Please implement something to teach players how to play

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I don't think telling people "you got a new skill! read the description and test it out!" would help if they refuse to try things for themselves. Seems like many players wilfully choose to do the bare minimum.

Shucks, it would appear i just described how people behave in all multiplayer games...

The thing is if people don’t have an interest in figuring the game out they won’t try to figure it out. The mechanics in this game are very simple. It should be common sense that a healer is expected to DPS, that AOE spells are almost always better to spam than single target when there’s 3+ targets, that pulling the max amount of mobs you can handle is ideal, etc. These things are really obvious to anyone who reads tooltips or uses critical thought to figure out how to maximize their potential. But the fact is not everyone has interest in doing such. They play games just to push buttons and get loots “efficiency” be damned

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Title. (and no, the smiths outdated tutorial doesn't count)

I'm getting sick of running dungeons, trials, etc. whatever the hell content, and people just don't have a clue.

The usual suspects are out:

- Healer who stands still, doesn't deal damage, cant even keep up with healing
- DPS who single targets mobs when you have like the entire dungeon on you
- Tanks who just sit there and pull 1 group at a time
- People at max level who have no damn idea how to play their class whatsoever (example: Fire 1 Mage at level 80.)

What the hell is going on?

I've been feeling like I'm some crazy elitist just because I have an expectation that you have like an iota of competence.

IDK, detract me. Thanks.

Also, Im not going to bother trying to teach people things in game. Been there, done that. You get screamed at.

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You can't teach someone who's not interested in learning. You can't get someone to put in effort when they feel the content is beneath them.

Those who are willing to learn and put in effort are doing it already.

I think that the best and most fair solution would be to have dungeons, trials, raids, etc. have an individual minimum DPS objective. If you fail to meet that objective you are not able to roll for loot or it doesn't count for quest completition.

Or add time objectives to dungeons, example finish within 20 minutes and you get bonus gil/exp/items, finish within 21-30 minutes and you get normal exp/gil/items, take more than 30 minutes and you don't get rewards.

They can implement it all they want. Doesn't mean people will use it. Heck an intermediate hall has been asked for for years. Part of the reason is a difference in culture between JP and the rest of the player base. They use the DF and PF differently. Most see what many NA and EU would call the bare minimum as unacceptable. As everyone tries their hardest to not be the one letting the group down. Even if we finally got something implemented you'd have the same people who give the typical responses to anyone asking nicely to improve groan and complain about it.

Specifically if it was handled like the ARR extremes and CT where you have to do them before continuing whatever expansion story you were going through. You know the whole ugh why do we gotta do this "hard" content? The games I play shouldn't feel like work. While also getting those who go and say things like oh well why should I have to do this when the rest of the content I do is so dang easy I could have my cat play for me. And why? Because why should it matter as long as we cleared it. Heck, there's people who have said as long as you have that sprout marker it's totally fine how they act or perform cause they're still a baby. You know even when you run into said sprout in Amurot. Which yes I did have that happen.

So, even though I would love it if we had a way in game that was there to actually help improve people's performance in such a way that you'd only know from them getting a title or gear that came from it I don't see it happening due to the Devs having been very leary of wanting to put something in.

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Originally Posted by lezard21

I think that the best and most fair solution would be to have dungeons, trials, raids, etc. have an individual minimum DPS objective. If you fail to meet that objective you are not able to roll for loot or it doesn't count for quest completition.

Or add time objectives to dungeons, example finish within 20 minutes and you get bonus gil/exp/items, finish within 21-30 minutes and you get normal exp/gil/items, take more than 30 minutes and you don't get rewards.

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My problem with this is it does help to breed a toxic environment. Getting better is gradual and not immediate progress so random groups on DF will only end up being at each other's throats if this has any bearing on group progress, looting or achievements.

You just need to deal with the simple fact of the matter that players won't meet your expectation. Then the other question is does your expectation of what constitutes 'good DPS' align with how SE would attune these values.

The biggest rule in teaching is you do not force someone to learn, ever. It is something you encourage over time, and progressively in creative ways. It just happens that SE is severely missing the mark on progressive and creative in this regard.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Title. (and no, the smiths outdated tutorial doesn't count)

I'm getting sick of running dungeons, trials, etc. whatever the hell content, and people just don't have a clue.

The usual suspects are out:

- Healer who stands still, doesn't deal damage, cant even keep up with healing
- Tanks who just sit there and pull 1 group at a time

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Some people play this game casually, hate to break it to you. Not everyone is going to be up to the same speed as you with the game.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

My problem with this is it does help to breed a toxic environment.

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The toxic environment already exists perpetuated by people who want to do less than the bare minimum expecting others to carry them and throwing tantrums when someone tries to explain them why they are doing things wrong.

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Originally Posted by Voison

Some people play this game casually, hate to break it to you. Not everyone is going to be up to the same speed as you with the game.

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Can't people play the game casually and do some semblance of a proper rotation, or aoe (ever)?

Wow did this, it lasted like an expansion and a half before they got rid of it.

Problem was it wasn't at all indicative of how an actual dungeon would go and depending on your class much, much harder than simply ..running a dungeon. And you had to do this to be able to enter heroic dungeons. It was a failed experiment. I'm a good, experienced player and it was a major PITA on some of my classes. It wasn't fun, it didn't teach me anything, and I don't know anyone who liked it or thought it was at all useful beyond basically being a gatekeeping function.

So yeah, we don't really need this in FF14, please and thank you.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Can't people play the game casually and do some semblance of a proper rotation, or aoe (ever)?

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The game even highlights what skills you are supposed to press in succession, so the "play casually" is a poor argument for active griefing.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Can't people play the game casually and do some semblance of a proper rotation, or aoe (ever)?

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Tutorial to new players are the greens sprouds quests! right in the beguinning of eatch capital. Usually at the inn. I been in 14 since remake of game, past 1.0. The learning curve of skills and dg are very satisfying. No problem to learn, cause i had previous exp with wow.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

To the above, is the solution just to make the game more challenging then?

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Honestly, yes.

The only real way to ensure the greatest coverage of learning is for said learning to seem inseparable from the game.

That's not an easy thing to follow up on, though. It requires well-crafted difficulty curves through careful situating of contexts and related actions, and it requires that those situations be engaging.

That said, the underlying idea to that, too, is rather simple: if you want people to learn your game, it needs to be a good game (and not just by its end).

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Originally Posted by lezard21

The toxic environment already exists perpetuated by people who want to do less than the bare minimum expecting others to carry them and throwing tantrums when someone tries to explain them why they are doing things wrong.

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Yes and this just augments that toxicity by attaching performance metrics to rewards. If you're in dungeons and 3/4 players barely even the minimum with one to snuff with everyone minimum item level then I'm sorry but the dungeon most likely isn't going to go as smooth as you'd like it to go. If that tank isn't comfortable enough doing full wall pulls, then that drags potentially other people through the dirt and negates their opportunity at a reward. People are bad enough without rewards attached, or penalties, let alone when you start attaching these things.

I get it, I really do. I get tired of people that can't be bothered, I get sick and tired of people that can't even be bothered running an essence in Delubrum and I've done this long enough for it to leave scars on my soul. But the simple fact of the matter remains is you cannot force someone to learn, and potentially punishing players that do care about their performance by creating time-based rewards or loots just creates conflict between players.

If people don't care about their efficiency or their time, then there's a fairly decent chance they aren't going to care for what forced learning you want to try and put them through.

Also if you want people to learn to AOE, maybe some DPS classes should be given AOE skills at lower levels so players have more time to adjust to that change in playstyle. *stares at DRG*

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

and tie completion to being able to progress the MSQ. (You may groan at that, but I groan at max levels not having a clue on how to play)

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I actually like it, and it's lore appropiate too. At certain points in the MSQ have an NPC testing your abilities with an actual hard solo instance that you are not able to fail and retry in Very Easy mode. You are not able to continue with the MSQ because the NPC won't trust you or deem you worthy for the challenges ahead till you clear the instance.

After all, would you send the Hero of the Floor Champion of the Vuln Stacks on a mission to save Planetos from the end of days?

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Originally Posted by lezard21

I actually like it, and it's lore appropiate too. At certain points in the MSQ have an NPC testing your abilities with an actual hard solo instance that you are not able to fail and retry in Very Easy mode. You are not able to continue with the MSQ because the NPC won't trust you or deem you worthy for the challenges ahead till you clear the instance.

After all, would you send the Hero of the Floor Champion of the Vuln Stacks on a mission to save Planetos from the end of days?

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lol square enix would never do this, so many players would quit

And not even necessarily bad players *points at my previous post about the time WoW did this*

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

I do agree that classes should have AOE access earlier, but then to counter, do people just look at those skills and decide they are just not a part of their kit?

When I got AOEs on DRG, I was ecstatic. The single target days were over!

I want people to keep in mind that Im mostly angry about level 70-80 people not having an idea. I feel like 30 levels of having access to an AOE should let you know its probably a thing.

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I wonder if part of it is some people not being used to classes with AOEs. I mained rogue in wow from launch until I came here 2 years ago, and it was 'lol what's an aoe' for most of the time playing that class, until FoK got buffed, except for blade flurry for one spec, but then they made blade flurry a cooldown instead of a toggle and meh)

Then I picked DRG and it was 'where my aoe I can't big deeps these packs you all keep pulling like madmen' lol

I still hate big pulls tbh. I always try to pull as many packs as I think a) the healer can heal through and b) we have the DPS for. This game is weird in that it's easier at higher levels to do that than lower levels lol

I… don’t know.

We get that large notifications when we learn a new skill & trait and yet we still see people be like i.e:“Omg since when Sacred Soil has regen effect???” at 80.

Is the notification not large enough? Wasn’t that enough to spur player to be interested & want to read their new tools? Apparently not every player do.

At the end of the day, if a player themselves doesn’t want to improve then they’re not going to, period.

Here some other ideas:

- A dungeon where the groups of mobs respawn if you don't pull and kill them altogether (like that Guildhest no one runs) to teach tanks to do wall to wall pulls
- A boss mechanic like Extreme Caution but that instead explodes if you don't deal X amount of damage in time to encourage people to learn and optimize their rotations
- A mechanic that places X amount of stacks on the Tank. Each time the tank is healed 1 stack is reduced. If it reaches 0, the tank gets a debuff that turns healing into damage. This will teach healers to use their oGCDs to heal and not overheal spam with GCDs.

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Originally Posted by SniperCT

lol square enix would never do this, so many players would quit

And not even necessarily bad players *points at my previous post about the time WoW did this*

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But isn't this what we always like to pat ourselves in the back about? That we are better than WoW? Surely people wouldn't quit but instead get better than WoW players

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Originally Posted by lezard21

Here some other ideas:

- A dungeon where the groups of mobs respawn if you don't pull and kill them altogether (like that Guildhest no one runs) to teach tanks to do wall to wall pulls
- A boss mechanic like Extreme Caution but that instead explodes if you don't deal X amount of damage in time to encourage people to learn and optimize their rotations
- A mechanic that places X amount of stacks on the Tank. Each time the tank is healed the stack is reduced. If it reaches 0, the tank gets a debuff that turns healing into damage. This will teach healers to use their oGCDs to heal and not overheal spam with GCDs.

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- If both the tank and healer are not adequate enough in that they can do wall to wall pulls then you run into the issue wherein that pull cannot be done as it will just spawn, and spawn, and spawn. Stagnating the dungeon progress.

- Learning is a progressive thing, they won't fail it and then magically succeed the following pull. There's a reason people spend a significant amount of time practicing on dummies.

- I hate to be that one guy, but this is on every member of the party as much as it is on the tank or healer. If a group has lower damage, these fights will last longer. Players will need to exhaust more tank cooldowns, when these cooldowns have been exhausted it will be more necessary to use GCDs instead of just oGCDs.

Many of these solutions, or proposals try to get people to learn, at the expense of punishing the others in the group - This is not how this should be done. If you want to encourage this in solo instances throughout the MSQ or want to encourage creative mechanics, or more difficult/stringent checks, then by all means go that route. But you shouldn't be punishing several other people for the inadequacies of other people in the group. I'd much rather just carry them on every single basis than deal with this. If they haven't learned their lesson by Level 66 on a basic class play or functionality, then the incorporation of these isn't going to magically make them succeed. They will still need to learn and that process is not instantaneous.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

- If both the tank and healer are not adequate enough in that they can do wall to wall pulls then you run into the issue wherein that pull cannot be done as it will just spawn, and spawn, and spawn. Stagnating the dungeon progress.

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Hard walls to progress, where properly situated, are not necessarily a bad thing.

Done well, they reveal many of the points of potential personal progress (learning opportunities) certain members simply foisted onto others instead of engaging with, thereby revealing exactly how to dismantle that wall.

I'd rather have dungeon progress stagnated briefly for what would become increasingly the rare exception among players than have all dungeon design creativity permanently stagnated by being limited to the lowest denominator among them.

____________________

To be clear, I don't think we need -- nor would I want -- external absolute prerequisites like Proving Grounds or complicators like reward-affecting performance metrics, even if largely just because I do not trust our devs to implement them with remotely sufficient quality. But I am more than happy not to limit our content to what can be face-rolled through on at most the first couple attempts.

So what you mean by 'teaching' is 'dictating' others how you want them to play? Gotcha.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

So what you mean by 'teaching' is 'dictating' others how you want them to play? Gotcha.

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The game already dictates you how you should play it. It's in the skill descriptions. What OP is saying is that a lot of people do not read these descriptions and continue using Fire 1 and Cure 1 in level 80 dungeons.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Title. (and no, the smiths outdated tutorial doesn't count)

I'm getting sick of running dungeons, trials, etc. whatever the hell content, and people just don't have a clue.

The usual suspects are out:

- Healer who stands still, doesn't deal damage, cant even keep up with healing
- DPS who single targets mobs when you have like the entire dungeon on you
- Tanks who just sit there and pull 1 group at a time
- People at max level who have no damn idea how to play their class whatsoever (example: Fire 1 Mage at level 80.)

What the hell is going on?

I've been feeling like I'm some crazy elitist just because I have an expectation that you have like an iota of competence.

IDK, detract me. Thanks.

Also, Im not going to bother trying to teach people things in game. Been there, done that. You get screamed at.

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That's literally because of the influx and good players unsubbing temporarily.

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Originally Posted by Voison

Some people play this game casually, hate to break it to you. Not everyone is going to be up to the same speed as you with the game.

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Then don't queue for group content, play solo. It's very simple.

On topic. You can't teach common sense, you either have it or you don't.

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Originally Posted by lezard21

Here some other ideas:

- A dungeon where the groups of mobs respawn if you don't pull and kill them altogether (like that Guildhest no one runs) to teach tanks to do wall to wall pulls
- A boss mechanic like Extreme Caution but that instead explodes if you don't deal X amount of damage in time to encourage people to learn and optimize their rotations
- A mechanic that places X amount of stacks on the Tank. Each time the tank is healed 1 stack is reduced. If it reaches 0, the tank gets a debuff that turns healing into damage. This will teach healers to use their oGCDs to heal and not overheal spam with GCDs.



But isn't this what we always like to pat ourselves in the back about? That we are better than WoW? Surely people wouldn't quit but instead get better than WoW players

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1) Wow did this. It's an annoying mechanic everytime they do it. Gauntlet runs don't teach you anything but rage lol
2) That's just an enrage mechanic

people will quit because they'll be FRUSTRATED. Because if they keep running into these walls that make it difficult to progress, it will affect their morale and they'll quit. Even good players can run into walls sometimes and it REALLY sucks to feel like crap because you can't do x mechanic in exactly the right way in order to be able to continue playing. Plus, it's HUGELY anti-accessibility. People with hand issues or reflex already have a hard enough time if they want to do anything more challenging than normal raids. (or normal raids for that matter). Thing is they'd have to make it challenging enough for the 'good' players that it could be impossible for players that don't meet whatever standards are assigned to those 'good' players.

However I don't think this dev team believes in punishing players in quite this way, so it'll never happen anyway, so it's really a moot point.

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Originally Posted by Pirana1

Then don't queue for group content, play solo. It's very simple.

On topic. You can't teach common sense, you either have it or you don't.

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Fun fact, MSQ requires grouping. If you want to level alt classes, you pretty much have to group too.

And FURTHERMORE casual does not = solo wtf

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Originally Posted by SniperCT

1) Wow did this. It's an annoying mechanic everytime they do it. Gauntlet runs don't teach you anything but rage lol
2) That's just an enrage mechanic

people will quit because they'll be FRUSTRATED. Because if they keep running into these walls that make it difficult to progress, it will affect their morale and they'll quit. Even good players can run into walls sometimes and it REALLY sucks to feel like crap because you can't do x mechanic in exactly the right way in order to be able to continue playing. Plus, it's HUGELY anti-accessibility. People with hand issues or reflex already have a hard enough time if they want to do anything more challenging than normal raids. (or normal raids for that matter). Thing is they'd have to make it challenging enough for the 'good' players that it could be impossible for players that don't meet whatever standards are assigned to those 'good' players.

However I don't think this dev team believes in punishing players in quite this way, so it'll never happen anyway, so it's really a moot point.



Fun fact, MSQ requires grouping. If you want to level alt classes, you pretty much have to group too.

And FURTHERMORE casual does not = solo wtf

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That would be correct. Then use some common sense and learn the class beforehand.

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Originally Posted by Pirana1

You can't teach common sense, you either have it or you don't.

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You can, unless you're working off some wonky definition by which teaching can only refer to explicit step-by-step instruction. (And even then, it can be taught. You'll just have probably killed any motivation to bother learning.)

In any less artificially confined sense of teaching, well, that's exactly how common sense becomes common.

There's a super easy way to not have to deal with those people. Don't let the game randomly match you. Get out there, make friends with like-minded folks, and go on your merry way.

Is that saying that you can't have personal expectations? No. I have plenty of folks I group with who make me groan.

But if you aren't going to lift a finger to control the environment you game in and instead just lazily let the game choose for you, then you should temper those expectations and be understanding that others may not have the same viewpoint. If it's that horrendous, then just leave. Otherwise, see if you can make the experience positive and lead by example. Will you have to carry sometimes? Yep. But that's the cover charge for putting your fate in the hands of a random matching system.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Hard walls to progress, where properly situated, are not necessarily a bad thing.

Done well, they reveal many of the points of potential personal progress (learning opportunities) certain members simply foisted onto others instead of engaging with, thereby revealing exactly how to dismantle that wall.

I'd rather have dungeon progress stagnated briefly for what would become increasingly the rare exception among players than have all dungeon design creativity permanently stagnated by being limited to the lowest denominator among them.

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Like I said the problem here is that if someone has not learned their basic class, or functionality by Level 66, for example. Then they aren't going to magically learn this within that dungeon. In a very short frame, unless these checks are so drastically under-tuned. - It goes back to the whole process of you can't force someone to learn. If they haven't shown that willingness after a metric tonne of levels, then a mentality change isn't going to happen. More often than not you're dealing with the lack of willingness to learn than you are dealing with someone who just generally misunderstands, especially in the later levels.

I'm not spending my time in a dungeon waiting for someone to potentially be indoctrinated into a new line of thinking if they haven't already adopted said thinking prior. Hence why I said, or at least implied such things belong in solo instances where it has no bearing on people that respect their own time.

Creating the opportunity is one thing, having people seize or take advantage of is entirely separate.

This entire thread reeks of the elitism I thought we were supposed to be above.

Also wtf groups have you people been getting, I've almost never run into players who weren't playing decently (or were unwilling to accept some advice when they were clearly new and learning) and I've been mainlining leveling dungeon roulettes for weeks. My negative experiences have been mostly from mentors but that's to be expected lol

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Like I said the problem here is that if someone has not learned their basic class, or functionality by Level 66, for example. Then they aren't going to magically learn this within that dungeon. In a very short frame, unless these checks are so drastically under-tuned. - It goes back to the whole process of you can't force someone to learn. If they haven't shown that willingness after a metric tonne of levels, then a mentality change isn't going to happen. More often than not you're dealing with the lack of willingness to learn than you are dealing with someone who just generally misunderstands, especially in the later levels.

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Consider what goes into that willingness, though.

Or, consider it from the opposite end: What point is there in expending that effort? If I have ostensibly nothing to gain from doing so (assuming, even, the path were clear -- which it usually is not), and the effort itself is not enjoyable... why would I bother?

That's the problem the devs have increasingly set for themselves. They've diminished the rewards, obfuscated the path, and made the early-level combat experience increasingly a slog.

If they want the community to behave differently, then they should give them contexts that warrant different behaviors.

Yes, there is by now a huge sense of inertia, or generalized expectations, they'd have to push back against, but once they get the boulder rolling to turn those expectations around, the community cannot help but snowball the changes the devs will have impelled.

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Originally Posted by Drakonic

That's literally because of the influx and good players unsubbing temporarily.

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Yep, it's a lul period in the game now where all content has been out for awhile, and nothing new until expansion. A good chunk of better players don't spend much time or any at all. Why even do roulettes when we have been best-in-slot for months because of savage? Anyone doing that stuff now is likely filling whatever is left on capping alt jobs, newer, or the like.

There will be a dramatic difference in overall player performance during expansion early access, it's always like this.

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Originally Posted by lezard21

Or add time objectives to dungeons, example finish within 20 minutes and you get bonus gil/exp/items, finish within 21-30 minutes and you get normal exp/gil/items, take more than 30 minutes and you don't get rewards.

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no. then you get people just speed running things. doesnt make them any better. you get people angry because someone might want to read things or watch a cutscene... so.. no, not a good idea

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

no. then you get people just speed running things. doesnt make them any better. you get people angry because someone might want to read things or watch a cutscene... so.. no, not a good idea

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There is a time bonus for clearing Dalriada first boss pretty quickly, the 3rd chest with 60 coins.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

My problem with this is it does help to breed a toxic environment. Getting better is gradual and not immediate progress so random groups on DF will only end up being at each other's throats if this has any bearing on group progress, looting or achievements.

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Yep, exactly. This is not the solution.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Consider what goes into that willingness, though.

Or, consider it from the opposite end: What point is there in expending that effort? If I have ostensibly nothing to gain from doing so (assuming, even, the path were clear -- which it usually is not), and the effort itself is not enjoyable... why would I bother?

That's the problem the devs have increasingly set for themselves. They've diminished the rewards, obfuscated the path, and made the early-level combat experience increasingly a slog.

If they want the community to behave differently, then they should give them contexts that warrant different behaviors.

Yes, there is by now a huge sense of inertia, or generalized expectations, they'd have to push back against, but once they get the boulder rolling to turn those expectations around, the community cannot help but snowball the changes the devs will have impelled.

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Again, incorporate or encourage this process of learning into the solo duties through the creative use of mechanics or systems that help to encourage the process of learning. It should be something that has no bearing on other people, especially if it is something that seemingly does potentially punish other players.

If we want to look into a direction that involves encouraging learning, whilst still incorporating them into the dungeon then a bonus exp/tome checkpoints could be included to help encourage this. E.g. you hit the goal of doing x, y, or z then you get a checkmark that provides bonus exp or tomestones. This could be anything from the execution of an ability a certain amount of time, or a limitation therein. Then you have the point of expanding that effort from a personal perspective without necessarily involving mechanics that seemingly punish players for bad play, but rather rewarding people for good play.

My issue with the suggested list is it wasn't rewarding players for good play, you were effectively punishing them within the duty itself for not performing up to a baseline.

I'm all for a new context that encourages different behavior, but forcing this process, or punishing for not meeting this behavior baseline won't sit well with players. EXP multipliers to individual bosses for correct, proper, or efficient execution of mechanics, be it fight or job mechanics would be a great way to start.

I don't want to have to worry about that healer potentially killing themselves or the tank, just because someone decided that adding a stacking mechanic to GCD heals was a great way to try and force players into something. Especially when more often than not more damage on the bosses will translate to faster kills, which means the boss does fewer mechanics and overall a smaller window for mistakes. So this rides as much on the DPS playing their job correctly in addition to the tank, yet someone wanted to propose the bizarre idea for potentially punishing the healer, or potentially making their life even more difficult for trying to compensate?

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

You are 100% correct that I could just 4 man it, or however man it, and just avoid the problem.

However, there just seems to be a lot of apologists for bad players... Its not that they are permanently bad either, they just don't attempt to improve because they aren't forced to by the game...

I don't really know how to put it, but like why are people level 80, but play their kit like they have moves up to level 10 only. (Arbitrary example level) I think thats a problem.

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I'm a bit like SniperCT here and wondering where all these horrible players are. I almost exclusively PuG since my FC is tiny and my friends take breaks, and in 7 years of playing I just don't have that many stories about THOSE players. Seen plenty who may have been struggling for one reason or another. Helped where I could, muddled through where I couldn't.

You also have to consider content. MSQ is something the entire spectrum of playstyles need to go through. So, yep, it's going to be pretty faceroll and there are a lot of folks in the game who never step past that level of content that you may run into. Can either approach it with a negative attitude and be miserable or try to find something positive or fun in it.