So we just going to allow this to happen forever?

https://www.linkpicture.com/q/shame.png

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Originally Posted by Rhos

https://www.linkpicture.com/q/shame.png

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Loads of people have complained about run sellers. The issue is the mods can't prove they are doing anything against the rules because they don't look outside the game in into things like discord. So it just goes unpunished. You also have people who don't see an issue with it.

Honestly it's been here for so long that if SE actually did do something about it it'll cause a bigger stink then just letting it there. It would be nice if it wasn't here tho but it is so ugh. :c

I'm not gonna lie tho, some of those names are gold and I want them.

My blacklist is going to run out of space before Endwalker drops at the rate these people are showing up.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

My blacklist is going to run out of space before Endwalker drops at the rate these people are showing up.

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Or you could, you know, just ignore it.

"YoU CaNt mEntIOn PaRseRS iN pF!"

Meanwhile, on PF...

They specifically list their ads in the duty finder roulette category so that they're the first thing you see any time you open the party finder.

Though for that matter, simply making it so they can't make party finder listings for content they can't actually queue for would mostly resolve the problem as the bulk of the listings are made by level 2 alt characters.

This game needs some kind of detector to find these issues. Also party-finder should be locked with req. so alts cant just unlock them so easily. Joining one should be easy. Making one should req. things. Things that take time.

See prior thread on this:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ict-carry-runs


To;dr version:

Selling runs is not against ToS, rather it is the RMT and account sharing that is the problem, which unfortunately SE can’t detect easily.

Even though I think we all agree they are probably very likely RMT, it is entirely possible to sell runs via discord using in game currency so GMs will assume innocent until proven guilty.

Their best option would be to do a sting operation, at some cost of dev resources, or to otherwise allow outside of game to be allowed as evidence for GM calls.

There is a very simple solution to this that Square Enix can do.

-> Remove the option to list PF with Ilevel requirements that are not possible. <-

If they do that, then people can just join these PF when they are posted, fill it up and force the listing to dissapear. Since these listings are done by afk low level alts the poster would have to notice it being down and then manually repost it. Do these enough times and you'll frustrate them out of it.

It is usually the same accounts so just blacklist them and you wont see the PFs.

If they're going to allow stuff like this I just wish they made a separate tab for it.

The easiest solution imo is just not allow selling of all services in DF.

Like, allow mercenary work in general, but no “ads” of any kind in the DF, including services or selling houses or whatever.

Instead, maybe they need a different board that is just an “offering services” which also includes things like materia melding or crafting. Essentially a “/tell me if you want me to do this thing I can do for you. Here are my rates” with an actual input for cost of services. No “see me for details”, and allow some kind of reporting for false advertisement/suspicious activity (eg a gm report option “they changed their price/directed me to outside website to arrange payment details”)

Allow use of outside websites for detail work/scheduling discussion..but any agreements regarding what service is being sold and for what in exchange must be laid out in game.

They really need to crack down on it.

If they really want the selling of clears to be legal, at least make a rule that prices must be clearly listed in-game. Almost every single sale group is discord only and if you /tell them to ask gold prices, they'll refuse to answer in-game and will direct you to discord (I've tested a few times for science). It's like they don't want to endorse it, or ban it, or have to moderate it ...so they've just buried their heads in the sand.

Harassment and straight up RMT in chat are almost the only rules they really uphold. Other than that their ToS has become a joke. Selling clears for cash, use third party addons, rampant botting and so on goes on in full view all the time and is unpunished because the only proof they'll take is someone literally admitting in the game that they're breaking rules. "Don't ask don't tell" doesn't just apply to ACT anymore.

In simple terms:
- All of that takes place outside of the game. There is technically nothing in that advertisement that breaks the ToS outright.

- People send Square proof of stuff outside of the game = no thank you, this could have been photoshopped! They won't accept any 3rd party proof unless it has been posted by the advertisement owner themselves. We saw this with the craziness that went down with the RP community not long ago.

So, basically, there's nothing they can do about it since they're not doing anything wrong in the game. Those posting it would have to mess up in their advertisement in order for GMs to move in and squash it. They probably KNOW something is up but they can't officially do anything without real proof in game backing up that they're RMT.

As sucky as it is, nothing will change unless Square re-writes their ToS to cover for these loopholes.

This is one of those things that should just be against ToS outright regardless of if they have proof or not of RMT.

You know why CP is illegal? Because it creates a market for child abuse. The same way CP is illegal is the same reason selling runs should be against ToS it creates a market for RMT and account sharing.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

This is one of those things that should just be against ToS outright regardless of if they have proof or not of RMT.

You know why CP is illegal? Because it creates a market for child abuse. The same way CP is illegal is the same reason selling runs should be against ToS it creates a market for RMT and account sharing.

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Not a good comparason; everything..every single step involving CP is both vile and illegal.

There are legit reasons to sell (or buy) runs. I regularly "hire" my friends to carry my alts through content, or conversely go on map runs with friends-of-friends for gil. I don't want any of the drops, and they pay more than the marketboard for my 3 maps.

Alternatively, I've had friends-of-friends who wanted mounts or other drops from trials runs which I've had no interest in doing...but they offered something for my time and I accepted.

I mean, it's in the spirit of the game itself to do work for gil: including quests from NPCs or paying crafters for their time/skills. Experience and knowledge in trials is a valuable skill, well worth the coin if you want to get it done.

Again, the problem is not the buying or selling of runs.. it's the RMT or the account sharing.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Not a good comparason; everything..every single step involving CP is both vile and illegal.

There are legit reasons to sell (or buy) runs. I regularly "hire" my friends to carry my alts through content, or conversely go on map runs with friends-of-friends for gil. I don't want any of the drops, and they pay more than the marketboard for my 3 maps.

Alternatively, I've had friends-of-friends who wanted mounts or other drops from trials runs which I've had no interest in doing...but they offered something for my time and I accepted.

I mean, it's in the spirit of the game itself to do work for gil: including quests from NPCs or paying crafters for their time/skills. Experience and knowledge in trials is a valuable skill, well worth the coin if you want to get it done.

Again, the problem is not the buying or selling of runs.. it's the RMT or the account sharing.

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It's a good comparison, there are children that would do CP when offered enough money, it's still child abuse.

I think you're missing my point. Under the table deals are still okay. Publicly advertising you're selling runs is not okay. One creates a market, the other is a player made problem solved by player made solutions.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

The easiest solution imo is just not allow selling of all services in DF.

Like, allow mercenary work in general, but no “ads” of any kind in the DF, including services or selling houses or whatever.

Instead, maybe they need a different board that is just an “offering services” which also includes things like materia melding or crafting. Essentially a “/tell me if you want me to do this thing I can do for you. Here are my rates” with an actual input for cost of services. No “see me for details”, and allow some kind of reporting for false advertisement/suspicious activity (eg a gm report option “they changed their price/directed me to outside website to arrange payment details”)

Allow use of outside websites for detail work/scheduling discussion..but any agreements regarding what service is being sold and for what in exchange must be laid out in game.

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They should make selling runs forbidden as well as putting your discord in the PF.

My idea how to get rid of it. If you really want too? Get rid of DF. Problem fix.

Have FC and linkshell matter more by players needing to build a social network. Problem fixed.

It would be easier to give them a place to advertise and that would solve the unwanted spam. They know people are going to advertise, we know it’s going to happen, everybody knows it. Might as well put it all in a place to sort it out. A job board similar to a market board. All adventurer guilds have them in anime, might as well add one here too. Could even make the transfer of Gil safe and legit, no transfer until the job is done.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

My idea how to get rid of it. If you really want too? Get rid of DF. Problem fix.

Have FC and linkshell matter more by players needing to build a social network. Problem fixed.

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Let's all go back to shouting for groups in random zones? No thank you. Plus both DF and PF are data center wide, so they can connect people who would otherwise not come across each other.

I like the suggestion about limiting to allowable ilevels and that you can't put up a PF for something you can't personally queue for. Those sound like they could eliminate a lot of the problem.

dont mention parses period. Its against ToS and they dont matter.

or they could just be smarter and do the work to stop these people. Hmm. Thing is tho theyre probably ran by the company its self to milk more money

And what's the problem with it? does it affect you? who cares about X paying Y to clean Z. Same with people that advertises their totally not brothels in PF.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

It's a good comparison, there are children that would do CP when offered enough money, it's still child abuse.

I think you're missing my point. Under the table deals are still okay. Publicly advertising you're selling runs is not okay. One creates a market, the other is a player made problem solved by player made solutions.

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No, no it's not. You're using a depraved act that targets the defenseless; actual human beings, and trying to equate that hurt to a video game. Come up with a better comparison, because this ain't it.

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Originally Posted by TeraRamis

Or you could, you know, just ignore it.

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Or you know, people could STOP using alt characters as well to get around people who have possibly blacklisted them. I've been copying every single PF I see and reporting anyone who does so. I'm really tired of that crap. There are days there will be about 70+ parties recruiting at once. Some days nearly a third of that is people wasting space with run selling demanding out of game contact. It's a huge pain in the ass to a lot of players.

If SE gives us the ability to block people we DO NOT WANT TO SEE, why does it need to be the our fault specifically?

If they want a better way to get out of this, make it so if we block one player in game, we can't see anything from EVERY single character from that person's account.

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Originally Posted by Hysterior

It is usually the same accounts so just blacklist them and you wont see the PFs.

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You can make up to 8 characters on a server per account. Wanna tell me how many characters one person can make in a data center? That's easily near 1/4 of the MAXIMUM amount of people you can blacklist. Plus players have to manually keep up their own blacklist, deleting anyone who becomes listed as 'Unable to Retrieve', which should be done automatically.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Let's all go back to shouting for groups in random zones? No thank you. Plus both DF and PF are data center wide, so they can connect people who would otherwise not come across each other.

I like the suggestion about limiting to allowable ilevels and that you can't put up a PF for something you can't personally queue for. Those sound like they could eliminate a lot of the problem.

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I like the shouting for groups myself. Part of the charm of MMOs. I do think these tools kinda hurts the social elements of a mmorpg.


Either way my idea would never work. Once the can of worms been open. No going back.

They should allow us to select which activities we want to see in PF. For example, a player could select all activities except Roulette. Then they would never see these listings.

Right now you can only set the PF filter to see one type of activity at a time. They should change it to let you select multiple types of activities and make it so that setting is saved. This way you never see Roulette but still see everything else when opening the PF.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

It's a good comparison, there are children that would do CP when offered enough money, it's still child abuse.

I think you're missing my point. Under the table deals are still okay. Publicly advertising you're selling runs is not okay. One creates a market, the other is a player made problem solved by player made solutions.

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No, I disagree. CP is illegal at every point. There is no single point in the chain of making CP that is acceptable, legal, or even moral.

Selling skills, under the table or publicly, is not against any rules. The devs have been very clear on this stance, which I wholeheartedly support. It’s been a while, but they actually have voiced support to what they call “mercenary work”.

I agree with most of the other points (using out of game webpages for arrangement, RMT and account sharing namely), but to ban actual sale of runs is foolishness. I also agree that the DF is not the place to advertise sale of things, but there is no alternative.

Imagine getting banned because someone needed help getting a mount and they offered to pay you only for them to report you since it never dropped after many hours…

They seriously need to do something about this.

Okay, fine. let's be super naive and pretend that it's all for gil and not blatant RMT. That still doesn't mean it's okay to flood the roulette section with this crap. It's miscategorized, doesn't belong there, even putting aside the RMT debate they should shut down these PFs.

I have mix feelings on it myself.

On one hand, I like that these mercs are charging for a service. It is a clever way of making profits off carrying people...and from what this community keeps telling me. Most of the groups that happen the good always carries the bad. So why not profit off the bad?


On the other hand, This issue is one of many that hurt wow. So seeing it show up even more here...Well can't blame players for making easy gil can you?


Either way, what did you expect to happen when tools get made to easily make groups? People will find ways to make money off it.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Well can't blame players for making easy gil can you?

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The problem is the vast majority of these sellers want real money, not gil, which is why they'll actively refuse divulge any details in-game and why they're generally advertising with expendable alt accounts just in case the enforcement does decide to actually take action against them.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

The problem is the vast majority of these sellers want real money, not gil, which is why they'll actively refuse divulge any details in-game and why they're generally advertising with expendable alt accounts just in case the enforcement does decide to actually take action against them.

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That makes more sense. Not sure what they can do about it besides banning all carries. I'm not sure if they will or not.

cant blame...some are omni crafter, they became rich crafting, and others are omni raiders, they suck at craft, but masters in raids.

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Originally Posted by Fellgon

cant blame...some are omni crafter, they became rich crafting, and others are omni raiders, they suck at craft, but masters in raids.

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Ya but if they are doing this for real life money. Than that is a big wtf moment, and needs to be ended. If it is just for gil? Eh more power to them.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Ya but if they are doing this for real life money. Than that is a big wtf moment, and needs to be ended. If it is just for gil? Eh more power to them.

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true! i got you!

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Ya but if they are doing this for real life money. Than that is a big wtf moment, and needs to be ended. If it is just for gil? Eh more power to them.

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It's a two way street on that front. Take for example that ads were banned from the PF, what's stopping them from just continuing it through Discord? Honestly, nothing. As long as there is a customer base willing to pay for runs, they'll figure out a way to keep it going. It has to come down to both sides, however moreso on the buyer's side, to not engage in the practices in general. Removing the ads from the PF won't stop the core issue of people selling runs for money.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

That makes more sense. Not sure what they can do about it besides banning all carries. I'm not sure if they will or not.

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Their stance has always been in support of carries. And to presume innocence unless proven guilty.

Without serious effort on SE’s part, it won’t be fixed. They would need to actively do some kind of sting operation and ban all players involved in the actual raid once the “mole” account is carried.

The problem, again, is that there is very real and very valid reasons for using external web sites and organization tools for an MMO.

It’s not as big to me in FFXIV, thus I don’t really do run sales anymore… but back in FFXI, I would organize Dynamis raids (regularly scheduled weekly thing) and I acted as a tour guide to unlock Sea (this was a very complicated, multi session commitment…often like 2 weeks).

FFXIV has this forum which is what should be used for this kind of organization, whether it be in the main thing or in the FC private forums. The only thing we lack is an integrated calendar or schedule book we can write in and view in the game.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Their stance has always been in support of carries. And to presume innocence unless proven guilty.

Without serious effort on SE’s part, it won’t be fixed. They would need to actively do some kind of sting operation and ban all players involved in the actual raid once the “mole” account is carried.

The problem, again, is that there is very real and very valid reasons for using external web sites and organization tools for an MMO.

It’s not as big to me in FFXIV, thus I don’t really do run sales anymore… but back in FFXI, I would organize Dynamis raids (regularly scheduled weekly thing) and I acted as a tour guide to unlock Sea (this was a very complicated, multi session commitment…often like 2 weeks).

FFXIV has this forum which is what should be used for this kind of organization, whether it be in the main thing or in the FC private forums. The only thing we lack is an integrated calendar or schedule book we can write in and view in the game.

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Ya, I think the only thing they can do is just make it harder for them to sell in game, and make it where people have to go to websites and discord like you said. That extra step...but alas nothing can be done to stop this.


Also with us getting more and more wow players and this is consider the normal for them. It is only going to get worse from here.

I already posted the solution on the 1st page, why are people still discussing this?

GMs please close the thread and implement my solution that I posted on the 1st page, yw.