Clearing up some lore misconceptions

Hello! I'd like to start by saying that I've been a long time lurker on the lore forum, as in almost 8 years long, but this is the first time I'll actually be contributing anything. And what I have to contribute, is this!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

It's a 36 page long essay on a few lore misconceptions that I feel have become too widespread for comfort. It covers the following fan theories:

• The AoE markers that we see during gameplay are explained by the WoL's Echo.
• Wipes are explained by the Echo, as the WoL has a sort of "battle prescience" that allows them to see the correct path to victory.
• The WoL canonically solos all primals and other powerful entities. (Accounts for the vast majority of the doc.)
• Estinien doesn’t bathe.

The document is sourced with quotes and citations from all the relevant quests, and examines the text from all language versions! It also covers the nature of the game's localisation, the discrepancies between versions, and the ahem quirkiness of the journal. Have a read if you're interested in all that stuff!

I hope this doesn't break any forum rules or etiquette, but I've spent days on this project and, of course, I couldn't possibly fit it in a post here, so I've no choice but to link the document itself.

I hope you'll enjoy!

I'd love to see something like this catch on just so I never have to see "Y'shtola is immortal" or "Nael van Darnus was a localization error." again.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I'd love to see something like this catch on just so I never have to see "Y'shtola is immortal" or "Nael van Darnus was a localization error." again.

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Some of that is that literal magic can sometimes make it hard to tell what's real vs exaggeration. Like with Y'shtola. While it's unlikely that Y'shtola is actually unaging, it is definitely possible within the lore, leading to understandable confusion. (see also, Hildibrand, etc)

The Echo giving the ability to pre-dodge has always been a hand wave type of thing to me as it isn't ever confirm/denied anywhere. It's an innocent headcanon at worst.

As for the "did we solo? Were we in a group?" I'm content with the reasoning given (in HW, I think?) that the answer to that is "are you? Aren't you? Who knows?" unless made obvious such as Prae or Hades in which you can see the other players as part of story-centric cinematic.

Other than that I don't have too many nitpicks aside from some inferences regarding the echo and adventurers not being likely to have it and lack of other warriors of light (though I know of only one explicitly named off the top of my head) Maybe I misunderstood though.

Some of what you say is a misconception is really just an alternative interpretation to your own. The AoE markers for example, - While the game doesn't actually say it's WoL's Echo allowing them to read telegraphs, the fact that we know it's possible and the fact that WoL is so powerful and can clearly see indicators that couldn't be reasonably read just through inference makes it a tidy explanation. The "WoL can read how battles happen" idea? There is actually evidence for this in the game with the various Minstrel ballads, which Omega explicitly says should allow WoL to tap into their own psyche and play out various confrontations in order to grow stronger from the experience.

As to the question of WoL soloing for most of their adventure, frankly it should be clear that outside of the two particular cases where this was narratively important, the existence of anyone helping WoL is highly questionable at best. Your breakdown is pretty comprehensive, and seems to show quite cleanly that there was a shift in writing from ARR onwards that was only partially broken through some tongue-in-cheek descriptions in Stormblood. As such I'm not so sure why you listed the answer to that section as being "NO", despite the answer in the vast majority of cases being "yes".

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Originally Posted by Veloran

The "WoL can read how battles happen" idea? There is actually evidence for this in the game with the various Minstrel ballads, which Omega explicitly says should allow WoL to tap into their own psyche and play out various confrontations in order to grow stronger from the experience.

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I didn't read this as being "WoL tapping into their own psyche", but more of "Omega wants you to evolve so it gives you your own battle data but mixed with Omega's own data so the encounters are harder and WoL can sweat and cry during Hello, World".

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It is highly probable that you already possess a record of your battle performance. As such, I have enhanced your base encounters with supplemental data to provide a more stimulating experience. These enhanced encounters would be impossible in reality, but simulations can be sufficient to nurture your continued evolution.

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Or are you thinking of something else and this "tapping into their psyche" thing isn't on the Alphascape Savage unlock and I'm mixing things up?

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Originally Posted by akita_kt

Or are you thinking of something else and this "tapping into their psyche" thing isn't on the Alphascape Savage unlock and I'm mixing things up?

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Unscheduled transmission. I have learned that your automatic memory processing and data simulation function is known as "dreaming." While I was unable to assimilate your self-described "strength of soul," extensive observation of mortal behavior has provided me insight into suitable phrases for myriad situations. Thus, in anticipation of your forthcoming sleep cycle, I bid you "good night" ...and "sweet dreams."

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The journal also basically describes all the savage encounters as daydreaming.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

The journal also basically describes all the savage encounters as daydreaming.

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I'm still not getting it. That quote is just Omega dying. I just don't see it and go "yes, this is about WoL tapping into their psyche".

The Deltascape and Sigmascape encounters are truly described as something akin to a dream, but they're not Omega-given; instead, they're the Minstrel things up:

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Originally Posted by Deltascape

Taken by curiosity, you activate something called the Savage Initiative at a Garlond Ironworks terminal. Apparently a program to address work-related stress, you are treated to a soothing song composed by a certain minstrel, its lush strains massaging your mind and adding vibrant flourishes to the memories of your trials within the Deltascape...

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Originally Posted by Sigmascape

The urge to flip switches is almost irresistible...even when you know full well the consequences for doing so. Once more your finger moves as if of its own accord, and activates the second phase of the Savage Initiative. As the gentle arrangement drifts from the terminal, you are transported to a remembered vista of the Sigmascape, each lapping wave of the song swelling the boundary of your memories...

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Alphascape Savage is another beast. It's the only Omega Raids tier that's not a daydream or a hallucination: it's real data mixed with Omega's data.

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Originally Posted by Alphascape

The switch taunts you. You cannot resist. A satisfying “click” and your moment of weakness has activated a new phase of the Savage Initiative. This time, however, something is different. The broadcast is interrupted by an unexpected transmission─a message from beyond oblivion. A familiar voice guides you in an unfamiliar tone, and arms you with knowledge of impossible simulations. Your evolution is at hand.

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So I think yeah, the Delta and Sigma descriptions do go into the direction of "WoL tapping into their psyche in a minstrel-induced daydream", but Alphascape, the one Omega gives you, doesn't.

English isn't my first language, so if I'm still getting something wrong, please tell me. I don't mean to be annoying or anything, just trying to understand.

According to Omega, data processing and simulation, for people, is "dreaming". That's what I mean when I say WoL is tapping into their own psyche to dream the encounters into being.

Firstly, that's an impressive amount of work sourcing quotes and the like. A very good effort and I can definitely see myself referencing back to it at some point.

Secondly, the game establishes to my own satisfaction the precedent that you receive help, I don't need them to keep mentioning it every time nor explain how they're there. I can fill in the blanks on my own.

Thirdly, and this is something I've changed my mind on slightly over the years, but I think the overwhelmingly vast majority of fights don't really have a canon way of doing them. The descriptions of your encounters are often vague and inconsistent, and I personally have come to believe it has been done that way on purpose, essentially leaving how you actually cleared something up to player interpretation.

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NPC: This will be a tough one, gather your echo blessed adventurer friends.
Solo WoL: Nah, don't worry about it I'll be fine.
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NPC: Quick WoL! No time to lose, the enemy is straight ahead!
Party WoL: With me my 7 echo blessed friends that I always bring with me!

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As for the "did we solo? Were we in a group?" I'm content with the reasoning given (in HW, I think?) that the answer to that is "are you? Aren't you? Who knows?" unless made obvious such as Prae or Hades in which you can see the other players as part of story-centric cinematic.

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What reasoning would you be referring to? That could make for a good addition to the document!

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Other than that I don't have too many nitpicks aside from some inferences regarding the echo and adventurers not being likely to have it and lack of other warriors of light (though I know of only one explicitly named off the top of my head) Maybe I misunderstood though.

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I assume you're talking about when I point out Urianger's changed line? There are no references to other warriors of light existing at the same time as the current single one. There have, of course, been many others in the past, like those who were active during the leadup to the 7th Umbral Calamity, Tenzen, and Saint Ajora. But the player's WoL is the only one currently known, which is undoubtedly why Urianger's line was changed.

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I'd love to see something like this catch on just so I never have to see "Y'shtola is immortal" or "Nael van Darnus was a localization error." again.

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I feel that those would be much more difficult to tackle, given that they originate in 1.0's lore.
Also, I think the second would probably require a search for a particular interview where such a thing was discussed (unless you already have it stored somewhere?), and it's entirely possible that I'd just never find it.

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Secondly, the game establishes to my own satisfaction the precedent that you receive help, I don't need them to keep mentioning it every time nor explain how they're there. I can fill in the blanks on my own.

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I suppose it all comes down to how you treat those first precedents; as the rule, or the exceptions to the rule. Personally, as I probably made clear in the document, I prefer to think of the early instances of help being due to the WoL simply being weaker in the beginning, and then after 2.0, or maybe 2.1, they're no longer really necessary, and any mention of them is just the characters assuming that you'll need help?

Alphinaud: "Knowing little of this 'saint,' I cannot say if your own strength will suffice, and so I would encourage you to call upon your allies."
WoL: "Uhh yeah, sure thing, Alphinaud. I'll just do that! (lol)"

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NPC: This will be a tough one, gather your echo blessed adventurer friends.
Solo WoL: Nah, don't worry about it I'll be fine.
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NPC: Quick WoL! No time to lose, the enemy is straight ahead!
Party WoL: With me my 7 echo blessed friends that I always bring with me!

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I like that! A nice way of interpreting what the game presents to you.

Honestly, I do prefer when the game is written in such a way that suggests that... well, the Warrior of Light isn't some kind of golden unbeatable god-killer, and does need some help sometimes. Because frankly, I find it boring to play a golden unbeatable god-killer, I prefer someone who knows their limits and has to get clever. It's why Joseph is a better JoJo's Bizarre Adventure protagonist than Jotaro.

So, yeah, I'll take the interpretation that the Warrior of Light had seven conveniently nearby fishing buddies for Susano. I feel like the assertion of 'the WoL can just throw down and solo basically every single threat' encourages a lot of the more boring readings and complaints about the game. You know, the 'why did the Warrior of Light not simply murder Fandaniel/Misija/The Entirety Of Ul'Dah's Security And Law Enforcement/any other opponent the game offers up and asks respect of' questions. I think that's generally the thing the English translation especially is trying to solve; laying down that the Warrior of Light is not Superman.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

NPC: Quick WoL! No time to lose, the enemy is straight ahead!
Party WoL: With me my 7 echo blessed friends that I always bring with me!

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NPC: Quick Sidika! No time to lose, the enemy is straight ahead!
Sidika: (got bored with MSQ) BRB farming Anima

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Originally Posted by Jandor

The descriptions of your encounters are often vague and inconsistent, and I personally have come to believe it has been done that way on purpose, essentially leaving how you actually cleared something up to player interpretation.

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Some trials leave no room for doubt i.e. Ifrit normal.
Regardless of what the story says, you can solo anything unsync if you're strong enough (unless have wipe mechanics) except when the situation should be that you were caught unaware.
Even for Ravana, I can also say Sidika called her friends in preparations and lie in wait until her turn to battle.

I don't have a source for the number of people in encounters but I think it was at a Fanfest/TGS or something with Koji and YoshiP. That's the explanation that makes sense to me in any case.


As for there being only 1 WoL, we know there CAN BE as Ardbert, Lamitt, Nyalbert et al. were all expressly warriors of light, same us we. On the source we DO have someone (implied in English, stated point blank in JP) who we adventure with and is a warrior of light: Ysayle.

Yshtola sees her sacrifice in Azys Lla and says (approximate because I don't have the scripts handy):
EN: This aether... It was a crystal of light! She was one of Her chosen!
JP: Could it be.... She too was a warrior of light

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Originally Posted by MercuryD

Yshtola sees her sacrifice in Azys Lla and says:
EN: This aether... It was a crystal of light! She too was one of Hydaelyn's chosen!
JP: 彼女もまた、間違いなく、ハイデリンに導かれた光の戦士だったのね // So she too was undoubtedly a warrior of light guided be Her

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(It's early so my translation isn't the best but it works)

A fun read, real good document.

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Originally Posted by MercuryD

(It's early so my translation isn't the best but it works)

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Yeah, it's established that all who received Her blessing and prove themselves find a crystal of light and are one of Hydaelyn's chosen, called Warriors of Light in the past.

The Warrior of Light is interesting in that they... receive multiple crystals of light? Which they needed to reignite to receive Her blessing again after their confrontation with Midgarsormr. That always struck me as odd, personally, and not really explained properly.

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Originally Posted by LemonJuice

I hope you'll enjoy!

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Yeah, it was going good until section 3. I disagree with you on a ton of the fights you emphatically claim the WoL soloed, but you still did come to the correct conclusion (mainly thanks to the inarguables where the WoL isn't soloing). I particularly disagreed with your assertions about the Binding Coil fights. I actually wrote up a detailed disagreement, but then thought better of posting it(it was kind of harsh). Better to just say I disagree with most of your solo postures, and leave it at that.

As for the Estinien talk line about wanting to clean his armor... well... I couldn't find anything in my LP about it. I scoured my recordings for over an hour. All I found related to his stained armor was the corruption quote you already listed, though I would definitely bold that he wanted to, "Forge his armor anew." That's some levels of disgust with it(like he doesn't just want to clean it, he wants new armor completely). Also one neat bit of trivia: When he's in the cutscene where he stabs Nidhogg's eye, the camera shifts, and his armor is actually turned red before the blood spray. It's some sleight of hand focus work, but it was more than just the lighting there that made it look red hehe.

The only places I have doubts on not knowing if the possible talk dialogue is there, is if Estinien has a location where he can be talked to after the events of the Vault. There is also the possibility that his talk dialogue changed right after turning in, "Unrest in Ishgard," but before taking up the next quest, "He Who Would Not Be Denied." If it's not in those two places though, then it's not anywhere. I looked through from the time his armor looks red until the very end of Nidhogg where he's recovering in bed.

I'm in the camp that there's a difference between a Warrior of Light and the Warrior of Light.

It's a running theme of this game - Hydaelyn's Chosen were once called the Zodiac Braves, but then any hero became known as a Zodiac Brave. There have been more sets of Braves than there have been Calamities. We saw the same on the First - the first Warrior of Light there was Hydaelyn's chosen, but the word became distorted over time and applied to any hero.

Eorzeans don't know the difference between Echo users that stood with Louisoix at Carteneau and true crystal bearers. Eorzeans don't know the difference between Hydaelyn's chosen (one crystal) and Hydaelyn's champion (six crystals, the ability to interfere with the aetherial realm). Heroes are heroes. Heroes are Warriors of Light. But that doesn't mean we need to take on their ignorance. We know the difference. (...Kinda.)

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I actually wrote up a detailed disagreement, but then thought better of posting it(it was kind of harsh). Better to just say I disagree with most of your solo postures, and leave it at that.

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I appreciate your forbearance on the matter.

I also appreciate that you took the time to look through the relevant quests for Estinien's elusive talk dialogue. Seems it was just a case of confabulation on my part!

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I'm in the camp that there's a difference between a Warrior of Light and the Warrior of Light.

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As am I, which is why I drew attention to Urianger's odd, altered line. Hopefully EW sheds a little more light on the distinction between those blessed with a single crystal, and those blessed with six. It'd be nice to know if, for example, Tenzen, or Ramza, had six.

Honestly, if people paid attention, Estinien is likely one of the cleanest characters we have, he is the only character to ever show open disgust at his armor being stained (stain people is not filth) and wants to do nothing more than to destroy it and reforge it completely. He is one of the only NPC's that changes clothes and has changed from civilian clothing to armor quest to quest. Alphinaud freaks out when you mention him not bathing.

I believe that the correct answer to the "do we solo primals" is both yes and no.

Being the reincarnation of Azem, our echo allows us to summon other parts of our sundered soul, in the same way Elidibus summons heores to fight us during the heroes gauntlet. So canonically, the 3 people we fight Ifrit with in normal are 3 summoned parts of our own soul. So we aren't alone, but it's also just other parts of our soul from other shards.

Whilst we only find out about this power in 5.3, we have been using it all along since the beginning without knowing why or how. It does come across as something that was written later on to explain it, but I think it fits well.

During the Seat of Sacrifice fight, Elidibus banishes us to the aetherial and thinks he has killed us, which we see we are brought back using the crystal by an echo of Emet-Selch - in this instance he has effectively raised us to the seat of Azem thus proving that we have been a shard of Azem all along. We were effectively raised in the same way that other ascians are after they have been defeated.

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Originally Posted by TheRealQuah

I believe that the correct answer to the "do we solo primals" is both yes and no.

Being the reincarnation of Azem, our echo allows us to summon other parts of our sundered soul, in the same way Elidibus summons heores to fight us during the heroes gauntlet. So canonically, the 3 people we fight Ifrit with in normal are 3 summoned parts of our own soul. So we aren't alone, but it's also just other parts of our soul from other shards.

Whilst we only find out about this power in 5.3, we have been using it all along since the beginning without knowing why or how. It does come across as something that was written later on to explain it, but I think it fits well.

During the Seat of Sacrifice fight, Elidibus banishes us to the aetherial and thinks he has killed us, which we see we are brought back using the crystal by an echo of Emet-Selch - in this instance he has effectively raised us to the seat of Azem thus proving that we have been a shard of Azem all along. We were effectively raised in the same way that other ascians are after they have been defeated.

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Well that theory deflates the whole purpose of the Dying Gasp and Seat of Sacrifice as a climax. It is no longer a Big Deal Special Climax Thing, but rather, just... the same thing you think we've been doing the entire game up until this point, just with a bit more pomp and circumstance.

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Originally Posted by Merrnryn

Honestly, if people paid attention, Estinien is likely one of the cleanest characters we have, he is the only character to ever show open disgust at his armor being stained (stain people is not filth) and wants to do nothing more than to destroy it and reforge it completely. He is one of the only NPC's that changes clothes and has changed from civilian clothing to armor quest to quest. Alphinaud freaks out when you mention him not bathing.

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Correction: Alphinaud acts like a teen boy when you mention him not bathing… which he is, ahah.

It’s not really mentioned but I personally believe that the scions, at least, bathe whenever possible. I highly doubt Tataru would want them roaming the world smelling like death warmed over

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Originally Posted by TheRealQuah

I believe that the correct answer to the "do we solo primals" is both yes and no.

Being the reincarnation of Azem, our echo allows us to summon other parts of our sundered soul, in the same way Elidibus summons heores to fight us during the heroes gauntlet. So canonically, the 3 people we fight Ifrit with in normal are 3 summoned parts of our own soul. So we aren't alone, but it's also just other parts of our soul from other shards.

Whilst we only find out about this power in 5.3, we have been using it all along since the beginning without knowing why or how. It does come across as something that was written later on to explain it, but I think it fits well.

During the Seat of Sacrifice fight, Elidibus banishes us to the aetherial and thinks he has killed us, which we see we are brought back using the crystal by an echo of Emet-Selch - in this instance he has effectively raised us to the seat of Azem thus proving that we have been a shard of Azem all along. We were effectively raised in the same way that other ascians are after they have been defeated.

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What about instances where we were 8. We would have had to summon 7 people, which makes... 15 shards (8 of us, and 7 summoned).
So, unlikely.