I've been thinking to myself for awhile about the monotony of healer gameplay as you and your group outskill content and I'm actually thinking that this might be a good idea.
High tier fights are often described as a dance, which I find slightly lacking as a metaphor. More accurate would be to call the fights musical performances where you dance, yes, but also play music. And your job is your instrument.
Using this metaphor, we can view the rotation as a song, lining up buff windows as harmonizing, and boss damage as more improvisational sections. As long as you do some combination of healing and mitigation, the song goes on. But outside of those sections, what are healers doing? What 'song' are they playing?
There have been arguments whether or not 1,2,3 is actually better than 1,1,1... and I think it is - I've levelled low level LNC during a time where some level ranges only had you spam a single button. It definitely feels worse than having even a single combo. But that is just a baseline rhythm - it won't do much in the end. For DPS and tanks, they are building up to the crescendo that is the burst phase... and perhaps healers should join them.
The burst phase need not be complicated - we aren't DPS after all, it just needs to break up the pattern for a good 12 seconds or so. But healers have a special consideration - they still need to heal. Perhaps preshielding before burst becomes a thing. Perhaps healing skills unique to burst windows appear. Whatever the case, no matter how a burst phase is achieved, this break from the base rhythm would be useful.
Now this is just some thoughts, so feel free to critique if this is just a brain fart. I'm just one hoping that monotony isn't inevitable.
Should healers have DPS burst phases?
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10-06-2021, 02:04 AMIreniaShould healers have DPS burst phases?
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10-06-2021, 02:55 AMAcece
the way other games let healers have bursts phases is that they have a way to dps and heal during that burst phase. For disc priest they had to set up all their atonements before the mech happened. In FFXIV it probably would be something like pressing a cool down to heal through damage or the spells themselves would heal like assize, earthly star, or the big laser safe is getting.
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10-06-2021, 03:11 AMRoeshel
Yes, they should and they already have one burst window with WHM. I think Misery is actually a DPS increase if you use it when you have Mind pot active. It most definitely is a DPS increase if you land a direct crit hit. With BiS it is somewhere around 220k-250k, the numbers are good. White mage would benefit greatly from a buff that secures that the next attack will be a direct crit. I would trade it instantly for Presence of Mind.
For dungeons, you can use lilies instead of Holy to get a blood lily during the pull. However, most dungeons don't even require a lot of healing so you can use them before the pull. Misery + Assize = 1k AoE burst potency that other healers cannot match and most DPS will struggle to out dps you even if they are decent. Potency wise that combo equals slightly more than 7 normal Holy hits and whenever I play Scholar or AST I wish I had something similar.
I am pretty sure that SE has added additional burst phases to the other healers as well. For AST, the new Gravity looks like something that fits being used against ST. If it is a spell that's available only during the self-buff that consumes the aligned seals it would be great.
Sage already has something that should be working as a burst phase with their Adder's Sting resource, though I am not sure how exactly because the numbers don't add up.
Scholar most probably has Chain Strategem expanded on or at least I hope so. The job trailer didn't reveal much so there is that. I personally don't like the fact that we are getting a new oGCD that is not interacting with the gauge. It might do something different once broken but we will see. I am expecting the new AoE to hit hard if they are not going to give them a burst window. -
10-06-2021, 03:16 AMPyitoechito
I don't think healers need a "burst phase" per se. You can look at a job like Black Mage for an example of a job that just flows and their "burst" is just using one or two cooldowns to increase damage during raid alignment.
Have a healer with a burst phase would be neat, though (with Acete's suggestion of it being a heal and damage burst). Like, if Sage had a 2 min CD that augmented their kit for 15s, but also added AoE healing to every DPS skill for the duration of a raid burst window.
The main problem is there would still be the monotony during downtime between bursts. -
10-06-2021, 03:40 AMVictoriaLuvLol play sage
Hello! Sage ... if want to burst dps here your healer Cardia Phew phew
Lol play sage -
10-06-2021, 04:11 AMRoeshelCardia has nothing to do with burst DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by VictoriaLuv
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10-06-2021, 04:21 AMAcece
Sadly cardia is actually really, really boring. It's not converting damage into healing it's just a flat pot every gcd which makes it way less interesting.
A really simple way of doing it to whm would have a 60 sec CD that makes your next 3-4 spells instant cast at the end it would buff holy by a certain amount of pot and add a heal component to it. -
10-06-2021, 05:03 AMNintendroidI think that if abilities that are cycled through during a DPS burst phase did both damage and healing (I know it sounds broken or unfair) and the difficulty to attain said burst phase was pretty high, it might balance out that which is gained from the burst phase.Quote:
But healers have a special consideration - they still need to heal.
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10-06-2021, 10:13 AMGemina
Any phase where a healer can freely DPS is technically a burst phase, and healers have a very interesting approach to their burst phases because their initiation and duration are not in fixed windows of combat.
I know that statement isn't going to sit well with many of you, but when comparing kits between Healer, Tank, and DPS roles; there is actually very little a healer has to worry about when the raid's buff windows are open. They don't have an array of high potency skills that they need to try and fit in there, and some abilities like WHM's Misery can and will miss those windows due to the passive nature of acquiring lilies.
That doesn't mean they are completely left out. WHM has Presence of Mind, and most WHMs will use this inside burst windows to churn out more offensive GCDs. Divination+LightSpeed+Lady of Crowns into Gravity spam on dungeon trash is a very satisfying burst window for AST. And SCH is kinda screwed here, but yeah.
To give healers a burst phase more in line with how they work for DPS jobs will likely not happen. That is taking the healing role in a direction they are clearly avoiding. I think they should go with rewarding healers with offensive abilities, and healers can aim to get those skills ready so they can get higher returns when used inside raid buff windows. That's about as burst-y as it's going to get I think. -
10-06-2021, 07:14 PMCalysto
I think the main point of a "burst phase" has to be accumulating ressources for it.
Right now, it's mostly "wait for the CD" and toss your lily/cards/stratagem ; then your normal kit for 15s.
There is almost no synergy for attack (and not much for heal either).
As for sustaining the party during healer dps burst phase, yeah ; just take it from SGE I guess : have WHM weave 3 stack of assize, AST stooting star regen or SCH pixie mass heal -
10-09-2021, 12:41 AMLaphicetFew corrections, in order.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roeshel
It is never a gain to use misery over glare*4, because the amount of damage buff you need would have to be equal to 300 potency worth of damage, as Afflatus Misery is 900p while glare*4 is 1200p. Afflatus, however, is a gain over holy*4 at 3 or more targets, you are right on that. Against single target, misery is a refund skill that AT BEST you save for a reopener, burn lilies between pulls to get it at the start of a dungeon boss, or other burst window... nothing more. A MND pot is not enough to make up the diffrence, and due to their duration you should just be using it for Glarex4 anyway. The ONLY place where burning lilies for misery is a gain is in Bozja due to the absurd buffs you can get in there, sometimes over 2x damage.
In EW, WHM still keeps its same old burst as before, with glarespam with a crammed-in assize during speed buff window. Nothing has changed.
For AST, new gravity is just an upgrade, you were dead wrong there. AST does get a similar burst to WHM tho, speed buff they have to work for. However, it's still filled with Malefic spam and at best you fit an earthly star in there. It's big ultimate move is equal in potency to malefic so there's no need to use it for burst unless heals are needed.
SGE is the only one with what could be called a "burst", the issue is that it has no self buffs in spite of what was said in past LLs. So its "burst" is just dumping all your powerful long-CD-GCDs and one offensive OGCD right at the start and then just using them on CD until they line up again... it's only really a burst when other people are using their raid buffs.
SCH... lol... just lol... it's the exact same. You get nothing! Just go play SGE and drop this class like the piece of hot garbage it is. -
10-09-2021, 02:47 AMJirah
Remembering the days or cleric stance, I mean tanks have them so why shouldn’t healers? I guess the struggle is to have the healer not care about DPS loss and try to keep their allies alive, otherwise healers will let their tanks die for just a few more casts or procs
If they should have a burst phase it should be very flexible and very minor. Maybe like MCH kit where all your doing is spamming a button and a OGCD, or if spamming a button isn’t fun maybe procs. Several ways you can go with healer damage, but they should replicate the kits of magical and physical rangers, but in a reduced fashion -
10-09-2021, 03:23 AMty_taurusBecause Cleric Stance was awkward and punishing on players with higher latency without actually adding any real complexity or depth. It was literally just a button to press before and after DPSing. Also, Tank Stances don't cripple your DPS anymore either. They're just for generating aggro passively.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jirah
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10-11-2021, 03:34 AMCherubYou don't have any oGCD DPS tools for Sage. Phlegma is on the GCD. Toxicon too. Pneuma too. What else is there that does damage? I dont think anything else that would make people think oGCD. Other than that you got your Dosis and the AoE. Both obviously GCD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laphicet
This is what worries me the most, no oGCDs like Assize, no raid DPS utility like Chain, no self buff like PoM... The potencies are higher, sure, but is it gonna be enough? I do have my doubts tbh. If tooltips are to be trusted, the only other thing SGE got going is a recast GCD of 1.5 seconds on the dot only. Which isn't much but something. Over a 10 minute fight that would be I think 8 extra Dosis GCD's lol.
Alongside Taurochole having a direct heal instead of a shield or regen effect (potentially leading to overheal when you just want the mitigation) and how addersting works and what it rewards, this is my main worry/issue with SGE.
But who knows, maybe Phlegma releases as an oGCD on release. Hopefully. maybe. -
10-11-2021, 06:34 AMSaefinnOutside of the healing harmonies healers are playing the triangle. When maybe we could be playing an Otomotone, sure it's not a piano forte, but hey, an Otomotone is a lot more varied than a triangle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenia
But yes, I think healers should have a burst phase because of how this game is designed. I mean, it already has DPS burst phases, but it's in those phases we're just given a triangle to play. Sure it works, but is it fulfilling? No. -
10-12-2021, 02:17 AMAnotherPersonPhlegma being released as an oGCD only convinces its use to be spent rather than using it as a DPS tool because it's free DPS like assize. Having Phlegma be a GCD action encourages its use to be a movement & weaving tool as well since it's an instant cast tool only under close range. It puts more emphasis on positioning and using it as a heavy weave tool, but also gives it flexibility to be used in other ways thanks to having a 2-charge system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherub
This enables Phlegma to be used use it under raid buffs if you think you don't need the extra weave slots. Additionally, it breaks up the medicorum of spamming Dosis III over and over.
Sure, you can just dump your Phlegma charges all on raid buffs since you can have a 1.5 sec cast time on Dosis III, but if you end up needing to double weave, you've essentially screwed your Dosis III damage by clipping your extra oGCDs unless you have some adder's sting charges for instant cast weaves. Even if you want to refresh your DoT early to get instant cast weaves, Sage's DoT isn't a skill with 2 weave slots. Eukrasia takes 1 second recast on the GCD before enabling Eukrasia Dosis, so you still only have 1 weave slot every GCD in your toolkit unless you spent one to GCD shield for adder's sting.
That means not losing a single Dosis III usage is going to be more important compared to other healers. -
10-12-2021, 07:54 PMLastelli
I think they shouldn't have burst phases. That would force them to align their burst with buff windows, making the opportunity-cost of healing too high and potentially causing wipes because of dps greed and we don't need that. Healers' DPS "rotation" should ideally be flexible enough to let them spend GCD on healing if needed (either because they're still learning the fight or because people are making mistakes) without impairing their DPS too much, possibly with some kind of synergy with their healing kit (like WHM's afflatus skills) OR, alternatively, have a very simple GCD rotation but a personal gimmick/minigame like AST cards.
Honestly, WHM and SCH are set to be exceptionally boring with their new reduced cast time on their nuke but pretty much nothing to do during all their weaving windows.