What's the point of 10 Disciple of the Hand ability slots -

If we're only allowed to use five abilities?

Why would we equip ten abilities and randomize what turns up when it's far easier just to equip five good abilities which you get all the time and eliminate all the randomness?

Also, please fix the typo on the Flame Sergeant's Choker. I have no idea what "Crititical" means.

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Originally Posted by Catharsis

If we're only allowed to use five abilities?

Why would we equip ten abilities and randomize what turns up when it's far easier just to equip five good abilities which you get all the time and eliminate all the randomness?

Also, please fix the typo on the Flame Sergeant's Choker. I have no idea what "Crititical" means.

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5 turn up at a time

use 1 and it wont show up again

use another its off the list til the next synth too

itl make more sense if you think about that aspect of it

I don't think you quite understand, so let me explain again, slowly.

We are able to pick up to 10 abilities, but only 5 are usable per synth. If you equip more than five abilities, five of them are chosen at RANDOM for you to use. If you equip only five abilities, you are guaranteed to get those five abilities all the time.

Why equip more than five abilities and randomize the skills you get? What is the point of the extra five skill slots?

Answer: bad design.

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Originally Posted by Catharsis

I don't think you quite understand, so let me explain again, slowly.

We are able to pick up to 10 abilities, but only 5 are usable per synth. If you equip more than five abilities, five of them are chosen at RANDOM for you to use. If you equip only five abilities, you are guaranteed to get those five abilities all the time.

Why equip more than five abilities and randomize the skills you get? What is the point of the extra five skill slots?

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im a crafter with 50 in every craft

you dont understand that ive done this


you only have 5 that show up per "attacmept" at a synth

so 5 show up to start
then it randomizes 5 that are left, then randomizes them again and so on and so forth

its not "heres 5 you have to deal with only those 5 for the entire synth"

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

im a crafter with 50 in every craft

you dont understand that ive done this


you only have 5 that show up per "attacmept" at a synth

so 5 show up to start
then it randomizes 5 that are left, then randomizes them again and so on and so forth

its not "heres 5 you have to deal with only those 5 for the entire synth"

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No, they changed the system to 5 per synth, chosen randomly. It's really clear in the patch notes.

To answer the OP: So that you choose which abilities you wish to use depending on the synthesis you're carrying out and what the end-all will be.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

im a crafter with 50 in every craft

you dont understand that ive done this


you only have 5 that show up per "attacmept" at a synth

so 5 show up to start
then it randomizes 5 that are left, then randomizes them again and so on and so forth

its not "heres 5 you have to deal with only those 5 for the entire synth"

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Three questions:

1)Are you high? Due to your English, I have no idea what you're trying to say, but it looks like a very bad description of the old system pre-patch.
2)Have you tried crafting since the patch?
3)Can you not assume that I'm not familiar with the crafting system myself?

@Wolfie: Seems like really idiotic design. Why not just change the cap for equippable skills to 5?

@Answa: But you *don't* get to cherry pick out of the 10 abilities you pick - the 5 the game gives you are completely random out of the ten you equipped, so you can't pick according to situation.

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Originally Posted by Answa

No, they changed the system to 5 per synth, chosen randomly. It's really clear in the patch notes.

To answer the OP: So that you choose which abilities you wish to use depending on the synthesis you're carrying out and what the end-all will be.

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ok thats all someone had to say, i didnt realize they changed it this patch....

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Originally Posted by Catharsis

@Wolfie: Seems like really idiotic design. Why not just change the cap for equippable skills to 5?

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Well... beats me why they didn't think about their design more. But you might want to make this topic again in the crafting section and give them an in-depth analysis of why it's bad design.

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Originally Posted by Catharsis

@Answa: But you *don't* get to cherry pick out of the 10 abilities you pick - the 5 the game gives you are completely random out of the ten you equipped, so you can't pick according to situation.

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You can. Unequip the ones you don't want.

I don't mean situation during synthesis. I mean depending on what you want from your synthesis.

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Originally Posted by Answa

You can. Unequip the ones you don't want.

I don't mean situation during synthesis. I mean depending on what you want from your synthesis.

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Well, obviously. But I just meant there's no point in giving us 10 slots now, and filling up every single ability slot may actually be detrimental to your crafting experience, which is counterproductive to good game design (unless you really like randomness). If the patch was going to do this, they should just have limited us to 5 equippable abilities.

@Wolfie: Nah, now that I've ranted about it, I've got all the catharsis I need. I'll just wait until a mod shifts the thread there - let them earn their keep.

Also: Bold Endeavour is mislabelled. It only lasts 1 step and it only seems to guarantee success, not great success. The quality testers need to step up their game.

If they want to keep it at five they should at least change it so they apear in the order you set them.

So you start with your top fix and they stay till you use one, then the once in the sixth slot moves up.

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

If they want to keep it at five they should at least change it so they apear in the order you set them.

So you start with your top fix and they stay till you use one, then the once in the sixth slot moves up.

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It all goes back to that being the old system.

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Originally Posted by Answa

It all goes back to that being the old system.

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Well, at least that way it wouldn't be random. You'd always know which was dropping in next.

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Originally Posted by Catharsis

@Wolfie: Seems like really idiotic design. Why not just change the cap for equippable skills to 5?

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Probably, simplicity or impossibility in coding. It's likely that the '10 slots' is far too deeply ingrained in the crafting system from previous incarnations that they cannon remove it. That, or changing that would take far too much effort that would prevent the ability adjustments from being done due to balance reasons until it's done, so instead they push the balance changes, make a makeshift jury-rig for that (the random 5) and simply assume that players will be smart enough not to actually go over that cap to get what they want.

Well setting 10, but getting a random selection of only 5 each synth is probably AOKAY and practical for quick, I don't care to aim for an HQ/ making a lot of different synths all at once.

Picking your 'fave 5' and only setting those, is best for attempting hard HQ's and/or long synths on the SAME item over and over.

Take my BTN, when I was leveling it up once I learned: Sweat of Brow it was the ONLY skill I had on my tool bar while I was exping so that it would Proc more often. If however, I wanted to harvest a specific item (pre level 50) I would take it off my bar and add in better abilities for item looking up. Some people just equipped as many actions as they could. Both are viable strategies.

No it's not. DoL jobs don't have a limit on the amount of procs possible at any one site, it just uses a mutually exclusive system. Equipping more skills theoretically gives an advantage because the chance of getting any positive effect whatsoever increases.

With DoH, if you're trying to grind for quick synths, you can just use Piece by Piece > By the Book > Grand Design > Tricks of the Trade to get 100% and any randomness with that would just slow you down. You could pick another "best 5" skills if aiming for quality, but that was just an example.

You're complaining that there are 5 extra squares there that could potentially be filled but instead it's optimal to leave them blank?

I mean, I can see how it's not perfect, but I can't understand how it can possibly be detrimental to the gameplay experience.


Also, if you do plan on posting this in the crafting section, I'd advise you to be quite a bit less of a jerk. You'll likely get more thoughtful and thorough responses that way.

quick guessed answer,
Crafting quests to unlock recipes in the future.
Possibly gear and guest to unlock the other 5

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Originally Posted by Catharsis

No it's not. DoL jobs don't have a limit on the amount of procs possible at any one site, it just uses a mutually exclusive system. Equipping more skills theoretically gives an advantage because the chance of getting any positive effect whatsoever increases.

With DoH, if you're trying to grind for quick synths, you can just use Piece by Piece > By the Book > Grand Design > Tricks of the Trade to get 100% and any randomness with that would just slow you down. You could pick another "best 5" skills if aiming for quality, but that was just an example.

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So reset your '5' skills between each new synth type as fits your need. If we were limited to 5 slots, you'd still need to do this. What is the harm in letting those of us who don't see this being THAT important set up to 10 skills we really like and letting them sit there.

10 slots give people more flexability at the price of being precise. You enjoy precise...awesome, so set your 5 abilities, craft, then reset them for the next craft as needed. I'll just set my 10 and be done with it.

Off-topic: I don't know if DOL changed, but once something procs on my BTN, it stays proced the rest of the harvest...and back when I was leveling I noticed the less abilities I had set, the more often the ones I actually wanted (like Sweat of Brow) would proc. This of course could have changed. But it was true when I leveled.

But to go back to your point: When I was leveling BTN I didn't want ANY positive effect, I wanted Sweat of Brow for it's exp effect. All the other skills were nice, but not what I needed when my main goal was leveling. Every time they proced instead of Sweat of Brow just meant I missed a chance for Sweat of Brow to proc. It IS the same thing as your crafting consern, just in a different way.

Basically, if you want something very specific and precise, set your abilities that way. If however, you just like rolling with a setup that is 'generally' good, then set more abilities and know that it's a bit of a dice-roll. Either way, the 10 set system supports your desires. No need to change it.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Answer: bad design.

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I can't believe I agree with Wolfie..

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

So reset your '5' skills between each new synth type as fits your need. If we were limited to 5 slots, you'd still need to do this. What is the harm in letting those of us who don't see this being THAT important set up to 10 skills we really like and letting them sit there.

10 slots give people more flexability at the price of being precise. You enjoy precise...awesome, so set your 5 abilities, craft, then reset them for the next craft as needed. I'll just set my 10 and be done with it.

Off-topic: I don't know if DOL changed, but once something procs on my BTN, it stays proced the rest of the harvest...and back when I was leveling I noticed the less abilities I had set, the more often the ones I actually wanted (like Sweat of Brow) would proc. This of course could have changed. But it was true when I leveled.

But to go back to your point: When I was leveling BTN I didn't want ANY positive effect, I wanted Sweat of Brow for it's exp effect. All the other skills were nice, but not what I needed when my main goal was leveling. Every time they proced instead of Sweat of Brow just meant I missed a chance for Sweat of Brow to proc. It IS the same thing as your crafting consern, just in a different way.

Basically, if you want something very specific and precise, set your abilities that way. If however, you just like rolling with a setup that is 'generally' good, then set more abilities and know that it's a bit of a dice-roll. Either way, the 10 set system supports your desires. No need to change it.

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I guess I'm dealing with the slow crowd today, so let me repeat this in bold, even:

Randomly choosing 5 abilities from 10 abilities equipped does NOT give you more flexibility.

Let me use a simple allegory since it might make you more susceptible to logic - you want to make a sandwich-esque breakfast and you have ten ingredients on the table to do so - Bread, Hot-dog Buns, Ham, Butter, Lettuce, Onions, Tomatoes, Cheese, Mayonnaise and Sausages. Now if you could only use 5 ingredients, and you were to pick 5 of them completely at random, you do NOT have more flexibility with those 5 ingredients than hand-picking ingredients that actually make sense.

But you could enjoy trying to put together a coherent sandwich with Mayonnaise, Butter, Tomatoes, Lettuce and Onions. If that's really your kind of thing.

You're complaining about such a nonsensical thing, it's sooooo hard to just set 5 abilities, who gives if it says 10, just set 5 and stop complaining. Have you even tried synthesizing this update really have you? It's a lot smoother and the abilities are a lot more effective that being limited to 5 is just as useful as when we were able to use 10. So seriously rather then complain about something so minuscule, just take the 5 seconds it takes to take off 5/10 abilities and craft lol.

At least for XPing, the random ability selections makes things a bit more interesting as you can't take the same approach each time. It took me a long time to realize that I was miraculously crafting without the TV on. :p

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Originally Posted by Catharsis

I guess I'm dealing with the slow crowd today, so let me repeat this in bold, even:

Randomly choosing 5 abilities from 10 abilities equipped does NOT give you more flexibility.

Let me use a simple allegory since it might make you more susceptible to logic - you want to make a sandwich-esque breakfast and you have ten ingredients on the table to do so - Bread, Hot-dog Buns, Ham, Butter, Lettuce, Onions, Tomatoes, Cheese, Mayonnaise and Sausages. Now if you could only use 5 abilities, and you were to pick 5 of them completely at random, you do NOT have more flexibility with those 5 ingredients than hand-picking ingredients that actually make sense.

But you could enjoy trying to put together a coherent sandwich with Mayonnaise, Butter, Tomatoes, Lettuce and Onions. If that's really your kind of thing.

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God you need to go take a class in being polite:

Look let me be frank:

It's not like making your freakin' sandwich example, because out of the 10 abilities you can equip, several of them do 'almost' the same thing. Also, no one forces you to use all 5 actions each synth... I've commonly eaten Tomato sandwiches that only were bread,mayo and tomoatoes... and I've commonly synthed stuff without needing to use 5 abilities each and every synth.

I am saying that you set your 10 best abilities KNOWING that you'll only randomly have access to 5. It's still a decent way to exp via leves, and do basic crafting. Now, if you are crafting something that requires specific skills then yes, set your actions accordingly. But some people will favor convience (setting 10 good most of the time abilities even though you only have the chance to randomly use 5) over precision. It's okay...it doesn't affect you personally in ANY way.

So basically, set your 5 precious abilities and Shut-up. Leave us 'slow' people alone.

Now off to eat a Tomato Sandwich...mmmm yummy tomato sandwich

Lol, fun thread. In fairness, I have not done any crafting since the patch. I just want to make sure that I understand fully: Are your random 5 abilities locked in from the start of the synth? When I read the patch notes, I assumed that the random 5 would be on a per-step basis, but they are on a per-synth basis? The first 5 abilities that turn up will be the same 5 abilities throughout the entire synth? If that's the case, then:

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Answer: bad design.

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i.e.: No sense.

However, if the cast of abilities changes every step, then it does offer more flexibility at the cost of precision. I think that this is what has been unclear for many readers and a few posters on this thread. Once again, I haven't crafted since the patch, so disregard as needed.

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Originally Posted by Catharsis

I guess I'm dealing with the slow crowd today, so let me repeat this in bold, even:

Randomly choosing 5 abilities from 10 abilities equipped does NOT give you more flexibility.

Let me use a simple allegory since it might make you more susceptible to logic - you want to make a sandwich-esque breakfast and you have ten ingredients on the table to do so - Bread, Hot-dog Buns, Ham, Butter, Lettuce, Onions, Tomatoes, Cheese, Mayonnaise and Sausages. Now if you could only use 5 ingredients, and you were to pick 5 of them completely at random, you do NOT have more flexibility with those 5 ingredients than hand-picking ingredients that actually make sense.

But you could enjoy trying to put together a coherent sandwich with Mayonnaise, Butter, Tomatoes, Lettuce and Onions. If that's really your kind of thing.

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The problem lies with your ingrediants. At lvl 50 you can spam Standard with no abilites and finish the synth if you dont care to HQ. This will lead most people to stack careful+ and quaility+ abilites for HQ since they dont need abilites for NQ synth. For me thats 5 different kinds of cheese, couple different kinds of mustard, and couple meats to choose from. I'm gonna a have decent sandwich no matter how it plays out. They way you are choosing your 10 abilites/ingrediants isnt logical.

At 50
set these
Byregot's Blessing (+100% Quality 3 steps)
Perfection (Careful Great Success 1 step)
Culmination (Great Success 1 step)
Master's Mend (+30 Great amount of Durability back)
Piece by Piece (+30% Progress -0 Durability)
This gave me 3 careful at 80-100 Quality, 2 Careful at 130-150 Quality and the ability to do 6-7 more Careful at 45-60 Quality capping HQ.

need more info on what to use, go here http://xivpads.com/?-Guides&Guide:_H...all_the_things

plus, wait for quests to get the other 5 not in use or for SE to limit to 5 slots and remove the random part.
Looking for news on this by 1.22a on 5/10

i really hope this is a bug and will be fixed i want to get my 10 abilities to use even at random

Nope, already got a reply

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

Greetings,

As others have mentioned in the thread, the reason for this limitation has to do with striking a balance based on the adjusted effects of the abilities.

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Wow at 90% of the people reading this thread not even understanding it.

To answer your question, there is no point. It's terrible game design.

There is no legitimate reason to want to have 5 random abilities for the duration of an entire synth. They should have just capped us at 5 abilities if they were going to do this.

Ya, the OP could use a lesson in manners, but he is completely correct with what he is saying.

It will never be beneficial to dilute your pool of 5 great abilities with 5 that aren't as good for your current task. The ability to set 10 skills is meaningless, since you should only ever be setting the 5 most optimal abilities.

This could be poor design, unless they allow quests or gear in the future to let you use more than 5 abilities in one synth.

I guess Catharsis kind of got a little impatient of people not understanding his point. Yes he could've been more diplomatic on the topic but I totally agree with his point. It's completely unnecessary to have 10 abilities and having 5 random picked abilities out of 10 renders your ability to craft rather useless. People need to understand that just because the game is that way doesn't mean is effective, it only is illogical and irrational.

Ask yourself this. If you go to a 5 star restaurant that serve high quality burgers and they bring you a random burger from either Mcdonald's or Burger King because a burger is a burger either way, will you be fine with that? Or better yet, will you gamble away your precious materials that you've worked so hard to get just to lose them in a volatile synthesis procedure?

As the thread starter said, if a chaotic craft is the thrill you get off on is your concept of "fun" then you might as well go play the Russian Roulette.

Whats the point in being an irritating jerk?

*walks away whistling*

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Originally Posted by SirOleas

Whats the point in being an irritating jerk?

*walks away whistling*

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Is that an attempt to annoy someone? How about we just focus on the subject please?

Yup, terrible design.

They'll probably be going back over all this in 2.0, though.

They're revamping crafting come 2.0. Yes, right now it doesn't make much sense but it's also not that big of a deal to request a change right now.

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Originally Posted by Vangoh_Delacroix

Is that an attempt to annoy someone? How about we just focus on the subject please?

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I actually agree that the topic at hand needs to be looked at/fixed/whatever.
Without the seeming requirement of being an irritating jerk.

But hey, I suppose nothing gets done around these parts unless you act like a complete ass.