https://i.imgur.com/rplEofC.jpg
Is this the general understanding of what hardcore players and statics are? Seems a bit too extreme for me and rather unhealthy for the mind and body alike.
Also, If you have to invest 10 hours or even more to clear a raid tier as a static on week 1, doesn't this mean that the players are slow learners? I by no means claim to be a fast learner but it is just strange for me that someone who needs 10h+ to learn ten mins scripted fight expects fast learners to join him. If 10hours is fast then what is considered slow? Are the savage raids on week 1 that hard? I really want to find out.
What is a HC player?
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07-22-2021, 04:25 AMRoeshelWhat is a HC player?
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07-22-2021, 04:27 AMAyuhra
10 hours a DAY? If I played that often I wouldn't be working and wouldn't be able to afford the sub (or y'know anything else).
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07-22-2021, 04:30 AMMPK
Yeah that sounds about right. Welcome to week 1 raiding. I would never do something like that so I do not consider myself a hardcore raider. It's so odd how people think people who do ultimate or w/e are hardcore but in reality, what ever is shown in OP is what HC raiding really is.
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07-22-2021, 04:31 AMValkyrie_Lenneth
As much as I enjoy raiding and XIV, I would never join a static like that.
I much prefer a chill raiding environment, stressing over fast clears isn't for me. -
07-22-2021, 04:33 AMLianaThorne
It's obviously not meant for those with a normal life schedule/social life/family/etc. There are people out there (like myself) who have the time to put into a static like this. I'm just good on living for raiding, if you get my meaning.
Also, in terms of needing 10h+ days, I know some statics that struggle to get their clears after months of trying. They aren't easy fights for everyone. This static in particular looks like a group that is going for 1st/wants all of the new stuff immediately. This isn't the way all statics are, however hardcore statics do have the most rules/requirements. -
07-22-2021, 04:37 AMMoofiaBossValThis. When new raids come out in WoW, the people racing for world first book days off and stay up all day and all night raiding over the weekend and into the week until they finish. It's a marathon.Quote:
Originally Posted by MPK
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07-22-2021, 05:03 AMItMe
I week 1 pugged Savage in solo que at 4 hours a day so if they need 10 something is weird...
Everyone's definition of HC is a little different, but my they seem to be on an extreme end...
Unless they're racing for the clear (which it doesn't sound like since they're talking about split clearing on ALTs) there's really no need for that brutal timetable. -
07-22-2021, 05:13 AMCaedemSanguis
They are a lot of HC raider that have social life, family, girls friends, jobs, studies, etc
To my mind its more about priority -
07-22-2021, 05:18 AMCaedemSanguis
I have been in HC static during SB/ShB and I still consider myself as a casual (I raid a lot during a few days per year, and beside those periods I log 3 hours a week for the weeklies), Unsubbed till Februrary, recently came back in game and will unsub in two weeks
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07-22-2021, 05:33 AMTroySoFab
I learned recently that what this game's community considers HC, and what MMOs consider HC is pretty different. HC here typically refers to 'skill level' and not much emphasis on time invested. HC in other games usually just refers to time invested, as in the picture you used. I don't think this time investment lasts indefinitely, once the tier is cleared you just meet up to clear for the week and leave.
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07-22-2021, 05:36 AMRoeshelIdk... the reason why I haven't joined a static is because I can't play when I want to play, I have to adjust my entertainment time to match the entertainment time of the other seven members. I was invited to join my fc static in may but I declined. I wanted to start to jump from dungeons to savage raids, because they give the best gear. They wanted mount farms so they started with extreme trials and then moved to savage. They have been on e9s for one month. I wouldn't say that they are really struggling with getting a clear, I think they are not seriously trying. Because the guides are out, the savage raids are a lot simpler. From what I've seen, the normal versions have almost all mechanics. In savage, they remain the same or are slightly upgraded and there is a couple of unique mechanics that you can't see in the normal version at all. I realized that a bit too late though. In any case, if you really want to get a clear in one-two days you just need to kinda study the fight. If a static is stuck on the same thing for so long they just need to stop trying and start thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by LianaThorne
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07-22-2021, 05:38 AMTaleraRistain
Maybe world firsts so they're taking time off work and such? Some folks here do that I believe.
And it says 10+ hours but not how many nights. So it may not be an every night thing.
From the schedules of my friends who do Savage, this does seem a little extreme if it's every night, unless they are pushing really really hard for world firsts. This reminds me of my EQ raiding days. I guess that warped me a bit because 10+ hours doesn't raise my eyebrows that much O_O -
07-22-2021, 05:42 AMKobalos
10 hours a day!? F to those that have work and families I guess.
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07-22-2021, 05:43 AMtechnole
HC in static recruiting means raid speed/time in this game.
So 8-10 hours a day for the first week is "hardcore" progression. There is usually an expectation to clear all the floors in that time span. Minimum ilevel savage raiding is actually more difficult than say a month or two or more in because you have to rely on crafted gear to clear the last fights
Plenty of people today likely can't clear E12S in full i510 gear. Like the fight is much different with 15% echo and i530 gear over full-crafted i510. So there are expectations of having a full understanding of one's job to do the most damage possible along with blind progression. -
07-22-2021, 05:52 AMSturmChurro
10 hours a day isn't that much, specifically if you don't have any other priorities at the time. I'll put that much into a game from time to time. Not as often as I used to though. I definitely wouldn't want to be committed to doing it with a static, that's just asking for burnout.
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07-22-2021, 05:52 AMVirusOnlineI'm not sure if you're new to FFXIV. I am only assuming based on your join date, but it is perfectly fine to raid via PF.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roeshel
There exist statics who will say they are casual/MC/HC. It's perfectly fine to decline your FC if their goals don't match yours. What a lot of raiders, new or new to FFXIV, don't understand is that joining a static goes both ways. You must make sure it's a perfect fit for both the person trying out and the static. Do they want someone who is the best ? Do you want a static that can consistently clear ?
Also, it's not too late.
We quite literally have months.
Make your own party in PF and label it as practice and voila.
It will take some time, surely, but isn't that part of the [savage] game ? -
07-22-2021, 05:54 AMArtemiz
In my opinion a hardcore player is a mixture of time investment, content done and priority (life vs the game)
Skill level and knowledge are usually products of being hardcore but not always. -
07-22-2021, 05:59 AMLianaThorneIf a game is someone's priority when they have a family, gf/bf/partner, job, college/schoolwork to balance as well then I'm genuinely concerned for their mental/physical health and wonder if they miss sleeping.Quote:
Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis
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07-22-2021, 06:12 AMLianaThorneI'm gonna just say this: experience it for yourself before you make assumptions about how it actually is because your perspective is a bit off. Yeah statics will have a specific time set that you run the raid (also a reason why I dropped out of a static cause I like having my time to do what I want), so if you want to do it at your own pace I would heavily rely on Party Finder groups (not Duty Finder) and get into the groove of making your own parties as well depending on how far into each savage you are. However, be prepared to make absolutely no progress with some parties you get into because that's just what happens sometimes. Ya'll will wipe once just because someone snuck into your party that wasn't prepared and people will leave. You could have everyone that knows what they're doing and still have someone have an off day and not get your clear. It's not as simple as studying it and being done in 1-2 days because you definitely will not be with the same people every time you run E9S (for example) through PF. That's the benefit to having a static. Even still, you can have people in a static that take longer than others to get used to the mechanics (for example with healing/dps checks or things that have really tight timing) and that will hold up progress.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roeshel
In terms of difficulty, this is where I think you're underestimating things a bit but if you think it will be easy for you then fair enough. Like I said, I would experience it for yourself because you're basing what savage is on video guides. Seeing and doing are VERY different. -
07-22-2021, 06:26 AMCatwho
Yep, world firsters are like that.
I'm in a much more casual Savage static and we just pick at fights one lockout each week. No rush, no hurry. We're doing it for the fun, not the glory. And we all have jobs that preclude wasting a week of vacation after a patch drops, so we're not doing that either. -
07-22-2021, 06:49 AMArillyn
As others have said, I would expect this to be a static possibly trying for a world first. And many statics going for world firsts will take the first week off when a new savage drops.
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07-22-2021, 06:58 AMMPKMight not be a world first team, could just easily be a week 1 staticQuote:
Originally Posted by Arillyn
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07-22-2021, 09:17 AMDragonblanco
As you see by posts here, the terminology is divided. Originally hardcore meant that the game was priority in your life. You might work and all, but you'd call out sick or request time off for some things. You'd stay up all night and go without sleep because raiding was more important than sleep. Obviously within that mindset often was young kids and people under the age of 25 overall. Not to say we didn't have older, but that's what it consisted of. Of course, usually it was moreso joked about in saying WoW > life or whatever, but it was also a culture saying to fit in the time you can. If you want to be the best at anything, you have to put in the time.
Opposite of hardcore was causals. For casuals, life takes priority over anything else. They log in and will push whatever content they can, but they aren't sweating it. They have kids, jobs, or whatever else. They are the "responsible" people. Yet because they couldn't put in time, they usually didn't always remember fights, lacked in gear (because they couldn't push content to get the best), and often started to fall behind compared to "hardcore" players. This difference between gear and experience made it difficult for hardcore players and casuals to play together.
That said, specifying you must do 10+ hours a day doesn't quite fit the traditional hardcore. I mean, it does, but to the extreme. And as mentioned in OP, it speaks for a lack of skills and communication. True hardcore gamers with their salt will attempt a few times, which might be like 10+ hours on those days, but then you break. During that break, you'll have people analyzing logs, watching the videos, and discussing possible strategies. You upgrade gear or improve on your rotation, but also try to relax and maybe do some other stuff. Then you get together and run again.
For example, back when I was part of a guild that consistently got World First and sold raid carries to others, this was something of our schedule: (not exact, but to kind of show)
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Monday: Mythic runs 6pm-midnight
Tuesday: Rated Battlegrounds 6pm-11pm
Wednesday: Raid Carry for newbies (new people in guild, to gear them up) 5pm-midnight
Thursday: Guild event like lottery, mount farm, or whatever else. Also crafting night to make sure we had potions, elixirs, etc for the weekend
Friday: Current Raid Progression: 6pm-midnight (Once we first part of content and had it on farm, this turned into selling runs/carries)
Saturday: Current Raid Progression: 6pm-4am (We'd run multiple groups. Just like prior, some spots would be sold for carries or would have newer players just to gear them up for harder content)
Sunday: Random...sometimes we'd push content more if we hadn't finished. Other times was just like a do whatever day. Or we'd end up doing stuff like guild pvp tournament and stuff. But it always varied.
*NOTE* When I show like 6+ hours of stuff, it wasn't always same people there all the time. Sometimes people would leave or join us within those times due to work or other things. Also important to note that schedule was just for people who wanted to raid. There were other events and things going on for lower level players and those who weren't looking just at end game. That said, some of us would also get together outside of those scheduled times to run with PUGS, friends in other guilds, or whatever.
But yeah, we'd do a good 3-5 days of raiding, which could get old. But we were big enough that we'd rotate around. We started with one static group but built it up to running multiple. Some individuals might have pushed longer hours like your recruit message. Main idea is that is more "extreme" and you're essentially seeing someone trying to be "competitive" hardcore. They are hoping by tossing in all the time, they'll do better than others. Sometimes it works, but sometimes they start screwing up because they repeat too much and just drain themselves. It's hard to find good balance between hitting progression but also being mindful of how your mind and body operate. Screw up on one end and you'll fall behind. Screw up on the other and you'll constantly wipe and make mistakes. -
07-22-2021, 09:18 AMRoeshelI can spend 10 hours playing a game on the weekends but not actively playing it if you get what I mean. For example, if I use df for a dungeon as dps I wait 20 mins in a queue and actually play 15-20 mins in the dungeon. So in the 20 mins I was waiting I was doing something else completely unrelated to the game and maybe I was even afk. When doing savage you have to pay so much attention when you are still learning. I am no longer enjoying myself if I have to do it for more than 2-3 hours of actively playing. I can push myself to get the clear a day earlier but what's the point? I will wake up with a headache and feel like crap throughout the whole day because instead of sleeping I was raiding.Quote:
Originally Posted by SturmChurro
Quote:
Originally Posted by VirusOnline
I made parties for X mechanic onwards, we play, we wipe, we play, someone leaves, I recruit more ppl, repeat. When I am confident enough(seen enrage), PF becomes a clear party. Obviously, not everybody is welcomed, you need enrage experience or a clear. I usually played on the weekends for progging because parties filled up quicker, and there were more practice parties as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by LianaThorne
The most difficult raid was the Oracle of Darkness because it was locked behind another raid boss and it had no normal raid version. I needed 3 more days of progging to get clear of e12s part two after clearing part one. I must mention that by the time I sat down to learn e12s' guide they already enabled the echo which gave us 10% boost to stats but I still think that I would have been able to get the clear if they postponed their patch.
I am basing what savage is on my personal experience with pf. I get that not everyone has had the same experience. And I know that people who are more willing to kick other players during pf practice groups are more often than not bad players, who are frustrated immensely at their lack of skills so they get pissed when someone else makes a mistake before the X mechanic in the pf. I've been kicked twice from pf practice groups. Once it was by a tank who was progging e12s relativities for 2 whole weeks. The other, well..., a player who currently has 27 echo runs on e12s, part 2 is all gray logs, you can imagine how it was when we were doing practice. This speaks a lot more than I can say. He did tell me that he sits 6h+ per day to get a clear. I assume he wasted a lot of days, trying to get his clear. He wastes his time meaninglessly. Instead of taking a break, think, reflect on his mistakes and his rotation, he just spams savage, without any improvement.
In any case, when Endwalker drops, I hope that the gameplay of the healer classes is going to be more interesting because I won't be creating ten alts to do the raids because the loot is restricted, grinding is not what keeps me in a game, it's gameplay. I literally unsubbed because in the hardest raid I hated the excessive amount of clipping caused by the constant need for movement. WHM is or more like was my main. I am definitely changing to other healer classes if it remains the way it is right now. -
07-22-2021, 11:29 AMCaedemSanguisYou can ask Sco or Gingi from wow, about their physical/mental health :pQuote:
Originally Posted by LianaThorne
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07-22-2021, 12:27 PMSturmChurroI have the time to do it fairly regularly, but I usually only do it on anticipated game releases, updates/expansions, or just generally if I'm really into something. Launch of Zadnor I spent probably 10+ hours in there for a few days, for example. I simply lack the interest most of the time. In regards to raiding yeah, it's actually what burned me out of doing harder content in ShB. I was spending 10+ hours a day during and after ShB launch doing extremes and trying to farm the mount(s), I even dabbled in savage prog. I just don't have the tolerance I used to when I was younger, in terms of grinding content like this nonstop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roeshel
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07-22-2021, 12:41 PMFawkesThey can both be hardcore.Quote:
Originally Posted by MPK
Just like how someone who only dabbles in late savage well after it's been all figured out could be a casual, and someone who thinks 24 man raids are too hard and only runs dungeons is casual. -
07-24-2021, 04:12 AMAwhaI can see this being the standard for week one or work first groups, especially with ultimate taking time off from work is not unheard of. Generally the extreme aspect is probably relative to the group I know of some players in other games that would think 10+ hours is rather lax while others it is extreme. Depends on the person and many other factor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roeshel
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07-24-2021, 05:03 AMDreamsoap
I knew someone who told me they did 16 hour ultimate prog days. 5 days a week. He lost his gilrfriend and one static member was at risk of losing their leg.
Don't do games, kids. -
07-24-2021, 05:25 AMAkiudodon't want to dimish your achievement, you worked to kill e12s, you killed e12s, kudos to you, BUTQuote:
Originally Posted by Roeshel
after echo so realistically with a group where everyone was at least close to 530 and with knowledge of how the fight works (you know, allready read a guide).
you really don't see how doing it with 15-20 itemlevels less (and no echo) and while not being able to fall back on allready established tactics will take a lot more time ? and i mean a lot ?. even if everyone played literally perfect the idea of "learning a 10 minute scripted fight" would be a lot to simply as you actively have to figure out just how stuff is even supposed to work.
imagine you are 8 minute into any fight and some big really complicated mechanic pops up wiping you instantly. it will now take you 8 minutes every single time you even want to see the mechanic to have any chance to practice said coreography, and it will surely take more than 1 try to actually figure out just how to handle stuff, and thats for one mechanic and assuming literally no one messes up, ever, even after hours of concentrating to the max. -
07-24-2021, 07:57 AMAelin_Ashryver
Hardcore varies depending what stage of life you are on I feel.. A young teen on holidays can easily put 10h+ in. Or I guess if you are unemployed there is that too! I always found MMO players version of harcore always took more hours due to the nature of the genre as well.
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07-24-2021, 09:41 AMTlachtga
its more of a mindset or approach to fights rather than time invested.
that 10 hrs a day is normal in XIV for world first groups, and some week 1 groups. it sounds very extreme, but generally these groups only need 1-3 days to kill a raid tier. -
07-24-2021, 10:05 AMRoeshelYes, I know that doing it with weaker gear would be a lot harder but... it is a static. Players in static should be more organized than a random pf group.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiudo
I think the smart way to prog savage without guides is to visually record your pulls and each time you encounter a new mechanic and you wipe, watch the replay, observe the last mechanic, see if it is in any way similar to the normal version of the raid, think of ways to solve it and then try and see if your solution was the correct one. It is better than just wiping again to see 4-5secs of the last mechanic. A static should be able to have at least this bare minimum of additional coordination and utilize it, something that PF groups won't ever do.
I assume that it would be very difficult to do that in a PF group so if clearing raids week one is too much of a time investment for the wrong reasons, I will wait for the guides. -
07-24-2021, 10:31 AMRilifaneEntry level gear and blind prog already makes a gigantic difference you seem to be underestimating and I don't think you're really in a position to judge it as harshly. Clearing savage and clearing savage 1st week are two entirely different things. Escpecially the last boss is a huge roadblock because it has a secret phase so you don't even have the slightest idea from doing normal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roeshel
If people go for clear races or even 1st week in general, 10h/ day is pretty normal.
Everyone knows in advance what's coming, so they take days off, take care of things they need to take care off etc. and then raid. It's only for a few days, afterwards they go back to having a few days a week with regular ties like 3h max.
And recording and talking about strategies is part of raiding. It's not 10h of straight chain pulling, things get discussed between pulls. Yes, a static is coordinated but the additional difficulty goes way beyond requiring a "I'm using my Samba here". Standard practice is doing a couple of chain pulls, everyone keeping their eyes peeled during tries, checking the recordings if nobody was able to clearly figure out what happend and chain pull again.
Even with breaks, concentrating for 10h is stressing and by hour 5+ you're not able to concentrate the same as someone that just now hopped into PF for some relaxed practice after chilling with their cat on the couch for a bit. You're on a timer and it adds mental pressure. But simply cutting it down to 5h isn't going to work either because if you're racing, you need the time even if people can no longer play at their absolute best.
And since nobody is able to play at their absolut best for 10h straight, you'll inevitably have some mistakes. -
07-25-2021, 07:53 AMKatie_Kitty
An easy way to identify that I personally prefer:
HC means the group wants to begin day 1 and clear everything by the end of day 7.
MC means the group wants to begin day 1 and clear everything in the first month.
Casual means everything else.
I know that's not exactly how recruiters use them, but that's how I see it. -
07-25-2021, 08:37 AMvan_arn
If you’re not putting in the time or hours for a week 1 clear, you’re not hardcore for that tier. No exceptions.
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07-25-2021, 10:24 AMSirCadogan
Back in wow during the Wrath expansion there was an raid encounter called “Three Drake” it was an achievement that basically made the encounter very difficult. At the time it was considered the hardest achievement in the game.
My guild was in a race with another guild for server first. Yeah we basically raided 8+ hours a night to get it done. We made server first and it was so not worth it.