagree on that, I think there's a place for both morally grey, and that morally grey can also exist and be realistic without being against just portraying very empathetic and kind characters.
Very empathic and kind people exist. And they can certainly exist in an unrealistic world with Gods and aether. Lord of the Rings isn't badly written for making Melkor evil. And I think that diminishing what has been set up about Hydaelyn since 1.0, and carried over to Minfilia, and now Ryne and Venat, would be undermining what they have built up thematically.

I hope that people can get their "realistic and morally grey characters", without undermining one of my favourite characters in Final Fantasy XIV. I don't like what that would do thematically. Hydaelyn was meant to be like a voice of the developers. And a voice calling out for heroism and "Warriors of Light". Which is important to the series, not just Final Fantasy XIV.
Hydaelyn has been built up thematically to be symbolic in a morally good way from early on. And sometimes it's good to have symbolic characters. Or even just kind and empathetic characters.

I'm glad that people are moving away from one dimensional good versus evil storytelling, to more political and nuanced plotlines that show the complexity of the human condition. That cruel people are made and not born that way. And that evil people don't necessarily think their decisions are evil.
But I think it's gone too far in the other direction to act like morally good isn't a thing, or that acting out of empathy and kindness doesn't mean something or that it's cheesy to feel warmth and good feelings at empathic and wholesome characters. People and characters can be good.

It's also not without precedent for the Final Fantasy series to have simply good or evil characters. Exdeath is a prime example of a character who is evil incarnate. Personally, I think more nuanced villains like the typical Tales of series villain, where they simply have a different perspective than the heroes, is interesting. It's one thing I like about Namco's Tales of video game series. Almost every villain has some understandable motivation. But that doesn't make them morally good, either. A hero can still be a hero and a villain can still be a villain with shades of grey. It wouldn't be bad writing to leave the Ascians we've fought as still villains by the end of Endwalker. It's good that they've given them more dimension to their motivation, and allowed people to empathize with them. But it's also okay for them to stay villains with motives that we can understand on some level, while still being morally wrong. Kefka is still a good villain, even though his actions are all cruel, not morally grey.

There's certainly nothing morally grey, about playing the idea totally straight of a racially and culturally superior ancient nation that wants to return to their past glory. That says something, and it's not anything good. I would be disappointed if, by the conclusion of Endwalker, the message basically still was, "why, yes, the Ancients really were racially and culturally superior to these sundered incomplete subhumans that you play as when you create a character, and %99 of the characters you interact with. And you're only better than most NPCs because of your relation to this ancient Master Race anyway. But you defeated another one because you're morally grey, might not have been the right decision. By the way, Hydaelyn/Venat actually made the wrong decision. Zodiark good, actually!"

Empathizing with Emet-Selch and the whole of Amourite is an understandable and good thing. But no matter how you spin it, the Convocation, such as Emet-Selch, are a people, who will happily kill entire worlds of people, because they view them as subhuman. And see themselves as a glorious nation that must be restored, because they are racially and culturally superior to all other beings. Forgive me if the real life analogue to that idea doesn't sound terrifying and also morally wrong. Not morally grey, but morally wrong. They also just happened to create the two biggest and most genocidal expansionist empires in the history of the Star, the Allagan Empire and the Garlean Empire.

We already have plenty of morally grey without the Hydealyn Zodiark conflict coming down to just "a difference of opinion" or even "Hydaelyn/Venat were actually in the wrong". Eorzea is far from perfect. Ul'dah exploits the poor. Gridania is racist, especially to Duskwights and Coeurlclaws. Limsa has exploitative pirates who colonized and mistreated Kobolds. Doma has a sex slavery problem. The nations we have fought for and liberated have been far from perfect. There is so much morally grey stuff outside of the Hydealyn and Zodiark conflict. Do we have to make Hydaelyn and Zodiark morally equivalent? How is making the Convocation and perfect as they claim to be morally grey?

Just want to say, upon review of this thread that I made, that when I have dark thoughts about Amaurot it's not intended to solely criticize the Ascians that we know and fight. It's also commentary on Team Hydaelyn, as they too were Amaurotines who would have lived under and partaken in this system.

I'm not sure, but I think some people forget that.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Among the Amaurotines there were those who could discern the hues of souls, allowing them to identify specific souls, even after The Sundering.

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When a newborn came into the world, they were looked at with the special soul sight. If they had the soul of a dissident from before paradise, then they were discarded, their soul sent back to writhe in waiting.

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The comments I'd read—wherein people speculated whether or not there even was a cycle of rebirth before the Final Days™—must have been in a separate thread, but I wanted to latch onto that bizarre speculation.
One moment, putting on my tinfoil hat...

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As Hades well knew, souls spontaneously manifested within creatures that were born in accordance with the laws of nature. It was a gift from the star itself, long held to be impossible to recreate.

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Supposing that there wasn't a cycle of rebirth prior to the final days, but that such a cycle was introduced either in Zodiark's rewriting of the laws of nature or in Hydaelyn's act of sundering, I think it would be very interesting if this was the intent behind doing so: that dissidents could be effectively filtered out, claimed, etc.

Imagine if Zodiark had the ability to temper every individual the moment they're born into the world.
Conversely, imagine if Hydaelyn had the ability to control when and where certain souls would be reborn.
In a great, intergenerational civil war, this would be quite the weapon.

Also, having built up roles around the cycle of rebirth, I would think the terms "Mother" and "Father" fitting.

Wild speculation aside (to an extent), I also do want to touch on what others are saying, that while Amaurotines seem to have a a clear love for open dialogue, it does sort of seem as though beneath the surface, they have a predilection for cover-ups and secrecy.
Azem wasn't meant to have a job crystal, Venat's name was never even mentioned, and Hydaelyn (according to Elidibus) and Her creators desired that "the origins of the world remain hidden and its inhabitants ignorant of their broken existence."

In a way, it reminds me of Yotsuyu's parting words, though spoken of Doma:

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[Our people] ignore the corruption which festers beneath the surface. Cast aside that which is dirty and broken. Speak not of things which would disrupt their dreary little lives.

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It caught up to Doma in the form of a wayward daughter made tyrant. If there was corruption festering beneath the surface of Amaurot, I don't see how it wouldn't reach a boiling point, as well—as literally everyone on this forum has speculated, I know.

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Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima

That's what I said above, when naming out the reasons, individualism and whatnot. Aside from the rebel theory. But they weren't a Utopia. They were ... dare I even say it, but a bit communist.

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The original "Utopia" by Thomas More was literally a description of what a 16th century Englishman thought a socialist state would look like. Or perhaps what he thought a satire of a socialist state would look like. So Amaurot seeming rather communist is certainly on point.

(Standard caveat that what Thomas More thought was socialism does not actually bear much resemblance to actual socialism.)

In my honest opinion, basically committing genocide by sundering an entire planet's worth of people is just as evil and morally wrong as what the Ascians want to do. It doesn't make Hydaelyn any less kind to the ones She considers her Children. Just that the actions of Her Heart were very much morally questionable at the time she performed them.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Just want to say, upon review of this thread that I made, that when I have dark thoughts about Amaurot it's not intended to solely criticize the Ascians that we know and fight. It's also commentary on Team Hydaelyn, as they too were Amaurotines who would have lived under and partaken in this system.

I'm not sure, but I think some people forget that.

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I haven't forgotten. I don't want a big, bad evil Zodiark anymore than I want a big, bad evil Hydaelyn. As per their nature as Primals, I personally disagree with the idea of Hydaelyn OR Zodiark having much true autonomy and the majority of responsibility of what they've done can be laid at the feet of their summoners. At the end of the day though, the Ascians while I hesitate to call them villains for personal reasons (though judging them solely by what atrocities they are directly and indirectly responsible for they would be in the eyes of most) are remnants of a race of people who just can't let go. The whole point, I feel of FFXIV's narrative so far is that all life is precious and the Amaurotines' era of glory is over. It's not as if the average person hasn't seen their character archetype before in other forms of media, their goals hardly ever end in anything good. There is never a good excuse for wanton slaughter, former utopia or not people's lives are at stake and they're gonna fight you. As is their right.