Back for good *Disgusted father of 3*

Well after a long hiatus to go back to wow (been playing on and off since vanilla) I am done. Being someone who does not generally post often, and likes to watch from the sidelines and basically leaving the chit chat and stream talk to the younger people, even though I do enjoy watching streams from time to time, I genuinely felt sick looking at the wow forums, as a married father of 2 girls 1 being a teen and another pre-teen makes me feel sick.

Just needed to get that off of my chest on a side note, looking forward to getting to the end game this time around started a new SMN on sargatanas to get the rust off.

You know, I had made a decision to park my WoW toons and give FFXIV a try because the game play of Shadowlands is so bad, and the visuals are SO depressing. I didn't have any plans to cease my subscription, just park the toons and await better times.

I'm not married, and never had kids but Activition/Blizzard's behaviour on a number of issues have long disgusted me. This was the final straw and I just got so pissed off that I canned my subscription. I voted with my wallet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Varyntheos

I genuinely felt sick looking at the wow forums, as a married father of 2 girls 1 being a teen and another pre-teen makes me feel sick.

---

I keep hearing about how bad they are, but have no idea what goes on over there.
What kind of stuff were people saying if you don't mind me asking.

Also, welcome to Sarg.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Varyntheos

Well after a long hiatus to go back to wow (been playing on and off since vanilla) I am done. Being someone who does not generally post often, and likes to watch from the sidelines and basically leaving the chit chat and stream talk to the younger people, even though I do enjoy watching streams from time to time, I genuinely felt sick looking at the wow forums, as a married father of 2 girls 1 being a teen and another pre-teen makes me feel sick.

Just needed to get that off of my chest on a side note, looking forward to getting to the end game this time around started a new SMN on sargatanas to get the rust off.

---

Get off my computer Dad and stop leaving crumbs on my keyboard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ItMe

I keep hearing about how bad they are, but have no idea what goes on over there.
What kind of stuff were people saying if you don't mind me asking.

---

https://i.imgur.com/Eh1pJkW.jpg


Its the wild west. Its split into 5 groups,

1. Straight up Quitters
2. Playing til sub expires
3. "Ok but this doesn't effect me. I'll still play WoW"
4. Trolls
5. Stands

Are you by any chance related to the other poster who quit FF14 for good?

Kudos to you, good sir!

This year hit the final straw for me in regards to WoW, after many years of playing the game and supporting the company... And even when I left and I'd thought they'd dropped as low as they could go in regards to how their handling the game and their community, new light comes out of how Activision/Blizzard is sinking even lower. Everything about that company is despicable at this point, so I'm glad I've moved on and gotten my friends / family to leave them as well. They don't deserve any support anymore.

I'm grateful for this game because ever since I did, it's been a complete breath of fresh air! I'm 3 months in and enjoying myself so immensely with everything I'm coming across that I haven't even reached end-game yet, lol. I've started Stormblood, but hit 80 on my BLM and decided to get a tank and healer job up to speed, and been enjoying that so much I just about stopped the story because I was having fun doing dungeons and learning tanking/healing. Now I have both of those up to lvl.70 and realized I should probably pick the story back up again! (As soon as I get done dabbling with BLU, that is)

Varyntheos, I hope your adventures prove to be just as fun if not more so in the future!

Welcome to Eorzea, friends!

You will undoubtedly encounter some bad eggs here, but by and large you will find the place very welcoming. Take your time and enjoy the ride. No rush.

Pull up a chair, we get to watch the WoW death spiral from a safe and respectable distance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NegativeS

Pull up a chair, we get to watch the WoW death spiral from a safe and respectable distance.

---

Blizzard's current status:

https://media.giphy.com/media/joV1k1sNOT5xC/giphy.gif

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Blizzard's current status:

https://media.giphy.com/media/joV1k1sNOT5xC/giphy.gif

---

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Goodness, it really does feel like that. ^_^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Varyntheos

Well after a long hiatus to go back to wow (been playing on and off since vanilla) I am done. Being someone who does not generally post often, and likes to watch from the sidelines and basically leaving the chit chat and stream talk to the younger people, even though I do enjoy watching streams from time to time, I genuinely felt sick looking at the wow forums, as a married father of 2 girls 1 being a teen and another pre-teen makes me feel sick.

Just needed to get that off of my chest on a side note, looking forward to getting to the end game this time around started a new SMN on sargatanas to get the rust off.

---

May'st thy time up-on these lands be pleasant and filled with happy memories!
Maybe you can play it with yer kids too, someday.

That said, this saddens me. Blizz was my childhood... never played WoW, but I was a fan of WC3 and Starcraft.

So disgusted and it made me so sad to see so many of my fellow women suffering such things. But it is sadly not just blizzard it is endemic within the gaming industry and male dominated fields as a whole. I hope every man working with women keeps an eye out for them and lets them know they have their support should they be suffering from abuse. So many people will witness the abuse but say nothing and the women feel they have no allies so say nothing until they break.

Glad I do not play WoW or any Activision games. Never will after this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

So disgusted and it made me so sad to see so many of my fellow women suffering such things. But it is sadly not just blizzard it is endemic within the gaming industry and male dominated fields as a whole. I hope every man working with women keeps an eye out for them and lets them know they have their support should they be suffering from abuse. So many people will witness the abuse but say nothing and the women feel they have no allies so say nothing until they break.

Glad I do not play WoW or any Activision games. Never will after this.

---

...and yet there were individuals hired by the company in question making disparaging, sexist and racist remarks on Twitter aimed at men and White people, which suggests that the problems within the company go deeper than being solely aimed at women.

What I find reprehensible is that on the wow forums there is a growing presence of

“this is the normal work culture around the world”

So if the wow forums are to be believed…. Lmbo. Harassing women to the point of suicide is normal. The wow forums even go so far as to say that SE is no better because it’s a Japanese company. They never say it but they use the Japanese word as if they mean something else. Like that the Japanese treat women even worse.

I’m assuming the normal people have left wow and what’s left over there is disgusting. Shockingly it’s a large number of people. So I’d assume for tens of thousands of players, their experience at work is what Blizzard does and they have no problem admitting it is that way.

I’d hope it’s not that way in the corporate world. I would hope that 99% of the MBA’s out there don’t behave like that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

...and yet there were individuals hired by the company in question making disparaging, sexist and racist remarks on Twitter aimed at men and White people, which suggests that the problems within the company go deeper than being solely aimed at women.

---

Yeah...we knew things were bad, we just didn't know bad. Even the most recent reports are probably just the tip of the iceberg.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SirCadogan

What I find reprehensible is that on the wow forums there is a growing presence of

“this is the normal work culture around the world”

So if the wow forums are to be believed…. Lmbo. Harassing women to the point of suicide is normal. The wow forums even go so far as to say that SE is no better because it’s a Japanese company. They never say it but they use the Japanese word as if they mean something else. Like that the Japanese treat women even worse.

I’m assuming the normal people have left wow and what’s left over there is disgusting. Shockingly it’s a large number of people. So I’d assume for tens of thousands of players, their experience at work is what Blizzard does and they have no problem admitting it is that way.

I’d hope it’s not that way in the corporate world. I would hope that 99% of the MBA’s out there don’t behave like that.

---

It's not 99% that do it but it's also not just 1%.

Any percent can create a hostile environment, especially when management tends to look the other way or victim blame ("you're being too sensitive").

I'll also add that it's not limited to men behaving that way. There are some women who act just as vicious toward other women because they see it as a display of loyalty that will help them get accepted into the "boy's club" at the top of a company. I worked in Human Resources for several years, I was at one company where some of the female upper managers were very much like that.

Awareness is leading to improvement in some companies but it's going to be a hard battle to get those old entrenched attitudes removed from others.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SirCadogan

What I find reprehensible is that on the wow forums there is a growing presence of

“this is the normal work culture around the world”

So if the wow forums are to be believed…. Lmbo. Harassing women to the point of suicide is normal. The wow forums even go so far as to say that SE is no better because it’s a Japanese company. They never say it but they use the Japanese word as if they mean something else. Like that the Japanese treat women even worse.

I’m assuming the normal people have left wow and what’s left over there is disgusting. Shockingly it’s a large number of people. So I’d assume for tens of thousands of players, their experience at work is what Blizzard does and they have no problem admitting it is that way.

I’d hope it’s not that way in the corporate world. I would hope that 99% of the MBA’s out there don’t behave like that.

---

Sadly, most major businesses/industries in the US are like that. They all do their best to put up a pretty and nice facade, but when it comes to how they actually function behind the scenes, it's frightening.

First and foremost, people aren't really thought of as human beings, living entities to communicate and work with. They're "resources". Tools, objects to be used as necessary for the "sake of the business". In fact, you'd be surprised how many major companies have clauses in their business contracts that outline how they can force whatever overtime they feel is needed on employees for the "sake of the business". And unfortunately, a lot of people who benefit from that are all too happy to have it continue so that they can continue reaping their rewards, which sadly includes the gamers still playing WoW because they are too entrenched into their addiction to do otherwise.

In fact, last year it came out just how poorly a lot of Blizzard employees were paid and treated, and a huge portion of the community simply responded back with "Well, it's their fault for working there. If they don't like it, they should leave. That's just how business is." Sounds familiar, right?

Because that mindset is so prevalent, that's why I'm not surprised that it's led to the current situation exploding around Activision/Blizzard; it's been such an ingrained habit to treat people like objects that naturally that "objectification" went to the next level. It's why I'm SO very glad it's coming to light, because this is exactly that sort of mindset that seriously needs to change in the current US business philosophy on a LOT of levels (this one clearly being the most important).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alxyzntlct

In fact, last year it came out just how poorly a lot of Blizzard employees were paid and treated, and a huge portion of the community simply responded back with "Well, it's their fault for working there. If they don't like it, they should leave. That's just how business is." Sounds familiar, right?

---

Game development is its own level of Hell. The "problem" if you will is that you've got waaaaay too many people with stars in their eyes hoping to 'live the dream' of getting paid to make games that the law of supply and demand asserts itself really hard.

Unfortunately "They should leave" -is- the correct answer. And not just leaving Blizzard but games development in general. No self-respecting software engineer should consider a position with any company unless said company's operational practices reach parity with the larger software development practice. Crunch and harassment are *not* normal and are *not* a rite of passage.

Also unfortunate is that there's always a greater fool so my fear is that outside of legislative reform there won't be significant improvement in working conditions. Cry "unionization" all you want but in my experience that just swaps one abuser for another.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alxyzntlct

Sadly, most major businesses/industries in the US are like that. They all do their best to put up a pretty and nice facade, but when it comes to how they actually function behind the scenes, it's frightening.

---

I dunno if it's quite that bad. Part of the problem with the American software industry (in particular) is that you have these people who are, generally, very socially inexperienced - people who weren't, for example, generally in fraternities, didn't play sports, etc. - and who have very little leadership or managerial background overall, and they are launched into these settings where they are surrounded by other people who were in the same boat, and suddenly feel like they are in their element and can cut loose. That's clearly what happened at Blizzard - these guys never would have made the cut at any self-respecting fraternity (and I don't think fraternities are some bastion of good behavior or high standards; rather, I am saying that the people who committed this harassment have been obvious losers and trash for their entire lives); they didn't have dates to the prom; they didn't socialize in high school. They have no idea how to act around people or how to treat women in a professional manner, AND they've spent much of their young adulthood consuming (and creating) some rather extremely misogynistic material... and these are the fellows you put in charge of a major corporation? Uh, yeah. That's a recipe for disaster, and it's pretty much exclusive to software production.

I'm not exonerating other businesses or sectors, but I am saying that what happened at Blizzard is a result of about as rotten an alchemical formula as you can brew up. And that's why it was so systemic, and not limited to a few bad actors. These people are closet-case geeks on a power trip, and it shows.

As an example of what a non game development software team can be like - I work for a state government. We develop our own in house software. I'm a business analyst - I gather requirements and write out software specs. It is not games, it is very boring custom business software used various state governments and universities. I work from 8AM to 5PM most days. My job permanently moved to work from home this last year. I am salaried, so I have unlimited break time. I like my boss. All the guys in my department are married with kids, and they're respectful of me and the other woman in the team. Everyone works hard, but no one really does more or less work than the others since we all have our own little bubbles. And I'm paid quite well for the area, although I'd definitely make more working for a private company. In exchange for less pay though, I've got vacation hours coming out of my ears, so my stress levels are pretty low these days.

Everyone wants to go into video games because it's dream job and they're passionate about doing it, but the result is a labor glut and a culture of exploitation. I'm a lot happier working on business software and having the time to play and enjoy video games, than I would be working on video games and ending up hating them.

Damn, even here I STILL can't escape the WoW lawsuit posts.

And as was said in another post there are many businesses who subscribe to the good old boy culture. I'm sorry if that sounds cliche and I'm not trying to insult anyone. From my own perspective I was in middle management it's where many women end up. Usually the top managers are men and those women who do make it to upper unless the president of the company is a women will have a hard time. Because many of those men golf together or go out for drinks or see a sporting event. I have seen this time and time again. Watched women who were my boss passed over for promo or an award because they were not friends with the company president or CEO. It still happens the attitude can be awful. One of my co workers called me his work wife, I was like wtf, the he proceeded to tell me the person who had my job prior Christmas shopped for him for his wife and asked me if I would do that too. Needless to say what I said I won't repeat, but he didn't ask again.