TOS Clarification:Third Party Program

We really need "TOS Clarification:Third Party Program" from Square Enix.

I am really tired of this facade.

It's really too hard to respect the developer wish, and try to not using any third party program at all?

It's not like that new players bring this problem, that was the issue before.
Taboo topic and nobody wanted to speak about it, now people just question themself what is legal what not. But let's playing this game to settle this.

"Discord is 3rd party" <- Overlay? No problem.
"Logitech software is 3rd party" <- this somehow is wierd issue because "LIGHTSYNC RGB Final Fantasy Integration" so it's retrieving data from ingame. *enter combat light shows red etc.
But Final Fantasy 14 is coop working with Logitech.

If it's not retrieving/interfering any data from game, it's not the problem.

Log tracker, ingame ui changer, model changer it is.
Let's see X log tracker program description:
It captures the network packets sent/received by the game and additional data from memory and writes that information to a log file. X then reads that file and parses it with help from the plugin. A website that allows you to upload the raw network logs and aggregates them.

Does it retrieving FF14 data? Yes.
But people misjudge it thinking "its just overlay bro relax".

Sorry for poorly wording.

Straight from the mouth of the producer: The issue isn't the third party tool itself. The issue is that is often used for the purposes of harassment. Don't talk about it in game, don't use it to harass other players, Producers/developers honestly don't care and won't ban you for it.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

Straight from the mouth of the producer: The issue isn't the third party tool itself. The issue is that is often used for the purposes of harassment. Don't talk about it in game, don't use it to harass other players, Producers/developers honestly don't care and won't ban you for it.

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Yoshi has come straight out and said they are against the ToS and you should not use them. You can use them if you wish at your own risk. Also, hasn't this topic been beaten to absolute death? How many times must we go through this?

And any 3rd party tool that will automate the game for you is no no. That you using discord/steam overlays, msi afterburner, gshade etc is fine as long you don't harrass anyone not using it.

Using a macro application for example to automate key inputs in the game is technically botting so it's against the rules (ToS).

He has also said if you don't talk about it or use it to harass others you are very unlikely to be banned for it. Which pretty much says that the rule was about keeping toxicity out of the game rather than an issue with the tool itself. That toxicity can include things like botting. It's about keeping the quality of the community more than anything else, though.

You can use them....just don't say anything about it. He never said you can't or shouldn't. If you're in a close knit FC and everyone is ok with openly using 3rd party tools...that's ok. Just be careful if one person in FC might not like your harassment of low DPS shown in a 3rd party tool.

I personally don't use one (PS5), and I'm ok with it. And if I have an FC member saying something to me about my DPS I will mention it to the FC leader, and if they don't drop the issue then that FC isn't for me. And that member will be banned as I will say something.

Again, it's ok....just keep it to yourself, because as soon as you say something to someone, you just broke the terms of service. Which is a ban able offense. Don't be surprised

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

He has also said if you don't talk about it or use it to harass others you are very unlikely to be banned for it. Which pretty much says that the rule was about keeping toxicity out of the game rather than an issue with the tool itself. That toxicity can include things like botting. It's about keeping the quality of the community more than anything else, though.

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That why i ask for "TOS Clarification:Third Party Program".

I think Yoshida said:
Showing X program on broadcast stream is illegal, sharing screenshots with X log program on it illegal, putting logs with performance data of personal player guess what? illegal.
But we can't just spy on you lol. Be a adult.
If you use it hidden, no data showed, no log upload. Then it's somehow ok. Because there is no evidence.
I really think that FF14 community is really too kind, and we don't want to get someone banned or feel bad.

edited removed bad name

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Originally Posted by Reap00

Yoshi has come straight out and said they are against the ToS and you should not use them. You can use them if you wish at your own risk. Also, hasn't this topic been beaten to absolute death? How many times must we go through this?

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He's specifically mentioned don't mod character models and such, and he's specifically mentioned parsing is just a calculator and calculators are fine.
Obviously harassment and automation software are always going to be wrong.

I think this topic will always continue to rise as people can't separate what he wants to say from what he does say.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

He's specifically mentioned don't mod character models and such, and he's specifically mentioned parsing is just a calculator and calculators are fine.
Obviously harassment and automation software are always going to be wrong.

I think this topic will always continue to rise as people can't separate what he wants to say from what he does say.

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His issue with the character model mods was primarily due to the nude mods, which can get both Unit III and SE itself in significant legal trouble due to their rating, and the game may even be required to have the rating raised if they become too publicized. So again, if you use them, keep your mouth shut, don't post modded photos on your social media, and you will have no issues.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

His issue with the character model mods was primarily due to the nude mods, which can get both Unit III and SE itself in significant legal trouble due to their rating, and the game may even be required to have the rating raised if they become too publicized. So again, if you use them, keep your mouth shut, don't post modded photos on your social media, and you will have no issues.

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Clarifications here:

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which can get both Unit III and SE itself in significant legal trouble due to their rating

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Not due to the game rating itself but because in some countries this stuff is outright illegal no matter what age rating you slap on the cover.

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and the game may even be required to have the rating raised

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I said this so many times at this point that I feel like a parrot, but: the game doesn't have a consistent age rating to begin with. US: 12/13+. Germany&New Zeland: 12+. Rest of the Europe: 16+. Japan: 15+. Russia: 18+ (originally 16+, raised).
They can and they will raise age rating when and where needed.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

How many times must we go through this?

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Infinite times. The group of people on the forums tomorrow will never be the same group as today, and one of the new group members will bring with them some anxiety or dislike or confusion over addons. It's literally impossible to eradicate confusion over this stuff.

We can't even do it in the real world when it comes to the shape of our planet. There will always be someone new to Earth who, unfortunately and for whatever reason, just doesn't understand how things really are. It's futile to think we will ever be done explaining reality to other humans.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

His issue with the character model mods was primarily due to the nude mods, which can get both Unit III and SE itself in significant legal trouble due to their rating, and the game may even be required to have the rating raised if they become too publicized. So again, if you use them, keep your mouth shut, don't post modded photos on your social media, and you will have no issues.

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I guess, the legal trouble is not the reason for not allowing mods. There are plenty other games which are modded to hell with NSFW-things and there was never a legal or a rating issue with that. The point is, with mods you can easily cheat and cheating will make botting way more effective. The bots can skip all enemies and farm the things they want to farm without hostile mobs etc. Such cheating destroys the whole ingame economy in the long run. You could also have some advantages in PvP with modded textures and make "invisible" players visible again etc.

Cheers

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Originally Posted by Reap00

Yoshi has come straight out and said they are against the ToS and you should not use them. You can use them if you wish at your own risk. Also, hasn't this topic been beaten to absolute death? How many times must we go through this?

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Go listen again since you missed his point. If ACT is against TOS then you can also be banned for using a calculator and the combat log. Just do not be a prick.

If it's not being used to cheat who cares.

Reporting literally anyone borderline suspected of utilizing a third party program is just weird, childish, petty behavior. That's it. There's no further discussion to be had on the point that's worthwhile.

Anything that interfaces with the game in a meaningful way or alters files is a no go.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

Go listen again since you missed his point. If ACT is against TOS then you can also be banned for using a calculator and the combat log. Just do not be a prick.

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Give me a link where he specifically say YES FOLKS YOU MAY USE ACT TO YOUR HEARTS CONTENT. You won't find it because it does not exist.

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

I guess, the legal trouble is not the reason for not allowing mods. There are plenty other games which are modded to hell with NSFW-things and there was never a legal or a rating issue with that. The point is, with mods you can easily cheat and cheating will make botting way more effective. The bots can skip all enemies and farm the things they want to farm without hostile mobs etc. Such cheating destroys the whole ingame economy in the long run. You could also have some advantages in PvP with modded textures and make "invisible" players visible again etc.

Cheers

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Most of those games are either whatever the ratings board for games is nc-17. Also, lewd Lalafells can have them running afoul of child pornography laws even if lore wise every Lala character you run into in game is an adult. Yes, bots are an issue/cheating is an issue, but they are not issues for *legal* reasons like the lewd mods might possibly be.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

He's specifically mentioned don't mod character models and such, and he's specifically mentioned parsing is just a calculator and calculators are fine.
Obviously harassment and automation software are always going to be wrong.

I think this topic will always continue to rise as people can't separate what he wants to say from what he does say.

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Actually I feel its more like this topic is always going to rise and come up simply because certain people out there are always trying to figure out how much they can break or ignore a rule before they get in trouble rather than just do what they should be doing.

There really isn't any clarification needed. Third party programs are against the ToS. Now, they can only take action on what they can prove is in use. That's where the "Don't ask, don't tell, don't post nude modded screenshots" ideas come into play. They don't have sniffers to see what is in our systems. And they haven't seemed to be consistent about taking action against streamers unless said streamer was being a jerk so they seem to reserve a little judgement on when they do and do not want to act there. But their official stance is that they are against ToS and that strengthens the actions they can take when they do take them.

I don't care about the developers wishes. I'm going to be real here. The TOS is just design to protect them from legal troubles. It is not a rule I have to follow unless they are willing to enforce said rules. On this subject they can't.


I like the developers, but Im not friends with them. This is a business not my friend. So I will respect rules they enforce aka chat rules and not talking about it in game, but if I have ways to improve the game that does not hurt other players, and they can't do anything about it. I am going to do it, and I don't care how they feel about it.


That is how most gamers are, it is nothing to do with respect, at the end of the day it is a video game. Some people take it too serious, or jealous because they are not on pc and can't make the same choices.

How much more clear could the devs be? They've said, repeatedly, don't use mods. Full stop.

Now, if you want to continue to use them, that's on you.

Think of it like speeding in a car. It's illegal- the end.

But....cops probably don't care generally speaking if you're doing it in a place where there's no likely accidents or you're not going THAT much over..but if you're an idiot about it yeah, tickets for you.

A heck of a lot of people projecting their own views onto what Yoshi-P said. Yes, he said dont use mods, but he also said they don't check if you are using them. He also said what constitutes as a mod is a huge can of worms he didn't want to deal with. They even used porn as an example of their views, if its on your computer thats your business, just don't publish it.

If you want to use mods that's up to you, but for the love of all that is holy stop talking about them.

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

And any 3rd party tool that will automate the game for you is no no. That you using discord/steam overlays, msi afterburner, gshade etc is fine as long you don't harrass anyone not using it.

Using a macro application for example to automate key inputs in the game is technically botting so it's against the rules (ToS).

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So way back in 2.0 a bunch of crafters, weren't banned but had a roll back. None of them would admit to cheating. But the way the menus worked and logitech macros you could create a macro that would craft forever for you. It is funny what people will claim is OK. SE never really gave a reason just ToS violation.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

Give me a link where he specifically say YES FOLKS YOU MAY USE ACT TO YOUR HEARTS CONTENT. You won't find it because it does not exist.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_i6mjiGerU

If you haven't learned how to read though yoshidas lines yet, you may wanna watch more live letters and Q&A's.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

His issue with the character model mods was primarily due to the nude mods, which can get both Unit III and SE itself in significant legal trouble due to their rating, and the game may even be required to have the rating raised if they become too publicized. So again, if you use them, keep your mouth shut, don't post modded photos on your social media, and you will have no issues.

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Actually thats not quite true. SE cannot get in trouble for the likes of mods even NSFW because they didnt create either the assets or mods. They're not made by the company in any way.

Some might think this is an issue because of the infamous "Hot Coffee" mod in GTA years ago but the reason behind and the rerating shenanigans that was because the mod code was already in the game itself and was later enabled by a coder. It wouldn't be the same here as any mods are by 3rd parties not endorsed, created or under the control of SE.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_i6mjiGerU

If you haven't learned how to read though yoshidas lines yet, you may wanna watch more live letters and Q&A's.

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"It shouldn't be that hard to understand." -Yoshi-P

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Originally Posted by Canadane

I think this topic will always continue to rise as people can't separate what he wants to say from what he does say.

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What he said was crystal clear though.
I don't know why people want to understand something else.

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Originally Posted by Raiya

Actually thats not quite true. SE cannot get in trouble for the likes of mods even NSFW because they didnt create either the assets or mods. They're not made by the company in any way.

Some might think this is an issue because of the infamous "Hot Coffee" mod in GTA years ago but the reason behind and the rerating shenanigans that was because the mod code was already in the game itself and was later enabled by a coder. It wouldn't be the same here as any mods are by 3rd parties not endorsed, created or under the control of SE.

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It’s more of an image issue, if I’m hearing and seeing things correctly.

If some facebook mom sees inappropriate pictures of this game her “precious little Jimmy,” is playing on twitter, and goes to all her other facebook friends saying that this game is unsuitable for children, and they spread the news, it’s likely to become the next big thing of “Are games too scandalous for children? this game is extremely easy to mod, and you never know if little Jimmy is nuded on someone elses screen… they could be doing harmful things to *your* children’s characters too!”

It’s a PR NIGHTMARE. This stuff happens all the time, because parents *like this* don’t understand how games work at ALL. Especially online games.

It's really simply: dont harrass people. That's the main problem yoshi-p has and it is only semi related to third party tools, which are by his own admission a huge grey area. He puts out a blanket no but refuses to specify what counts as third party program and what doesnt. Simply put, it's not worth having that discussion. This approach by the devs is honestly not bad, they look at the actual issue related to ACT, harrassment of players over damage numbers, and not any and all third party tools.

Dont forget that he's also telling the people who dont use third party tools (again: term with a huge grey area) to not worry about it. Dont start report wars, dont be vindictive about it.

There are downsides with this approach of course as the game by itself doesnt make it easy to see if you are improving or not as even an official ACT but only about your own damage numbers got a hard "never" from the devs so that it cant be used to gatekeep PFs. Although even that could be side stepped with enough dedication with just ingame tools. What's functionally the difference between a PF saying "provide proof of your dps numbers being high enough" and "provide proof you can clear a certain SSS dummy with atleast x seconds remaining"? There's also another thing, if you know the job someone is playing well, you really dont need ACT to see if they are performing well or not.

This general no is not as clear as some people think it is, simply because yoship refuses to specify what falls under it and I dont blame him for it. Harrassing people over their performance is not stopped by going after third party tools, it's stopped by punishing people who harrass others.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

Give me a link where he specifically say YES FOLKS YOU MAY USE ACT TO YOUR HEARTS CONTENT. You won't find it because it does not exist.

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show me where your point comes from if you are so confident in it.

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

So way back in 2.0 a bunch of crafters, weren't banned but had a roll back. None of them would admit to cheating. But the way the menus worked and logitech macros you could create a macro that would craft forever for you. It is funny what people will claim is OK. SE never really gave a reason just ToS violation.

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I don't recall hearing about these rollbacks I've been invested into crafting since ARR launch but maybe wasn't made as much fuss about it back then.
Guess they changed it or other applications of other HW vendors inject differently cause we might gotten rid of many placard clickers that way.

really we just had a near 200page irrelevant discussion on this and now it’s finally looking to be gone you bring it up again. This will just fall into the same spiral as the last thread on it.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

Straight from the mouth of the producer: The issue isn't the third party tool itself. The issue is that is often used for the purposes of harassment. Don't talk about it in game, don't use it to harass other players, Producers/developers honestly don't care and won't ban you for it.

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That is not what he said. I know what he *meant* but it's, again, not what he said.

It's more that rather than address mods individually, they just made a blanket statement to not use mods.

However, given that there are streamers out there that do use Mods and aren't getting into any trouble for it, it's safe to say they're not going out of their way to ban people for using them.
They will however ban people who are toxic asshats, people who'll scream at someone because they're measuring their DPS and they're not pulling off the most optimal DPS that someone of their Job could...

Altering the character models, seems to be generally also passable, as there's very little they could non-invasively do to find out who has them... "Just don't post pictures of your nude mods onto the public." seems to be the general stance.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

It's more that rather than address mods individually, they just made a blanket statement to not use mods.

However, given that there are streamers out there that do use Mods and aren't getting into any trouble for it, it's safe to say they're not going out of their way to ban people for using them.
They will however ban people who are toxic asshats, people who'll scream at someone because they're measuring their DPS and they're not pulling off the most optimal DPS that someone of their Job could...

Altering the character models, seems to be generally also passable, as there's very little they could non-invasively do to find out who has them... "Just don't post pictures of your nude mods onto the public." seems to be the general stance.

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Current ToS allows them to do whatever means necessary to connect your social media to your character. Hence how Arthars twitch clip got him banned, TEA spoiler that posted on twitter before the servers went up, and some lala mod bans.

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

A heck of a lot of people projecting their own views onto what Yoshi-P said. Yes, he said dont use mods, but he also said they don't check if you are using them. He also said what constitutes as a mod is a huge can of worms he didn't want to deal with. They even used porn as an example of their views, if its on your computer thats your business, just don't publish it.

If you want to use mods that's up to you, but for the love of all that is holy stop talking about them.

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I don't think they can avoid talking about it or taking a hard stand one way or another for very much longer. Streamers and youtubers are brining wayyyy too much attention to them now and getting away with using them like they aren't against TOS. They are. Even if Yoshi P said they are fine (he didn't) the written legal document you click accept on takes precedence over even what he says.