Another expansion ignoring AoE access

It's absolutely mind-blowing how we are in the 6th expansion (especially after shb, which standardized AoE), yet some jobs do not get an AoE until their forties.
Why DRG has to spam ST skills in a dungeon for 40 levels and someone as scholar for 46

First AoE skill should come with the same level you unlock your first dungeon and should have an in game note saying to try it (or something like this to suggest the utilization of it). This kinda hand holds and guides people to understanding the importance of AoE. Its really a point of frustration that some classes dont even gain an AoE attack until well into leveling (level 40???). Not really sure what reasoning is provided to not have this combo like that.

How much aoe damage do we really do pre 40 though? I'd imagine the damage is barely noticable.

Half the point is getting players to understand that large groups of mobs (dungeons) are where you should use AoE. There are a lot of players who are max level or near max level and still doing pure single target rotations. This drags things out and is kinda disappointing that people are that unaware. Its not about being speedrunner or zoom zoom fast through things, but getting people to understand the absolute basics of the game. Its like playing a fighter game and not knowing you can kick instead of punch?

I also dont see how this is even an argument against giving people AoE at the level where you would use it in the very next content you do? It seems to logically follow that in the first instance it would be beneficial is where you get it.

IMO the difference is definitely noticeable, literally some minutes ago I was in a Halatali as ARC with a PGL and it was clear that they were single-targeting only because threat was skewed and it was just... Weird? AoE play is core to dungeons, so it's unfathomable why at least 1 ability isn't available the moment we unlock them. 45 is ridiculously late for healers to get AoE, BTW. Also, it's funny to play RDM in something like Sastasha, where to get White Mana you have to single target and it's all so lopsided.

It's rather noticeable when you get a group with 2 melee dps, not outrageously slow either, but I'd say noticeable enough that even a new player would feel weak[er] for taking the same time killing 1 mob as their ranged teammate decimates the whole rest of the pack /shrug

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

Also, it's funny to play RDM in something like Sastasha, where to get White Mana you have to single target and it's all so lopsided.

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I don't even bother with mana balancing at that point until less than 3 enemies left standing. Multiplying factor from their AoE alone really outshines everything else. Earlier ARR dungeon doesn't seem to be designed to have mobs that can withstand heavy AoE bombardment.

Not quite the same issue everyone in this thread is having but I also want to give a shout out for DRK learning the second part of their AOE rotation at level 72.

It's outrageous.

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

How much aoe damage do we really do pre 40 though? I'd imagine the damage is barely noticable.

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It really isn't noticeable at all in those super low level duties if your DPS are doing what they're supposed to. All they're really doing at that point is putting more stress on the healer because those duties were not designed around 1 braincell AoE spam like non leveling duties in later expansions.

Just remove them for other jobs because I hate the big pull mentality

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

How much aoe damage do we really do pre 40 though? I'd imagine the damage is barely noticable.

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I admit, during those levels it's less about damage and more about self gratification.
It is much more satisfying slaping a group of mobs with an aoe than poking everyone one by one. More of a qol feature

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Originally Posted by Xiu_Ye

Half the point is getting players to understand that large groups of mobs (dungeons) are where you should use AoE. There are a lot of players who are max level or near max level and still doing pure single target rotations. This drags things out and is kinda disappointing that people are that unaware. Its not about being speedrunner or zoom zoom fast through things, but getting people to understand the absolute basics of the game. Its like playing a fighter game and not knowing you can kick instead of punch?

I also dont see how this is even an argument against giving people AoE at the level where you would use it in the very next content you do? It seems to logically follow that in the first instance it would be beneficial is where you get it.

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What makes you think that people who don't even read tooltips are going to do even if they get the spell at lvl 1? Get real.

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Originally Posted by _Pigzig

Just remove them for other jobs because I hate the big pull mentality

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So we all need to try not to fall asleep single-targeting single enemies at a time just because you're scared and lazy. No thank you.

Single rotation is more interesting, AoE rotation is boring it's like 2-3 skills. You can do your single rotation more.

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Originally Posted by _Pigzig

Just remove them for other jobs because I hate the big pull mentality

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This literally helps nothing so let's not. Like you said: it's 2-3 buttons and is simple...so why not just do it? Lol

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

How much aoe damage do we really do pre 40 though? I'd imagine the damage is barely noticable.

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Let's say your normal low-level combo deal 40 damage per two button press. Your AoE button deal 9 damage, so it only deal 18 per two button press on a single-target.


However, AoE can hit multi-target, so while you deal 40 damage per two button press on single target, you will deal 54 damage per two button presses if three targets, and more. The more monsters, the more damage AoE combo deals in total. A group of ARR dungeons usually have 3-4 monsters, and it is safe to pull two groups at once.

It definitely does seem a little odd, not even just for the AoE purpose but for just general new player friendliness. On top of that, though, it's also an issue of establishing a habit. Let all classes get some sort of AoE early on, and make sure that the Hall of the Novice teaches it and mentions it. Heck, have them mention it even if you don't have an AoE by that point in the game.

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

How much aoe damage do we really do pre 40 though? I'd imagine the damage is barely noticable.

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It's not about the damage for me, it's about how frustrating and unsatisfying it is to be stuck single targeting when I'm surrounded by a pack of mobs. Way more fun to be able to take down everything at once.

People don't read tooltips.... so our solution is.... do nothing at all to help them learn the importance of AoE skills..? I fail to understand what your post is trying to say besides voicing your own personal frustration at other players not pulling their weight. You sound like you should be the loudest advocate for the game doing more to get players involved in how their skills work and when to use them.

While I agree there should be AoE options earlier, it is important to understand your core ST rotations, and to know when to use AoE instead of just blasting it.
I like to think that the first few dungeons are designed to show you "These are the important abilities in your kit".

As in I often see:

- Players using AoE on 1-2 mobs when they should be doing ST (Typically AoE is only ideal from 3+ mobs; depending on the job this may vary).
- Players not understanding that doing parts of their ST rotation is important for their overall DPS output. (eg. doing the part of Samurai's ST puts up 2 different buffs that can then be maintained with AoE).
- Players just not doing ST rotations correctly because AoE is typically easier (especially for melee).

...
All that said, yes: You should have access to your entire range of core abilities by like.. 30. And your entire kit by 50. I've often said post 50 should just be upgraded abilities/more charges of abilities to weave oGCD and not entirely new mechanics.

The order in which Jobs get their abilities hails back to a time when they thought the Jobs would be more diverse than they are. They built quests around earning these abilities and some of those quests would no longer make sense without them. Oops!

They should still make AOEs all come in at the same levels for every Job. Maybe it can differ by role, but not by Job. And DRK not getting the end of its AOE until 72 is ridiculous. They should change it in Endwalker but apparently they're not going to. It's just silly.

It's a minor inconvenience, but I don't think it's worth their time to go back and redo this experience. Some of the classes in question still need the time to learn to do their positionals and combos correctly.

This is but a smaller part of a much bigger problem with the way the game is designed around expansions.

Every time they increase the level cap and have to add new abilities to make those new levels feel cool, they have to reduce the number of actions learned throughout the existing levels. They also have new jobs that start 20 levels from the new cap and don't have to do any quests or any other leveling at those low levels, they just have to have vaguely evenly spaced-out levels attached to abilities for times when they're synced. All of these things make sense for them to prioritize, but that means that things like lower level dungeons or the leveling experience for jobs that do start at level 1 or 30 are kind of left by the wayside.

So yeah, some jobs don't have AoE abilities at lower levels and they feel super awkward to play, but there are also tons of other things that are missing that make other jobs awkward. Scholar faeries sync so badly they can heal whole runs, while the other healers have to hard-cast healing spells because they don't have instants yet. Speaking of healers, Astrologian doesn't get cards until 30, the entire unique feature of their job. And speaking of that, Dancer doesn't get Closed Position until all the way at 60! Summoners have a big awkward section where they can't use either of their demi summons despite their rotation being built entirely around them, Bard's DoTs don't line up correctly, Gunbreaker loses most of its cartridge abilities...the list goes on. So yeah, it would be nice if Dragoon had an AoE at low levels, but it's definitely not alone in being weird when leveling up for the first time or being synced down after 3-4 expansions worth of redistribution.

I agree with all your criticism the AoE one is just one that seems very blatant, obvious, and easily fixable.

Yeah it's a pretty noticeable difference not having AoEs.

Level 30 MCH with 6 mobs: 1080 potency per GCD
Level 30 DRG with 6 mobs: 390 (average) potency per GCD

I really don't think a lot of the role actions need to be learned as early as they are and think it would make sense to switch their position with one of the AoE skills instead at very least for melee DPS jobs.

Honestly i feel like this is part of the problem with some sprouts not using any AOE in later dungeons, if everyone unlocked it at 15 more people would naturally learn that aoe is good to use

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Originally Posted by Floortank

And DRK not getting the end of its AOE until 72 is ridiculous.

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As infuriating as I found it that DRK didn't get the second part of its AoE rotation until 72, I was even more annoyed by the fact that MNK has the beginning of their AoE rotation at 26, the end of the AoE rotation at 30, and does not get the middle of the rotation until level 45. Yes, MNK's a weird case where by endgame you have three options for each part of the rotation -- i.e. Raptor, Coeurl, and Opo-Opo forms -- so it's not like you can't use a single-target ability in the middle of the AoE rotation. But it doesn't change the fact that it feels bad, and that you have to do that for fifteen levels.

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

Honestly i feel like this is part of the problem with some sprouts not using any AOE in later dungeons, if everyone unlocked it at 15 more people would naturally learn that aoe is good to use

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When they gain access has little to do with it. They still have to read their tooltips and do the basic math of how it's better to have 3+ mobs get hit for 160 vs 1 for 300. I've seen casters get upset when people try to tell them AOE is better. I've seen a 60 gunbreaker use their single target rotation in dungeon pulls.

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

How much aoe damage do we really do pre 40 though? I'd imagine the damage is barely noticable.

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Against 4 targets:

• Lv18 RDM: 245 p/GCD dualcasting Jolt-Verslowspell or they can do 440 p/GCD dualcasting VerthunderII-Scatter (1.80x damage)
• Lv18 ARC/BRD: 184 p/GCD with Heavy Shot (including the 20% chance to do 20 more potency with Straight Shot) or they can do 600 p/GCD with Quick Nock (3.26x damage)
• Lv18 MCH: 220 p/GCD with SplitShot-SlugShot or they can do 720 p/GCD spamming Spread Shot (3.27x damage)
• Lv15 DNC: 275 p/GCD with Cascade-Fountain or 600 p/GCD spamming Windmill (2.18x)
• Lv15 GLA/PLD: 250 p/GCD with FastBlade-RiotBlade or 480 p/GCD spamming Total Eclipse (1.92x)
• Lv15 MRD/WAR: 260 p/GCD with HeavySwing-Maim or 520 p/GCD spamming Overpower (2.00x)
• Lv15 DRK: 250 p/GCD with HardSlash-SyphonStrike or 600 p/GCD spamming Unleash (2.40x)
• Lv15 GNB: 250 p/GCD with KeenEdge-BrutalShell or 600 p/GCD spamming Demon Slice (2.40x)

And these numbers are just on 4 targets, not full pull sizes. Of course as they gain more levels they get more components to their single target skillchains which increase their single target p/GCD, but they also get more tools to handle larger pulls, and then eventually additional AoE actions as well.

If other DDs had AoEs at these levels, it would be very noticeable.

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Originally Posted by _Pigzig

Just remove them for other jobs because I hate the big pull mentality

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play with trust then :)

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Originally Posted by Waterscape

play with trust then :)

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I do actually, it's a really good feature that lets you enjoy the dungeon the first time through. It's actually harder so it helps you learn the mechanics also.

its a big issue i have with this game. they seem allergic to the idea of reshuffling skills around.

the expansions usually introduce some much needed QoL for jobs but due to level sync, you can't use that QoL in 90% of the game. and then with roulettes being the most efficient way of levelling characters , it makes you go back into that old content constantly, to play broken jobs that just feel bad.

at the very least, all jobs should have aoe at lvl15. all tanks should have their full aoe combos at 50. all tanks should have their raid shields at 70 (DRK not having Dark Missionary in 2 ULTIMATES is a joke, honestly)

and personally on WHM, the levels that Thin Air and Afflatus Rapture are learned should be switched. Especially with Thin Air's upcoming nerf.

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Originally Posted by Tlachtga

its a big issue i have with this game. they seem allergic to the idea of reshuffling skills around.

the expansions usually introduce some much needed QoL for jobs but due to level sync, you can't use that QoL in 90% of the game. and then with roulettes being the most efficient way of levelling characters , it makes you go back into that old content constantly, to play broken jobs that just feel bad.

at the very least, all jobs should have aoe at lvl15. all tanks should have their full aoe combos at 50. all tanks should have their raid shields at 70 (DRK not having Dark Missionary in 2 ULTIMATES is a joke, honestly)

and personally on WHM, the levels that Thin Air and Afflatus Rapture are learned should be switched. Especially with Thin Air's upcoming nerf.

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That's honestly something that's been mildly bugging me too, unless the job as a whole gets an overhaul [like was the case of MCH and soon to be SMN], most of the "new toys" are reserved for the expansion they come out in. That's why, say, PLD has to wait to 74 to get a gap closer when the other tanks get it 12-20 levels earlier, or DRK has to wait all the way to 72 to get the second part of their aoe rotation, it just ...feels off, like it's more either an oversight or low priority matter, rather than a deliberate choice.

You sound like the run of the mill WoW (former)player.

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Originally Posted by Allegor

it just ...feels off, like it's more either an oversight or low priority matter, rather than a deliberate choice.

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Yeah, I'm pretty much of the same mind. It brings to mind the recent Media Tour comments by YoshiP on ping issues with Machinist and also them explicitly saying they value the perspective of the newcomers to the game because even though they themselves play the game they can't go back and be new players again. Maybe it's a little of why they took so long to make edits to the ARR MSQ too. Their eyes are so firmly set on the late/end game, and so fixed on their own experiences with the game, that they just don't think about other points of view. Or, if they do, they don't place them as high in importance. Maybe it will take vote or three at the next face to face media event to voice the issues directly that makes them see that it is an issue that should be addressed.