Best designed DPS and Worst designed.

For me the best designed dps would be:

1. NIN
2. RDM
3. DNC
4. SAM

Bear in mind I have never played BLM so can't comment.

The worst would be:

1. MNK
2. SMN(Because of pet design)
3. BRD

What's yours?

I see Black Mage, Blue Mage, Dancer, and Samurai as good design, Monk as not bad design, but in a bad current position and in need of improvement, and the rest are worse than Monk(Bard, Machinist, Summoner) and needs even more improvement, or I rate as neutral(Dragoon, Red Mage, Shinobi), better than Monk but have some flaws.

If I had to do a tiered list.. Uh... Blue mage is #1, Dancer at #2, Samurai at #3, Black Mage at #4. These four I put at the top, as their game-play feels the most smooth to me, with less flaws than the rest. Dragoon at #5, Shinobi at #6, Red Mage at #7, Monk at #8. I put these four in the middle, as the first three function well enough, and have only a few flaws, while I put Monk near the bottom because its current state is bad, more than because of bad game-play.
and worse than Monk is just.. not much of a 9-to-11, in my perspective, as all three have game-play design full of flaws, and "worst" would be a opinion with little value.

Hate these lists as they are too personal and vague. I can’t really put a finger on any job to be “badly designed” but a decent chunk of them haven’t hit their prime like DNC, MCH, MNK and a few tanks and healers so it’s hard to gauge.

Some people may argue on others that contradict them, yadda yadda yadda. All in all it’s just easy to be focused on individuals instead of more godawful “tier lists” or “top 10” due to how vastly they vary

Best:
Warrior
MNK
WHM

Black Mage is undisputedly the most well designed job. You can literally count casts and mana, and everything is timed down to the second on that job.

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

Black Mage is undisputedly the most well designed job. You can literally count casts and mana, and everything is timed down to the second on that job.

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This, mostly everything on BLM has a purpose. (unless it's the obsolete spells like Scathe or Blizzard 2) With the other DPS jobs, I can't help but feel like their success was only incidental or circumstantial, considering every other terrible choice when it came to job design in ShB.

I feel DNC is "sort" of badly designed.
BUT
If it were a healer, then I'd say its tool kit is nearly perfect. Things like DNCs dancing actually refunds the time lost dancing. (Replaced with an effect like WHMs Assize, where it deals AoE dmg, and AoE healing, so you neither wasted DPS or Healing while doing it) Dance Partner acts as a draw from healing effects, and probably also increased some DPS as well (obviously lowering the dmg to either the healer, or the partner, to compensate) And honestly, it fits the rumors of its original design being a Healer, and then being changed somewhat last minute to a DPS.

As for best designed? Probably BLM. but only at 80. theres plenty of levels where its THE MOST awkward job of them all.
The tanks in the game have always had serious synergy problems, and it only seems to get worse every expansion. But PLD is the least damaged by it atm.
For the healers, id say its kinda similar to above, but WHMs "GCDs get refunded" and SCHs "I have enough oGCDs to keep DPSIng" are pretty nice design in theory. But need more fine tuning. AST is currently a mess.

most DPS jobs have been adjusted enough to not be a complete mess, but theres a lot of soul removed from them over the years while trying to shave off rough edges. but id say the DPS jobs are the most well designed of the 3 roles. (I have a personal bias for RDM, even though i know BLM is technically better designed)

All, in order:

1. SAM - It's just straight-up really well crafted, with no particular warts or similar weirdness outside of Kaiten arguably being bloat and Kenki being a bit weird before 64, not that such is a particularly long span for a 50+ job.
2. BLM - Though the pre- vs. post-74 disparity (and the rapidly obsolete skills in general) are an oddly large annoyance, this is still a really great job; if not for its outright effectively removing mechanics through traits instead of polishing their original forms, this would beat out SAM.
3. DRG - Just distract yourself from noticing the skill bloat of 7-button rigid 10-step ST combos and you're golden; DRG has plenty of macrorotational depth in the forms of resource banking and Lance Charge alignments.
4. SMN - It lot of the good stuff seen from DRG, but with more clunkiness; though I've placed it here, I'd still often take it over DRG for the added flexibility and utility of being a caster.
5. BRD - Not much to say here; it has its disappointments and issues, but it's at least a complete and decently deep job, in context.
6. NIN - This one's still fun, but a shadow of what it was in 5.0; if only it could have simply gotten the TCJ change, allowed mudras to queue correctly, and been tuned correctly... without the rotational gutting or reduced fluidity for low-ping players... For those who don't know what they're missing, it might go up a place or three.
7. RDM - A job that's decently "complete" but only from and around mechanics that add more fluff than depth; it can also be a turn-off that its sword is almost solely an added liability rather than an advantage.
8. MNK - 4.3 Monk was god-like, imo. Current MNK is instead somehow less entertaining, even, than ARR Monk. It's basic, plays tight when approaching anything near optimal play, and is still rife with bloat. Also known as "Leaden Fist and remaining RoE/TN charges vs. spin-Tank and/or forced-facing mechanics."
9. DNC / MCH - The first is an ultimately very simple bank-and-burn RNG fest and the second is as shallow as it gets. I suppose they're good if you really like enjoy the life of the casual proc-watcher or ceaselessly cycling 1-2-3 between 20, 40, and 60-second CDs.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

All, in order:

1. SAM - It's just straight-up really well crafted, with no particular warts or similar weirdness outside of Kaiten arguably being bloat and Kenki being a bit weird before 64, not that such is a particularly long span for a 50+ job.
2. BLM - Though the pre- vs. post-74 disparity (and the rapidly obsolete skills in general) are an oddly large annoyance, this is still a really great job; if not for its outright effectively removing mechanics through traits instead of polishing their original forms, this would beat out SAM.
3. DRG - Just distract yourself from noticing the skill bloat of 7-button rigid 10-step ST combos and you're golden; DRG has plenty of macrorotational depth in the forms of resource banking and Lance Charge alignments.
4. SMN - It lot of the good stuff seen from DRG, but with more clunkiness; though I've placed it here, I'd still often take it over DRG for the added flexibility and utility of being a caster.
5. BRD - Not much to say here; it has its disappointments and issues, but it's at least a complete and decently deep job, in context.
6. NIN - This one's still fun, but a shadow of what it was in 5.0; if only it could have simply gotten the TCJ change, allowed mudras to queue correctly, and been tuned correctly... without the rotational gutting or reduced fluidity for low-ping players... For those who don't know what they're missing, it might go up a place or three.
7. RDM - A job that's decently "complete" but only from and around mechanics that add more fluff than depth; it can also be a turn-off that its sword is almost solely an added liability rather than an advantage.
8. MNK - 4.3 Monk was god-like, imo. Current MNK is instead somehow less entertaining, even, than ARR Monk. It's basic, plays tight when approaching anything near optimal play, and is still rife with bloat. Also known as "Leaden Fist and remaining RoE/TN charges vs. spin-Tank and/or forced-facing mechanics."
9. DNC / MCH - The first is an ultimately very simple bank-and-burn RNG fest and the second is as shallow as it gets. I suppose they're good if you really like enjoy the life of the casual proc-watcher or ceaselessly cycling 1-2-3 between 20, 40, and 60-second CDs.

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I know I said I don’t care for personal opinions but this hits the nail in the head

1. Dnc: a nice resource management job in which we are sorely lacking nowadays with no drift, very little redundant or useless buttons and a bit of support chuced in for good measure. Just needs a buff for duties it cant partner with someone like duels or solo fights and something to get feathers with at the opener.
2. blm: though I dislike its playstyle, I can't argue with how smoothly its designed. No doubt because its yoshida's main. It does have a couple of redundancies though and its levelling process is like my accountancy course- incoherent and makes no sense at times but it works. All jobs are like this to some degress except dancer but blm has one of the more absurd ones. At least it doesn't have tons of empty levels with no gain.
3. Drg: it functions smoothly with an infinite combo and a suite of buffs. It came out of the shb destruction relatively unscathed and it doesn't really have much trouble at any level after it gets an aoe.
4. Sam: similar to dragoon its got a well rounded rotation and a few tools. Its kenki pre 64 and its minor drift are the only weird parts of the kit plus whatever third eye does when its drunk.
5. rdm: its extremely smooth at first glance, but its lacking in some areas like its sword and mp recovery and its mana mechanic stands out by punishing the player where every other job does not. It also lacks impact in its audio and visual effects. Its very middle of the road...fitting I suppose
6. Smn: 3 jobs as 1 job. Pet class where yoshida's been trying to eliminate pets, a dot class when that's scholars thing and a build/spender that works really well. Its very clunky however but its levelling process is one of the few that feels good AS its levelling.
7. Nin: fun but only for so long and its got bugger all to do outside of TA windows which lack impact now. Mudra's still buggy.
8. Monk: Its 2.0 monk again! but with a little bit of qol. Still bloated with redundant buttons, a gauge thats inaccurate (there's 7 chakra of umbral and 7 of astral) and a weird levelling kit. But at least it got better in 5.4
9. Brd: it really needs help. Songs unaffecting self and too weak to notice without 3rd party tools, its other mechanics seem to be more hindering than helpful
10 mch: turning this into a warrior clone was a very dumb move, its gauges and levelling suck and its got useless buttons.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

[*]RDM - A job that's decently "complete" but only from and around mechanics that add more fluff than depth; it can also be a turn-off that its sword is almost solely an added liability rather than an advantage.

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thats pretty much the SOLE reason i like the job. :P
every job should have something "wrong" with it, so its not just good at everything.
and the only time i dont like the "something wrong with it" part, is if it feels clunky in some way, such as mudras clipping the GCDs on old NIN. (I prefer the idea of weaving them between GCDs, just wish they had shorter animations so clipping didnt feel so bad, even if its just fine)

in the way BLM has to find ways to always be casting, RDM has a bit of that, plus needing to be aware of their melee options. using the gap closer/escape. (my only complaint being they dont get 2 charges for that sole purpose. atm its just press them when shiny 99% of the time)

Bard is definitely down there at the bottom for poorly designed. It feels abandoned. It has a tedious restart time when there's an intermission because you have to get your two DoTs rolling again, Apex just isn't interesting and worst of all it constantly leaks damage if you get poor timing on Bloodletter. That choice of "clip it or risk losing a proc" is just a lose-lose. Songs aren't that impactful, Sidewinder isn't that impactful, Repelling Shot isn't good, double DoT's doesn't really add anything to gameplay except slower wind up time and more punishment for forgetting Iron Jaws.

And then you have DNC. The comfiest and most forgiving rotation, triple dash, great raid buffs and a decent heal.

Bard is in an awkward spot where you have a clunkier, more punishing class with more to keep an eye on (2 DoT's, 3 songs, constant procs that can't be held and your gauge) ...but there's no reward for it. It doesn't excel over or offer anything better than the easier, less punishing, smoother to play class even if you master it.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

and most forgiving rotation

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I think the basic 1, 2 combo should be buffed by the procs, to encourage players to prioritize going 1, A, 2, B, where A buffs 2, and B buffs 1. if the potency is small enough, it still remains forgiving, but adds a bit more of a priority to their rotation.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

thats pretty much the SOLE reason i like the job. :P
every job should have something "wrong" with it, so its not just good at everything.

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Sure, but not to the point that, say, a DRG's scarcely rewarded weakness would be jumping, Bard's would be singing, or RDM's using its sword. There's a difference between having a unique play-flow or priority to play around and the whole essence of your job being what others have access to more potently but now with a bunch of added restrictions also attached. If you make something unique and iconic to a job, it shouldn't merely be a unique burden, as per RDM's Foul-but-more-uptime-dependence-and-forced-melee-time-and-only-a-tenth-the-available-banking it calls a melee combo.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Bard is definitely down there at the bottom for poorly designed. It feels abandoned. It has a tedious restart time when there's an intermission because you have to get your two DoTs rolling again, Apex just isn't interesting and worst of all it constantly leaks damage if you get poor timing on Bloodletter. That choice of "clip it or risk losing a proc" is just a lose-lose. Songs aren't that impactful, Sidewinder isn't that impactful, Repelling Shot isn't good, double DoT's doesn't really add anything to gameplay except slower wind up time and more punishment for forgetting Iron Jaws.

And then you have DNC. The comfiest and most forgiving rotation, triple dash, great raid buffs and a decent heal.

Bard is in an awkward spot where you have a clunkier, more punishing class with more to keep an eye on (2 DoT's, 3 songs, constant procs that can't be held and your gauge) ...but there's no reward for it. It doesn't excel over or offer anything better than the easier, less punishing, smoother to play class even if you master it.

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I’ve never disagreed with someone so hard since someone mentioned MCH being the best designed job rivaling SAM and BLM. Worst is you compared it to DNC which is always a hard pill to swallow when people start comparing jobs with more nuanced kits to jobs that can un uncontroversially be labeled as a tutorial job. Such sweet words “comfy” meaning brainless, “forgiving” meaning shallow. BRD has issues sure and I’ll be gladly to agree with any once you list some that isn’t “why can’t BRD be easier”

I’m just hitting 50 on my BLM. I am also a new player to FF and had taken a break from mmos since 2018.

I personally think the mana mechanic is the most brilliant design for mage in any game I’ve played with mages.

I say this having not done end game content etc… that being said I cannot wait to raid as BLM.

To me, Bard is the worst designed. While MCH is arguably more boring it at least has some Big Buttons and the very active heat window (yes, it's just mashing the same buttons but at least it's something). Bard just has nothing that actually feels good or rewarding. There's more to do than on MCH but none of it makes you go "Wow" or "Ooh that was fun." There isn't anything that makes you feel like you really contributed to the party. It also doesn't really feel like it fits it's identity and role at all. Not speaking number balance, but the DPS isn't enough of a focus for a DPS job. The support element that feels like it should be the focus for a Bard can't really be the focus because of the design of the game.

I don't BLM anymore but it was the first job I got to 80 and did any of my beginning 'higher end' content with, and the reason I think it is so well designed, aside from the mechanical aspects such as how its rotation works, is that the more 'secondary' gameplay aspects compliment the job. Specifically what I mean is that everyone knows BLM's difficulty comes not form the rotation, but from knowing a fight and timings, and the fact that the job is almost proc-less allows you to essentially never look at your hotbar and focus solely on what's going on in the battle. Compare this with an 'easier' job like DNC, which still allows you to pay attention to a fight and move around due it being ranged and cast-less, but require you to nurse the hotbars with your eyes while doing so.

Best is BLM, worst is SMN.

SMN isn't even unfun. It's just poorly-designed by every standard that matters.

Bard needs a few changes and improvement but its playstyle and way it works is not remotely badly designed in anyway.

ditto Bard is fine needs a few tweaks but overall the job is fun to play and is unique from the rest.

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

To me, Bard is the worst designed. While MCH is arguably more boring it at least has some Big Buttons and the very active heat window (yes, it's just mashing the same buttons but at least it's something). Bard just has nothing that actually feels good or rewarding. There's more to do than on MCH but none of it makes you go "Wow" or "Ooh that was fun." There isn't anything that makes you feel like you really contributed to the party. It also doesn't really feel like it fits it's identity and role at all. Not speaking number balance, but the DPS isn't enough of a focus for a DPS job. The support element that feels like it should be the focus for a Bard can't really be the focus because of the design of the game.

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I’m noticing a disturbing pattern just now, back in SB I used to see a few “MCH sucks” threads and how it isn’t easy or straight forward but the major issue it had was a abysmal progression kit, and most of the debates were laughably bad due to people not even leveling it to 70 or understating the job

Years later, MCH got the lethal injection and BRD a job once praised for its kit is now suffering the same unjust treatment from people that either just repeating the echo, or so used to MCH and DNC lax nature that using a dot is seen as alienating, I get BRD isn’t as good as SB but I almost never see anyone bring it up it’s always comparisons to DNC and MCH which (idk if I’m the only the feels this way but) are NOT very good jobs to compare BRD too or any job really.

One being boring and kinda deleting the whole point of the game and the other so brand new it doesn’t have a camp of critiques yet (coming soon in EW)

Perhaps I’m paranoid since this patterns ends with a lobotomy as so many jobs have suffered so far in SHB

BRD- it’s progression kit has aged badly this expansion and doesn’t pack its customary punch until mid 60s, on top of that its support lacks the engagement it once had in SB which likely will never be the case again. Besides that I think BRD is the best designed Ranged job in the game, just needs it’s screwed tighten, some control over Soul, and have a more depthful support spread as nice as BV and NM is it needs just a few more skills similar in vein to curing waltz or somthing mechanical instead of shallow

DNC- it’s new I’ll give it a pass just this once but ima start spreading that shun train in EW, this jobs progression kit due to starting so late is pretty dam shallow and uneventful, Insert Ciara joke (1-2 Step) flourish is such a game changer to its fun factor that I never play this thing unless it’s in SHB content. Also just plainly not a fan of Saber dance and esprit. Feels like it could’ve been a nice spending mechanic turned into discount perma-brotherhood also fans are too RNG reliant? Idk just it’s still too common to Flourish and get nothing also the Technic burst phase plainly doesn’t feel fun imo. Spicy hot take but feels way to samey it’s a nice base but still feels not quite up to its prime kit wise.

MCH- hands down the best progression kit in the game, meaning skills you get as you level. At lv 50 it rivals RDM and SAM for completeness and just leaves the other jobs at the level in the dust including its cousins...its just those 30 levels don’t add Jacksh** but Drill and BS and just stagnates and doesn’t evolve at all in any meaningful way. Best thing I can say is it’s a fun 50 job, but all jobs typically advance and get new mechanics and systems beyond it while MCH doesn’t. It’s debatably more shallow than DNC but hey DNC still has Close position and some support but god this thing is in a dire need of a boost and it’s central mechanics just don’t compare to any other job in the game imo

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Originally Posted by Jirah

I’m noticing a disturbing pattern just now, back in SB I used to see a few “MCH sucks” threads and how it isn’t easy or straight forward but the major issue it had was a abysmal progression kit, and most of the debates were laughably bad due to people not even leveling it to 70 or understating the job

Years later, MCH got the lethal injection and BRD a job once praised for its kit is now suffering the same unjust treatment from people that either just repeating the echo, or so used to MCH and DNC lax nature that using a dot is seen as alienating, I get BRD isn’t as good as SB but I almost never see anyone bring it up it’s always comparisons to DNC and MCH which (idk if I’m the only the feels this way but) are NOT very good jobs to compare BRD too or any job really.

One being boring and kinda deleting the whole point of the game and the other so brand new it doesn’t have a camp of critiques yet (coming soon in EW)

Perhaps I’m paranoid since this patterns ends with a lobotomy as so many jobs have suffered so far in SHB

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Not everyone is you, or has the same likes as you, nor is your opinion more than just the opinion of one of millions of players.
Your post history is telling.

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

Not everyone is you, or has the same likes as you, nor is your opinion more than just the opinion of one of millions of players.
Your post history is telling.

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Yet, it's a very popular opinion among former MCH mains. The matter just asks (A) whether job design should appeal primarily to those who would potentially enjoy a given job or to those who already do and (B) whether any change which seems to come at (or retain) considerable cost to one side or the other should be acceptable at all.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Yet, it's a very popular opinion among former MCH mains. The matter just asks (A) whether job design should appeal primarily to those who would potentially enjoy a given job or to those who already do and (B) whether any change which seems to come at (or retain) considerable cost to one side or the other should be acceptable at all.

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I enjoyed StB machinist and still relatively enjoy ShB Machinist. The two are not that different from each other. If you take the time to analyze the two of them, you will find the gameflow remains mostly the same, but less punishing for ShB while it also addressed most of the feedback StB got.

It has problems, but not many of the jobs don't have identifiable problems with it, but Machinist has two primary problems.

1. It still has ping dependency, but there's a ton of ways to fix this - the least obtrusive way is to just give Gauss/Richo 4 charges (120s total recharge compared to 90 now), but giving it the Bunshin treatment also works. A more complicated answer is making Gauss / Richo and some other ability share charges ("Ammo") and give them variable cost, power, and supplementary effects, but that's more than a summary can provide. This would primarily be to help the ping issue when dealing with potential openers.

2. It hasn't really 'grown'. As seems to be the case for most of the notable problem jobs this expansion (and even select examples of the 'good' jobs), there's distinct openings in the kit that need to be filled.

As far as problems go, these ones are pretty mild and easy to fix. I consider Apex arrow a far bigger problem that needs addressing, and that's just one of Bard's.

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Originally Posted by Navnav

For me the best designed dps would be:

1. NIN

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This is correct.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Yet, it's a very popular opinion among former MCH mains. The matter just asks (A) whether job design should appeal primarily to those who would potentially enjoy a given job or to those who already do and (B) whether any change which seems to come at (or retain) considerable cost to one side or the other should be acceptable at all.

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If you watch the numbers, which is obviously what's informing SE's design decisions, you'll find that the number of players running MCH has gone up.

This is a bit of a philosophical problem anyway, kind of like there's a shortage of tanks and healers, and changing the gameplay around won't help, because it's the roles themselves, and the meta-things around them (have to know the way, the mobs, the encounters, carry responsibility etc) that don't work for most people.
In the case of MCH, there are just more than one type of player wanting to play the job, with each hoping for a different direction.

SMN is getting their rework right now, and you bet that, no matter how it will turn out, there will be long complaint threads on this forum, and chances are high that aforementioned poster will be heavily involved again, as indicated by their post history.

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

If you watch the numbers, which is obviously what's informing SE's design decisions, you'll find that the number of players running MCH has gone up.

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That's irrelevant to my point, though. You're assuming a warrant's correctness despite its obviously being in contention. Being absent of weaknesses, even if it saps a great deal of complexity, will almost always end up more broadly popular than what is produced by distinct and thematically cohesive design, yet classes with some of the greatest player satisfaction levels (or otherwise seem to be most deeply appealing) here and in other MMOs, especially among long-term players of those classes, tend towards the latter. That Class X has more players now, especially when handily ignoring a hefty population increase over the same period, does not remove the question of whether a job's appeal should be measured solely by, say, the number of players who have level-capped it.

Personally, I would rather have 6 jobs that appeal to me deeply than 12 that appeal only to a shallow degree.

Yes, metrics applicable to depth rely on player perspective, as opposed than breadth's more easily gathered measurements such as level progress, achievements, or trackable playtime (even if the latter requires a great deal of sorting and categorization to render any useful information), and therefore have far smaller in-practice sample sizes, but that doesn't mean depth of attraction should be considered irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

SMN is getting their rework right now, and you bet that, no matter how it will turn out, there will be long complaint threads on this forum, and chances are high that aforementioned poster will be heavily involved again, as indicated by their post history.

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You say this like it's something hypocritical, skewed, or otherwise irrational. It's not. They had something they liked and a direction for the job they enjoyed that would seem to indicate a path forward that appealed to them. That job and its path were changed significantly, favoring a direction that aligns with trends worrisome and dislikable to them. Why should they not complain?

Yes, every preference, every relevant thing one could ever like or dislike could be called a "bias", but why the heck shouldn't someone argue for what they like, especially when systemic constraints would appear to undervalue the position they share to the advantage of positions which would squelch it? Their post history shows consistency to a particular preference.

Perhaps that preference in turn comes from a particular principle or two. Perhaps it's eclectic. The difference matters little. It's a preference they're free to argue towards, and I would think their consistency would make for a better landmark for the job's discussion than it everyone were to embrace the new and work only to address its last few pain points. (This is not pointed at you, Kabooa; your second point there, and indeed the way you treat job design in general, obviously shows greater patience and interest. I speak only of what's generally been attempted to head off discourse among Monk, Bard, Summoner, Dragoon, Machinist, Dark Knight, Warrior, and Healer mains.)

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

If you watch the numbers, which is obviously what's informing SE's design decisions,

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Any link to these numbers? Also if this were the case BLM would be been reworked 3 times over as its not a popular as RDM and even some melee, but has the best well rounded kit. Popularity numbers meta mean nothing

the only reason mnk isnt mentioned in this thread more is that not as many ppl play mnk


brds a close second for jank tho

I think people are mixing up "poorly designed" and "unfun."

Summoner literally has your buttons not work the way they should if the stars align poorly, and to rub salt into the wound, still sometimes shows the animation going off even though it does nothing. Not only that, in an impressive display of design incompetence, it somehow turns a 0 cast time window into one where you really want to stand still.

No other job comes close to being that bad. It's an absolute mess.

MCH, by comparison, is literally so well-designed that it plays itself, fitting with the theme of the job. BRD's burst windows are in fact pretty jank, but at least its buttons work. MNK is also a mess, but that's more because of how it's changed over the years than it is anything regarding how it actually plays. It still works as advertised.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

MCH, by comparison, is literally so well-designed that it plays itself

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I died a little. I get what you meant, but still.

On most other points, agreed; I just don't think the distinction between "unfun" and "well designed" is quite as clear as you imply. Even if the job works with wonderful smoothness, if it's deeply fun to very few (or, in no setting beyond, say, PotD), that's still relatively poor design.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

MCH, by comparison, is literally so well-designed that it plays itself, fitting with the theme of the job.

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Poor choice of words, yes in theory a job where the only action is 1-2-3 (I’m not saying this is MCH only shtick) it’s technically superior to a job that doesn’t work and can indeed “play itself”

That being the case this is the shallowest example, and it isn’t “well-designed” more on the line of “barely meets job credentials” and this 1-2-3 example isn’t so far removed from SHB and soon to be EW kit with no notable changes thanks to stupid comments like this