A great change for Commendation

As I do dungeons, trials, raids, and anything to deal with cooperative teamwork should be heavily change with its commendation system. First, I seen Healers do real foolish gameplay by either damage per second with Holy spam & little effort to heal, Tanks not popping their cooldown & not being stationary at times (although the WHM ruins the stun timing for them), and some DPS not pull their weight with damage. Second, when it comes to real time act maneuver or dungeon mechanics (if they are not sprouts OR on a Alt), and just dragging the party down to not perform well in a dungeon, raid, trial, and etc. Third, a "Score Activity Performance" of some sort would do well for a system to notice the players role and depending how well the player does in the cooperative dungeon, raid, trial, etc . . . . At the end, it will determine the performance on the party & how each did. Over all, would it favor in rewards to those that did perform their role? Yes, and why? To push players to actually play the role that they select to choose and is it harsh? No, because no one wants to waste their time on trolls or people being stubborn to really understand a role on what it should be, therefore why reward the sorry poorly skilled player base, than the ones that do perform their best? This is my opinion and fair believe on tbe outcome of what I just typed out.

Never really understood why do ppl care about those in the first place, it doesn't mean anything.
I'm curious tbh what does this change to you to have those ?
I've done thousands of dungeons / trials over the years and i got something like few hundreds, only because i quit the thing as soon as it's over does this mean i'm a terrible player ? Not at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leshiken

(although the WHM ruins the stun timing for them)

---

First let me touch on this. I don’t think you play the other jobs to have a fair understanding of how they work and what they are actually doing. Did you know, a white mage holy spamming doesn’t “ruin stun timing”. The holy spam gives the white mage roughly 10 seconds of not having to heal the tank. In fact, thats all part of the white mage healing tool kit. Tank isn’t taking damage, saves them their mitigation (cool downs), tank doesn’t need to be healed, saving big heal skills such as tetra for later in the pull, or even for the next pull.

Now, i think i understand what you are asking for, but not really. Are you suggesting the game has a set standard for each class, and the game itself gives out commendations when those standards are met? If so, what if a person gets a duty in progress, and does amazing? They haven’t been in long enough to reach the bar set by the games standard. Or maybe a new person who is learning mechanics? Takes a few hits, surpassing the potential alotted damage taken threshold, but learns well and pulls themself together? Do they not deserve one for growing as a player? Or potentially all the great players are just really crappy people. Bad attitudes. What of the person enduring all that, tight lipped, and polite all run?
A lot more goes into some commendation considerations than simply, does the job good

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leshiken

"Score Activity Performance"

---

Yoshi P has said they won't add something like this for the same reasons they won't add an in game parser.

Also, it comes with the issue of "how do you rate players?" Especially since the rotations the entire playerbase comes up with are often different than what the Devs cooked up or intended. So... how does the game judge what's "right?"

And what about simple differences in playstyle? The devs don't wanna tell people "this is the right way to play." So what will the game do for healers that keep everyone topped vs healers that play "how low can you go" but never letting anyone die vs a group that never needs healing because they're chain stunning everything into the ground (say, by Holy spamming). How does the game measure who is doing good without affirming one style as right?

Per the devs, they don't want an automated score system for most PvE content because it will become a source of bullying. Specifically anything combat related.

If you're clearing the dungeon, you (as a group) are doing what is expected at that level of play. The game isn't meant to be even mildly competitive or difficult to play (generally speaking).

Yes, there is "git gud" content, but for a general PuG, personally I want to reward the new player if they just survive certain content on their first try. Or if they are nervous about tanking and giving it a shot. Don't care if they did well.

This isn't to say players shouldn't attempt to improve, but it is saying that a player who is genuinely bad at video games can and should be able to enjoy this game's story in general. The devs want as wide an audience as they can get, whether certain players like it or not.

Even then, that would be a quick way to lose friends: My personal group of friends in game includes my wife, and she's pretty awful. We practically had to drag her through Binding Coil, but she was doing her best. Any feedback from the game would have devastated her. Fortunately, we are all RL personal friends, so we didn't care if she was good. She knows she sucks, but it would be harsh for the game to call her out on how BAD she actually is. (If my friends are average joe A-B skill players, she thinks she's a C, but she's like.. E+)

See: Dad of Light TV Drama. That's the kind of player the devs want to include. That's why the game is so easy, and that's why the devs don't want any kind of system to judge optimal play.

Most of the players in this game aren't qualified to offer a meaningful assessment of anyone's performance.

You'll find that the better you play healer in DF content, the less comms you tend to get, because to the average casual player optimized healing tends to be frightening. The same goes for good DPS players, who will often purposely stand in AOEs during mob pulls to avoid disengaging, as its basically impossible to take cumulatively fatal damage during the vast majority of add pulls (barring the tank dying or failing to hold aggro).

Personally, and I've mentioned this many times previously, I do think there should be some sort of personal report card for each (or at least certain select) dungeons and trials. Not shared with the group, not posted anywhere publicly, just one that pops up upon completion of the Duty and gives you basic letter grades and performance pointers. It's not going to help anyone learn who doesn't want to learn, but for those who do want to learn it may help push them in the right direction or lead them to ask about how to improve. Of course, this would be aided tremendously if the game itself were better at teaching players how to play the game without forcing them to go to a third party resource.

As for commendations, it would be nice if there were some sort of use for them but I don't really think there needs to be one as that could just lead to more issues anyway. Besides, a lot of players don't even commend based on performance anyway so it would be near impossible to nail down as an actual performance reward. Heck, I know that I will often tend to Commend DPS if I notice they're playing well as I know that Tank/Healer are the default for most people regardless, or will just Commend someone who happens to chat a bit and be friendly/helpful. I'll also tend to Commend a player who says they're new to the Duty just as pat on the back for getting through it. I wouldn't say performance is the last thing I consider but it's rarely the first unless someone really went out of their way and did something special.

I have routinely saved parties myself by healing (literally solo healed), prevented wipes, and gotten no commendations. I always chuckle when people say "just play healer or tank", when healer and tank is pretty much all I play, and I hardly ever get them regardless of how well I perform in any aspect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I have routinely saved parties myself by healing (literally solo healed), prevented wipes, and gotten no commendations. I always chuckle when people say "just play healer or tank", when healer and tank is pretty much all I play, and I hardly ever get them regardless of how well I perform in any aspect.

---

Back in the like Heavensward days it felt like "just play tank/healer" was the go-to for comms, honestly. Where you could expect to just get all three for tanking or healing - and it did breed a lot of weird DF mentalities where some people, however bad they were, would demand them just for showing up. But these days I notice I get way, way, more comms just by being a basic brained DPS and doing my job without screwing up. Or doing something comical like LBing and killing a boss and dying at the same time.

If a party member did something that left a good impression on you, give them a commendation. If not, don't. The system doesn't need to be more complicated than that and certainly doesn't need a 'grading system'.

Plus, as a whm, the fact that you're speaking against holy spamming, one of our most valuable tool against trash in both damage output and damage mitigation via stun locking, makes me glad you don't get to rate your whm on performance <.<

I find it very funny that you want a rating system while also saying that WHM spamming Holy is bad. Holy is easily one of the best moves on the class. For that one comment alone I rate you at F.

In all seriousness though, grading systems suck. I'm glad they are not in the game. They breed a toxic mentality and the fact that the game does not care is a good thing. Grading systems can't account for the individual perception of fun. If I want to commend a dps for dying in a hilarious way or telling a really stupid joke, I'm allowed to.

I'm not a fan of anything that uses a system that judges players on how they did when how they did is based on how the others did in the content.

A melee DPS's ability to do max DPS is dependent on the tank not moving the boss too much.

Tanks fighting over aggro can cause DPS and healers to have problems if the boss uses the wrong attack when facing the wrong way. And cause problems for each other due to aggro management.

Healers can have problems if the black mages are going "healer's adjust, I'm not moving out of my ley lines" or ranged DPS standing out of range of the healer or tanks not properly using their cooldowns.

Lets not put arbitrary ranking in the hands of other players. The one kudos is enough, I don't need a bunch of people who don't understand what my role does or what problems I'm dealing with dinging my rewards or possibly ABUSING the system to troll others.

Speaking as someone who totally supports parsers... I don't think an automated grading system would work in this game. What counts as 'good' is gonna vary from group to group, and sometimes it'll vary a lot. Someone else hit on this earlier, but like... if I'm in a group with friends, I'm gonna be standing in aoes left and right as a dps or letting my friends' health get a little spooky sometimes because I know they know what they're doing and that I can get away with that without getting everyone killed. If I'm in a pug group I'll generally be more cautious because I've had a few too many groups where I just straight up never got healed even through UNavoidable damage to take that chance.

I adjust my play to fit the group, and the situation, and there are some things an automatic grading system can't account for and can't tell you. Just like even parsers can't really tell you everything. There's just too many variables and too many ways to misinterpret them, even if most dungeons in this game are just different flavors of hallway.

Wait, people use the commendation system for gameplay performance and not glam??!??!

Guess I've been doing it wrong this whole time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

Wait, people use the commendation system for gameplay performance and not glam??!??!

Guess I've been doing it wrong this whole time.

---

Nono, you give it to whoever has the funniest name, THEN whoever has the best glam.

Then the best dps or whatever, I guess

Performance score can be nice when implemented properly. But the question is, how are you going to gauge each role's performance?

DPS? Obviously their damage dealt.
Tanks? This get a bit blurry but perhaps the amount of damage they mitigate by a proper usage of cooldowns & their damage, because to generate said enmity they have to deal damage.
Healer? This is where the gauging falls apart, flat. The amount of HP they healed? There's not even much to heal in dungeons, Medica II 100% uptime meta incoming! Damage dealt? But they're a healer! The amount of raises they did? But that means the DPS has to die to increase the healer's scores!

And then we have mechanics handling. How do you score this? What if that RDM backflip to your side with their marker and stacks with yours, killing each other? It wasn't your mistake! But your score suffers because of that g*ddamned RDM!

...Actually :p, we're treading so close to those glorified calculating tools! Ain't no way Yoshi-p gonna agree with this, it's too much pressure on those poor inexperienced players! Numbers on themselves don't do any harm, just like any tools, but do not underestimate the lengths a playerbase willing to go through for certain goal.

I have to agree that comm system is mediocre at best. If any, they just serve more like a facebook like buttons.

*Tanks badly and still gets all the comms in your path*
nothin personnel kid

Quote:

---

how do you rate players?

---

Glamour, obviously.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Izscha

Never really understood why do ppl care about those in the first place, it doesn't mean anything.

---

I agree. It's pretty unpopular whenever I say it, but the truth is that the majority of the players in this game don't even know how to recognize a skilled player when they see one anyways. Most of the time it just comes down to things like which job/role you play or your glamour or whether or not you said hello and goodbye at the beginning and end of the duty.

Though, with that said, I've had all the commendation rewards for a long time now so of course they seem pretty worthless to me. If they were a good indicator of someone who performs well, I think I'd be more happy with them despite that, but receiving them from this particular game's community just feels hollow most of the time.

Quote:

---

As I do dungeons, trials, raids, and anything to deal with cooperative teamwork should be heavily change with its commendation system. First, I seen Healers do real foolish gameplay by either damage per second with Holy spam & little effort to heal

---

Healers dps in uptime when heals arent needed or the damage incoming isnt that bad, many classes have their own heals ( Second wind, Thrill of Battle etc ) and are expected to use them. The dps job is also to stay out of aoes and avoid damage to reduce healing required. Holy is , along with Glare and Dia, very useful, healers are expected to dps when possible.

Quote:

---

Tanks not popping their cooldown & not being stationary at times

---

Tank or not, a tanks job is to still get out of avoidable damage, and to not expect a healer to heal damage they should not be taking. When a boss drops a frontal cone aoe, a tank will sidestep it and then move back. Tanks do not stand still the entire time.

Quote:

---

(although the WHM ruins the stun timing for them), and some DPS not pull l their weight with damage.

---

Unless you are running a parser, you cant know that.

Quote:

---

Third, a "Score Activity Performance" of some sort would do well for a system to notice the players role and depending how well the player does in the cooperative dungeon, raid, trial, etc . . . . At the end, it will determine the performance on the party & how each did.

---

Publically? NO. Absolutely not. Open to misuse and abuse.

Quote:

---

Over all, would it favor in rewards to those that did perform their role? Yes, and why? To push players to actually play the role that they select to choose and is it harsh? No, because no one wants to waste their time on trolls or people being stubborn to really understand a role on what it should be, therefore why reward the sorry poorly skilled player base, than the ones that do perform their best? This is my opinion and fair believe on tbe outcome of what I just typed out.

---

A flat no.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leshiken

First, I seen Healers do real foolish gameplay by either damage per second with Holy spam & little effort to heal, [...](although the WHM ruins the stun timing for them)

---

Didn't read the rest of the post after this but really? You think a tanks measly single target stun is superior to the chad WHM aoe stun?

Not really interested in OP ideas, they all seem just bad.

Only thing i would like is to be able to commend players even if they already left the instance. Just the ones who were there at completion of the instance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by weebtext

Didn't read the rest of the post after this but really? You think a tanks measly single target stun is superior to the chad WHM aoe stun?

---

Pld shield bash is but the rest are not. Its not worth enough for the whm to not use holy in most cases thou. Unless its just one or two mobs.

Do I get a comm for every Verraise? Because I'd be getting a lot of comms lately.

I've seen some strange ideas over the years but having a problem with a WHM spamming holy on trash packs is up there with the strangest.

Also, Comms are meaningless, I've had poor runs and picked up all 3 and also dragged a group through content many times with the skin of my teeth and got nothing. It's just how it goes.

@OP:

Just wanted to say, I read through this thread and want to say even though you see a lot of strong opposition to your ideas, don’t let that get you down.

Always good to throw ideas out there to see how it “sticks”, and I can see your heart is in the right place- improving average player skill…but there are other ways to go about it.

Don’t let one thread discourage you from other idea sharing!

Not a fan of this idea. These types of aids only breed segregation in the player base a slippery slope we can do without in this game. Content should be widely available to all no matter how badly you think others play because you maybe wrong or not understanding how another class is played. It's not good to cater to the few who want to use these types of tools to berate or demean others. We know how abused some third party tools are and how they are used to make others feel bad. I agree with the devs it's not necessary, everyone should have fun in their own way without being made to feel bad in a game they pay for.

"yes it does" and I am speaking about the game . . . . .. not your feelings nor your choice to be lazy & be crazy.

This is not about bullying or catering because I mention about players actually performing their role. Also, what the devs state on their behalf shouldn't make you agree entirely without understanding on the perspective of other players that do want to play the game and not waste time messing around because they pay the game to play by progressing & using the time to actually enjoy.

Thank you and I appreciate your understanding.

Mind your fingers & stop thinking only to yourself.

Ok? Why post here over one thing that offends? . . . . Ah, you disagree about your WHM holy spam. Gotcha!

I like to yell at chocobos in traffic.

In other words, you prefer being lazy and supportive about the lack of effort in cooperative play? Because I am typing about role performance, and not about someone dying hilarious or telling a stupid joke NOR what you are allowed too.

I read your reply and I appreciate your share on my view.

You do not need a parser to see the damage output if you pay attention to your dps numbers. Also, "not being stationary at times" i never said stay on AoE markers or take all the damage openly. Moreover, misuse & abuse? It is nothing compare to how players troll and cause a wipe on purpose during either raid or trials. Above all, if you are competent to type your view and reason on my entire thread to give a reason on each section, then you on obviously should know what I am stating exactly OR you obviously disagree because you were carried through your progress.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Izscha

Never really understood why do ppl care about those in the first place, it doesn't mean anything.
I'm curious tbh what does this change to you to have those ?
I've done thousands of dungeons / trials over the years and i got something like few hundreds, only because i quit the thing as soon as it's over does this mean i'm a terrible player ? Not at all.

---

For the Mount and crown iirc.