isnt it time to unify classes/jobs? whats the point of having both of them..

I think its time to remove the classes and just leave a job or rename it all together.
doesnt really make sense after all this time to have a class/job system that adds basically nothing.

Spaghetti code, I guess

ps3 limita*gets shot for overused joke*

I don't understand, what would be the benefit to uniting them?
It would take work, but where's the payoff?
Changing them seems to add basically nothing.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

I don't understand, what would be the benefit to uniting them?
It would take work, but where's the payoff?
Changing them seems to add basically nothing.

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This was my thought as well. At this point in the game, it's probably just not worth taking dev. time to change. They stopped using the class > job transition with new jobs after ARR, so that mostly took care of that problem.

The only thing I do wish is that they would remove classes from being eligible to enter dungeons after level 30. They could have a nice guide pop-up at that point steering people to go do their class/job quests to ensure we're not ending up with higher level lancers/conjurer/gladiators/ect that you see every so often in DF.

smn and sch

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Originally Posted by ItMe

I don't understand, what would be the benefit to uniting them?
It would take work, but where's the payoff?
Changing them seems to add basically nothing.

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I think in a finger snapping vacuum, if we were Thanos lol, you could benefit from having a higher sense of theme sooner (it's not like the class theme is important, because the class identity dies, unlike say FFXI where if you had THF to unlock NIN but you didn't lose THF- I actually can't remember how to unlock NIN though so don't quote that THF / NIN haha). Like to be honest I don't give a kweh, :p, about any of the "classes" in terms of gameplay fantasy or their representations for my character (my character is a Paladin, not a Gladiator, any remnant of gladiator just distracts from being 'Paladin'), they don't represent a fantasy I'm greatly interested in- yet the jobs I quite like. Now the jobs tend to morph the classes a lot already so for the most part it's not really important to snap the fingers, there are not really too many remnants in most jobs as jobs do change skills up over time, and when you exit the vacuum where suddenly you do have a lot of work if you had wanted to do it differently than the morphing that FFXIV already does (particularly all the lore that is going to get wacked).. I can see it not worth it.

Though I do like to see the job passives that 'reclaim' class territory and change it into job territory.

Part reason why I would like to see the cross class skills go. We used to have leeches for Scholar and Esuna for White Mage with magic effects and names that theme'd to the job. Yes they did the same thing mechanically but the job felt more of a unit because of it, now it's just fragments of a system of choice that we've no choice in anymore. Also I'm sure there are a few moments where those similar skills might get a tiny bit of mechanical difference too (some core skills that HAVE to be the same due to balance get to at least have a theme'd visual, name, icon, but there may be a few skills occasionally that actually get to go one step farther with minor differences too).

That isn't to say the whole idea of cross class skills and sub job things can't be fun, but in this current game I don't think it adds much. Sure maybe someone who is really really new to games might be like Oh I know provoke icon, but.. like... if you just read the description you'd also know it's provoke.. It'd be like saying all the healers need the same named healing spells because otherwise the player wont understand heal potency 100 is a healing spell because it's name is Benefic instead of Cure I.

Simply remove the ability to equip any gear above level 45 unless you have a job stone equipped

Just make classes unable to queue for any duties above level 30 unless they're in a full premade. Then throw a huge (and I mean HUGE) sign in the player's face telling them that they need to go back to their class instructor to get their Soul Crystal after the Sylph portion of the MSQ is completed.

That way no one will have to deal with telling people to get their soul crystals at level 50, or in some serious fringe cases, level 80.

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Originally Posted by DarkB

I think its time to remove the classes and just leave a job or rename it all together.
doesn't really make sense after all this time to have a class/job system that adds basically nothing.

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i don't know...haven't they removed some class requirement mix before? I know that the todays level progress its not like ARR classic. the class/job mixture its inspired in final fantasy tactics. I don't like the rename cause will basically... its like asking to final fantasy don't be final fantasy. maybe its better create another mmo with another name than chance core aspect of final fantasy trademark. besides, today ff14 its a huge success, its not wise change a game that is in its top notch success. like in soccer...you dont chance formation of a team while its winning the game.

If I had to hazard a guess, I would say it's kept not just because of the huge amount of tinkering needed under the hood to do so while still keeping the system workable, it is probably also required for the benefit of 1.0 players who have yet to rejoin the game, and could use their old 1.0 character data, which would still retain the 'class upgrades to a Job', and furthermore, retain all their previously attained EXP from 1.0 - so changing classes into full Jobs from level 1 would potentially cause errors in the data that SE probably want to avoid having to fix, and prevention is better than cure after all.

Also, another point needs to be raised - changing it would make the GUI neater, but at what cost? SE would have to scrap all the class quests, and have to make new 'from level 1' Job quests for the starting classes which just violates the lore in so many ways. It would just be too much of a can of worms for SE to bother with, with little overall benefit.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

If I had to hazard a guess, I would say it's kept not just because of the huge amount of tinkering needed under the hood to do so while still keeping the system workable, it is probably also required for the benefit of 1.0 players who have yet to rejoin the game, and could use their old 1.0 character data, which would still retain the 'class upgrades to a Job', and furthermore, retain all their previously attained EXP from 1.0 - so changing classes into full Jobs from level 1 would potentially cause errors in the data that SE probably want to avoid having to fix, and prevention is better than cure after all.

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Jobs that are upgrades of classes don't have experience, and this sounds like a non-issue in my professional opinion.

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SE would have to scrap all the class quests, and have to make new 'from level 1' Job quests for the starting classes which just violates the lore in so many ways. It would just be too much of a can of worms for SE to bother with, with little overall benefit.

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Removing combat classes from the system does not necessitate removal of combat class quests from the system. Just change the quest icons for the 1-30 quests to the job quest icons, have NPCs refer to you as the class until you reach the job quests proper, and give everyone a quick bit of dialog at Lv1 that says something like,

"Before the people of Eorzea can recognize you as a full-fledged [JOB], you must prove yourself a capable [CLASS]. The [JOB] job quests will become available once you have reached level 30 and completed the [CLASS] story line."

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Jobs that are upgrades of classes don't have experience, and this sounds like a non-issue in my professional opinion.


Removing combat classes from the system does not necessitate removal of combat class quests from the system. Just change the quest icons for the 1-30 quests to the job quest icons, have NPCs refer to you as the class until you reach the job quests proper, and give everyone a quick bit of dialog at Lv1 that says something like,

"Before the people of Eorzea can recognize you as a full-fledged [JOB], you must prove yourself a capable [CLASS]. The [JOB] job quests will become available once you have reached level 30 and completed the [CLASS] story line."

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It would take far more work than a one liner to make any sense for most of the class quests to refer to you as your job from the onset, as in most cases you're either special, a one of a kind, or in MNK's case, literally pioneering the art.
"Ah yes, before we'll recognise you as a heretical Black Mage which so much as even admitting you'd be interested in trying to learn the art, if you even could find the locked away tomes or someone who could read them would land you in a gaol, please study thaumaturgy for a little bit, we'll ready your black robes, pointed hat and eyepatch for your graduation."

Few jobs would work without a radical shift as most like the MSQ build you up to be something when it comes to the job, like ARR takes your from adventurer to Warrior of Light, the classes take you from one of many to one of few or "the one" in some cases, most would have to be totally rewritten, it's a lot of work for something they've mostly made a non issue by simply never using the system anymore. Like others have pointed out, the only thing that really needs to be done is stopping people from entering the duty finder without their job stones, unless it's a premade. Otherwise they just stand as a lot of lore from the past and a glimpse into an older part of the game, but they do little else and don't really get in the way, so why wast the limited dev time on a non-issue?

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Originally Posted by Fellgon

i don't know...haven't they removed some class requirement mix before? I know that the todays level progress its not like ARR classic. the class/job mixture its inspired in final fantasy tactics. I don't like the rename cause will basically... its like asking to final fantasy don't be final fantasy. maybe its better create another mmo with another name than chance core aspect of final fantasy trademark. besides, today ff14 its a huge success, its not wise change a game that is in its top notch success. like in soccer...you dont chance formation of a team while its winning the game.

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I think originally back in 2.0 you had to level 2 core classes to specific levels to start the job quests to get job stones. I know back then cross class skills were a specific number of slots determined by level that allowed players to assign specific skills from another job so you could do stuff like have raise as a PLD. As for actually eliminating the core classes. I'd say the primary thing not allowing that to happen is ARC since it has a split path into 2 roles.

In addition to just work, the classes and jobs are often very different thematically.

You could argue a warrior is a marauder getting in touch with their inner beast…but stuff like going from gladiator to a noble Paladin is a bit of a stretch (which are more like the Sultana’s honor guard and definitely not shoehorned in because Paladin didn’t really fit elsewhere).

Not to mention the jump from thief to ninja.

They made it work..and it could be better but at this point it’s better to just let it be.

Personally, I’d just say remove job crystals. Once you unlock Paladin, you can no longer be a gladiator. It just full on replaces it.

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

It would take far more work than a one liner to make any sense for most of the class quests to refer to you as your job from the onset, as in most cases you're either special, a one of a kind, or in MNK's case, literally pioneering the art.
"Ah yes, before we'll recognise you as a heretical Black Mage which so much as even admitting you'd be interested in trying to learn the art, if you even could find the locked away tomes or someone who could read them would land you in a gaol, please study thaumaturgy for a little bit, we'll ready your black robes, pointed hat and eyepatch for your graduation."

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No. I'm not talking about NPCs. I'm talking about the game telling you you have to do things. Like it does in plenty of other cases. "The next [JOB] quest will be available upon reaching level 52." NPCs are irrelevant. You don't have to change anything they already say now if you just include what I said as a system message.

Lore and the class quests. The advancement could be made more linear though, like requiring a job to progress past the level 30 MSQ and equipping the soul crystal automatically when switching weapon to the class.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

In addition to just work, the classes and jobs are often very different thematically.

You could argue a warrior is a marauder getting in touch with their inner beast…but stuff like going from gladiator to a noble Paladin is a bit of a stretch (which are more like the Sultana’s honor guard and definitely not shoehorned in because Paladin didn’t really fit elsewhere).

Not to mention the jump from thief to ninja.

They made it work..and it could be better but at this point it’s better to just let it be.

Personally, I’d just say remove job crystals. Once you unlock Paladin, you can no longer be a gladiator. It just full on replaces it.

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its a good idea...but how remove the need of crystals in game if its part of the lore?

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Originally Posted by Fellgon

its a good idea...but how remove the need of crystals in game if its part of the lore?

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I'm not saying to remove job crystals, but this is another non-issue. Just because it's part of the lore doesn't mean the system has to actively represent that by requiring you to literally equip one every time you switch to a job. It could just as easily be implied to be used when you change jobs.

There are three issues caused by classes that I can think of:
- you can enter level 30+ dungeon without your job
- palace of the dead is a good way to get a feeling for your job at lv60 without having to level it up, but you still have to level it to 30 first...
- having to start as a DPS to become Scholar

Should they resolve all those issues? Yes, sure.
Should they remove classes? I don't know how that really helps.
In fact, the only thing they really should do is separating Scholar from Arcanist completely.

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Originally Posted by Garnix

There are three issues caused by classes that I can think of:
- you can enter level 30+ dungeon without your job
- palace of the dead is a good way to get a feeling for your job at lv60 without having to level it up, but you still have to level it to 30 first...
- having to start as a DPS to become Scholar

Should they resolve all those issues? Yes, sure.
Should they remove classes? I don't know how that really helps.
In fact, the only thing they really should do is separating Scholar from Arcanist completely.

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I agree with this assessment.

Making Scholar into a classless job should be easy enough--it is already far removed from Arcanist, with its own action set and quest flags.

As for keeping classes out of duties, just require a job for any duty over 35. The DF understands how to do this, as evidenced by PvP. Extend it to the rest of the DF beginning at 35. Aurida's suggestion to make gear equippable only by jobs is also relevant; if combat classes can't equip any gear over 35 or 45, then they also won't be able to queue for anything with a minimum IL.

I assume unifying class/job will make class/job share the same shortcut bars. If so, I humbly disagree. Thanks to those empty base class' shortcut bars, I can setup neat macros that let me consolidate gear set icons into a few buttons click, giving a lot of slots for other buttons.


Something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe-Gz_4fZcI&t=0s

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Originally Posted by Momo_Kozuki

I assume unifying class/job will make class/job share the same shortcut bars. If so, I humbly disagree. Thanks to those empty base class' shortcut bars, I can setup neat macros that let me consolidate gear set icons into a few buttons click, giving a lot of slots for other buttons.

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You could still do that with the jobs' bars that are hidden under Share. If you're sharing 7,8,9,10 then you still have a 7,8,9,10 for each job available for tricks like this.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Just because it's part of the lore doesn't mean the system has to actively represent that by requiring you to literally equip one every time you switch to a job.

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you don't need reequip crystals every time you switch if you save all your equips, in gear set list from your char window.

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Originally Posted by Fellgon

you don't need reequip crystals every time you switch if you save all your equips, in gear set list from your char window.

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Obviously?

My reply was specifically to:

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Originally Posted by Fellgon

its a good idea...but how remove the need of crystals in game if its part of the lore?

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You are implying that the lore requires the game system to require us to equip job stones. I am saying it does not; the lore could easily be separated from the game engine in that regard, if they really wanted to eliminate job stones at some point.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

No. I'm not talking about NPCs. I'm talking about the game telling you you have to do things. Like it does in plenty of other cases. "The next [JOB] quest will be available upon reaching level 52." NPCs are irrelevant. You don't have to change anything they already say now if you just include what I said as a system message.

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Except most new players would then wonder why everyone is calling them a Thaumaturge when they clearly chose Black Mage at creation, without changing the class quests but just changing the classes into their Jobs you just create confusion for no reason. Un;ess you plan to have another system message explaining why for the first 30 levels you'll be incorrectly referred to, another problem created to try and fix a mostly non-issue.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

Just make classes unable to queue for any duties above level 30 unless they're in a full premade. Then throw a huge (and I mean HUGE) sign in the player's face telling them that they need to go back to their class instructor to get their Soul Crystal after the Sylph portion of the MSQ is completed.

That way no one will have to deal with telling people to get their soul crystals at level 50, or in some serious fringe cases, level 80.

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That is a bad unless they remove the quest block in the MSQ as well that prevents you from unlocking the jobs in the first place. If you are playing only one class/job then you will usually reach the 30 class end before the MSQ quest that allows you unlock your job.

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

Except most new players would then wonder why everyone is calling them a Thaumaturge when they clearly chose Black Mage at creation, without changing the class quests but just changing the classes into their Jobs you just create confusion for no reason. Un;ess you plan to have another system message explaining why for the first 30 levels you'll be incorrectly referred to, another problem created to try and fix a mostly non-issue.

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???

What part of

"Before the people of Eorzea can recognize you as a full-fledged [JOB], you must prove yourself a capable [CLASS]. The [JOB] job quests will become available once you have reached level 30 and completed the [CLASS] story line."

doesn't address exactly what you just said?

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Originally Posted by Fellgon

its a good idea...but how remove the need of crystals in game if its part of the lore?

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I mean as an actual held item. Keep them in the game as they are, but no actual equip-able thing. So there's no switching jobs and additional step of putting on the job crystal (basically how it already works when you do newer jobs like DRK.

The lore or gear set workaround is irrelevant; it's unnecessary to have a distinction or ability to "not be a paladin" once unlocked.

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Originally Posted by TalithaSolarien

That is a bad unless they remove the quest block in the MSQ as well that prevents you from unlocking the jobs in the first place. If you are playing only one class/job then you will usually reach the 30 class end before the MSQ quest that allows you unlock your job.

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More of a replay to both you and Baconbits; the easy solution is to make it stupid obvious at level 30 to unlock your job, but then to also have a level cap at like 45 until you have you job crystal on. And then do as Baconbits suggested, except level 45 instead of 30.

Alternatively, making gear of a certain iLVL only available to jobs (so BLM but not THM, like certain weapons already do), so they simply can't continue progression as they can't increase iLVL.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

You could still do that with the jobs' bars that are hidden under Share. If you're sharing 7,8,9,10 then you still have a 7,8,9,10 for each job available for tricks like this.

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Not really. Since I don't need to use any bar from the HUD to setup my shortcut macro thanks to pre-job bars, I can utilize all 10 bars for my liking. There is a different between have only 6 bars vs having 10 bars to play with. Yeah, the difference in setup differs from people to people, but I prefer have more than less



So yeah, my point stands correct: don't fix what isn't broken. Don't treat a healthy sheep into a crippled one. You never know where will be the end of the spaghetti noodle strand that you try to pull out and tidy up.


The only inconvenience thing I can think of about class/job is that you occasionally meet a new player without job stone. They are mostly new players and you can offer some advices. Whether he feels thankful or not is up to him, but in a long run, he will eventually get his job stone equip because there is no new skills for base job post lv50.

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Originally Posted by Momo_Kozuki

I assume unifying class/job will make class/job share the same shortcut bars. If so, I humbly disagree. Thanks to those empty base class' shortcut bars, I can setup neat macros that let me consolidate gear set icons into a few buttons click, giving a lot of slots for other buttons.


Something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe-Gz_4fZcI&t=0s

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Originally Posted by Momo_Kozuki

Not really. Since I don't need to use any bar from the HUD to setup my shortcut macro thanks to pre-job bars, I can utilize all 10 bars for my liking. There is a different between have only 6 bars vs having 10 bars to play with. Yeah, the difference in setup differs from people to people, but I prefer have more than less

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Your preference regarding hotbars is not relevant to the thread topic, though. Basing your decision about a system change on how people creatively take advantage of one of the unintended side effects of the system isn't a good thing to base a system decision on. If the classes are ever absorbed into the jobs and your macros break, so be it. It's better to modify your macros to use bars that wouldn't be affected either way, rather than to argue against a system change in the hope that they won't someday break your macros.

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Originally Posted by weebtext

Spaghetti code, I guess

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I am glad you are here to provide us with your extensive knowledge in coding.

The ARR rework should've included a small extra step in the Company of Heroes chain pre-Titan where they won't let you continue until you equip your job stone. Have them frame it as saying that only a proven and exceptional adventurer could handle it, then a system message directing people to go back to their class trainer for the next quest. If a player already did it, great, they can continue right away; if not, they get reminded to go do it.